Free Will

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Anastacia

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Oct 23, 2010
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Post #1 No scripture for choice
#2 no scripture for choice
#3 no scripture for choice
#4 no scripture for choice
#5 no scripture for choice -- the dude is a slave to what he DOESN'T want to do!
#6 had one that could be used for that, but it doesn't state it. I will grant that one, though.
#7 no scripture for choice
#8 no scripture for choice
#9 no scripture for choice
#10 no scripture for choice This post gave two, but they do not openly state free choice, and are actively used by those who believe no free choice.
#11no scripture for choice
#12no scripture for choice
#13no scripture for choice
#14no scripture for choice
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#23no scripture for choice
#24no scripture for choice
#25no scripture for choice
#26no scripture for choice
#27no scripture for choice
#28no scripture for choice
#29no scripture for choice

#30 is your post, and you gave 3 that can be used to support choice, but they do not state choice. How do we not know that they love those that love, and hate those that hate, by God's decree? Or that they love those that hate them, by God's decree or woking in them to do it? (He works in us both to desire and to do His perfect will, for example?) I will grant you these three, but they do not state free choice, per se. So technically, I still hold that none have been given, that can be argued against.

#31 no scripture for choice
#32 no scripture for choice
#33 no scripture for choice
#34 no scripture for choice
#35 no scripture for choice

#36 FINALLY GAVE ONE! Good stuff. This one is so blunt, it cannot be argued with except those who willfully choose to forget. Hey, could that be one being referred to here?

#37no scripture for choice
#38no scripture for choice
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#57no scripture for choice

#58 Here you gave a fair number of scriptures. Good. I really like seeing that. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 supports free choice. Jer. 5:23 can be used for support of free choice, but it is also decried by the nay-sayers of free choice. Some of the other scriptures are actively used for purporting no free choice. All the others are used for both camps, depending upon one's predispostion on this topic. So I see that you actually only gave one scripture that openly stated free choice. Some of the others openly stated that God hardened their hearts. Poor choice of scriptures to "bolster" free choice, it would seem. If one gives scripture, they must be undeniably clear for one's position, and definitely not used by the other camp to state a case against you. We must use undeniable scriptures, I think. I could be wrong, though.

So far, the count is 3 scriptures, with one flat out saying it, the other two giving no option in the matter but free choice, it would seem to be clear on.

#59no scripture for choice
#60no scripture for choice
#61no scripture for choice

#62 three scriptures were given -- Heb. 11:6, and Acts 17:27. Heb. 11:6 can be used for the no choice side of the debate. Again, that verse depends upon one's view coming into the fray. Acts 17:27 is used the same way. So is Rom. 11:25
I agree with you, and with Saber on this topic, but these scriptures are used by the other camp. Obviously, then, there's issue with them being used for free choice. We are still at one blunt scripture, and two "no other option" scriptures, to use that phrase freely in this case.

#63no scripture for choice
#64no scripture for choice

#65 was my post that you took issue with in which I stated that no one gave scripture for the free choice side of the debate.

Yes, I used a broad stroke of the brush and painted all with it, errantly. My apologies. Thank you for the correction.

However, it seems that very little indeed was actually given from scripture that flat out states free choice. So far, "free choice" has 3, but only one undeniable scripture by the other camp. "no choice" has a lot more than three. It was upon this that I made my statement. Sorry.

It looks like there's been a few given since then. But is there a whole slug of them, or not?


Surf Rider, I don't agree with you about how many scriptures here prove we have a choice. More scriptures are posted in this thread that proves choice then what you say there is. No scripture in the Bible proves Calvinism. And I have to stand up with DiDasKaLos on this, because you come off confusing on the topic. You sound indecisive about what you believe, even though you say you don't believe in Calvinism, it is as if you sometimes defend it. You not only are confusing to the reader on what you believe, but it also a bit confusing on your attitude to some of us here.

Now, for the scriptures that prove a choice....all the scriptures I posted about why people don't believe, those are scriptures about people with a choice.


They love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. That's a choice. They don't come to the light out of fear.... These are the words of God.

They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost. They chose to resist the Holy Ghost.

They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations-- They chose to walk in ways not good and pursue their own imaginations. They decided what they would do.

They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him. This scripture even says they "chose"!!!

That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, This whole passage is about how they chose!!!

They exchange the truth of God for a lie. This is a choice. Show me how it isn't.

They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil. To reject is a choice. To follow evil is a choice.

They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God. Not thinking something is worthwhile...that's a choice.

They are hostile to God. Being hostile is a choice.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Refusing is a choice, so is loving.

They have been deceived by sin. I think they allowed themselves to be deceived by sin.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. I think they allowed the god of this age to blind them.

Their minds are on earthly things. They chose what they put their minds on.

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. They could choose harder to search for the Truth.

There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. They choose to fall away. They chose to give up!!!

They are stubborn and follow their own devices. They chose what devices to follow. Does the scripture say they were forced? No.

They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze. They choose to be stubborn.

They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away. They choose to be rebellious.

They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward. They choose to follow the the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts.

They have stubborn pride. They choose to be stubborn and prideful.

They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways. They chose to refuse.

Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow? They chose to be like a heifer and not like a lamb.


John 3; Acts 7:51; Isaiah 65:2; Isaiah 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 1:25; Romans 2:8; Romans 1:28; Romans 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19;

Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; Jeremiah 7:24: Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16



How did you miss all those?
 

Surf Rider

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Dec 17, 2009
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in the kingdom of heaven right now
Surf Rider, I don't agree with you about how many scriptures here prove we have a choice. More scriptures are posted in this thread that proves choice then what you say there is. No scripture in the Bible proves Calvinism. And I have to stand up with DiDasKaLos on this, because you come off confusing on the topic. You sound indecisive about what you believe, even though you say you don't believe in Calvinism, it is as if you sometimes defend it. You not only are confusing to the reader on what you believe, but it also a bit confusing on your attitude to some of us here.

Now, for the scriptures that prove a choice....all the scriptures I posted about why people don't believe, those are scriptures about people with a choice.


They love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. That's a choice. They don't come to the light out of fear.... These are the words of God.

They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost. They chose to resist the Holy Ghost.

They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations-- They chose to walk in ways not good and pursue their own imaginations. They decided what they would do.

They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him. This scripture even says they "chose"!!!

That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, This whole passage is about how they chose!!!

They exchange the truth of God for a lie. This is a choice. Show me how it isn't.

They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil. To reject is a choice. To follow evil is a choice.

They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God. Not thinking something is worthwhile...that's a choice.

They are hostile to God. Being hostile is a choice.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Refusing is a choice, so is loving.

They have been deceived by sin. I think they allowed themselves to be deceived by sin.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. I think they allowed the god of this age to blind them.

Their minds are on earthly things. They chose what they put their minds on.

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. They could choose harder to search for the Truth.

There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. They choose to fall away. They chose to give up!!!

They are stubborn and follow their own devices. They chose what devices to follow. Does the scripture say they were forced? No.

They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze. They choose to be stubborn.

They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away. They choose to be rebellious.

They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward. They choose to follow the the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts.

They have stubborn pride. They choose to be stubborn and prideful.

They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways. They chose to refuse.

Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow? They chose to be like a heifer and not like a lamb.


John 3; Acts 7:51; Isaiah 65:2; Isaiah 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 1:25; Romans 2:8; Romans 1:28; Romans 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19;

Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; Jeremiah 7:24: Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16



How did you miss all those?

acts 7:51 O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do.
I agree that it speaks of free choice, but the other camp does not. They state that "You always resist" is because they have no choice. This verse is used by both campls. It doesn't state free choice: it implies it. they hold that it doesn't state it, and it implies no free choice. I stand by my statement on this one.

Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out My hands all the day to a rebellious people who walk in the way not good, after their own thoughts
Ditto

Isaiah 65:11 But you are those who forsake Jehovah, who forget My holy mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who furnish the drink offering to Fate
ditto

Isa 65:12 Therefore I will number you to the sword; and you will all bow down to the slaughter; because I called and you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear and did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I did not delight.
Here's one. Thanks. I guess that I missed it. Sorry.

Rom. 1:19 Because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Does not state free choice. Free choice is implied if you believe in free choice. No free choice is implied if you believe in no free choice.

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Ditto

Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
ditto

Rom. 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Ditto

Rom. 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
Ditto

Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,
Ditto

Rom. 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be
This one is used strongly by the no free choice camp, as it states that it CAN'T be subject to God or His law, thus they use it for their position. This is why I said that some of the scriptures that you used were a poor choice in debating the free choice. If you believe in free choice, this one can be used, but it is used equally strongly by the opposition, if not more so.

Heb. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Again, this is used by the opposition, as hardening can be done by God, such as with Pharaoh, and hardening is not stated as choice per se, but is a result of continuing in a certain state, as per some of the Romans verses you tried to appropriate into this debate. Again, see the statements for the previous verse.

2 Cor. 4:3 But also if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost,
This is used strongly by the no free choice camp. This is a second verse that I wondered why you used it, when it would seem to clearly state against your position by the opposition.

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.
This is used by the opposition. I was surprised that you used it, as it would speak against your position, by itself. You give these verses by theemselves. As such, they must stand by themselves. Listing verses together can be construed to mean that they are to be tied together, but until that is done, actually shown how they tie together, many will not see that in the verses given, as they do not believe your position on them.


Phil. 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, those who mind earthly things.
Doesn't speak anything about free choice. It merely states that they mind earthly things. Why? They are earthly minded. There mind hasn't been renewed in Christ, obviously. Thus, they are "a slave to sin", as Romans states. This, too, was a very poor choice of scripture on your part.



and now I have to go. I'll get back to this, this evening.
 

Anastacia

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Oct 23, 2010
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Surfrider, I'll reply to you in green.

acts 7:51 O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do.
I agree that it speaks of free choice, but the other camp does not. They state that "You always resist" is because they have no choice. This verse is used by both campls. It doesn't state free choice: it implies it. they hold that it doesn't state it, and it implies no free choice. I stand by my statement on this one. This is NOT used by Calvinists. Calvisnists say that the Holy Spirit can't be resisted. Calvinists have a hard time with this scripture.

Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out My hands all the day to a rebellious people who walk in the way not good, after their own thoughts
Ditto Calvinists are ridiculous to believe that God would spread out His hands all day to anyone knowing He made them to not be able to obey!

Isaiah 65:11 But you are those who forsake Jehovah, who forget My holy mountain, who prepare a table for Fortune, and who furnish the drink offering to Fate
ditto No way "ditto." God is mad they forget His holy mountain----yet He made them to forget?! Calvinism in nonsensical insanity.

Isa 65:12 Therefore I will number you to the sword; and you will all bow down to the slaughter; because I called and you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not hear and did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I did not delight.
Here's one. Thanks. I guess that I missed it. Sorry.

Rom. 1:19 Because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Does not state free choice. Free choice is implied if you believe in free choice. No free choice is implied if you believe in no free choice. No, your reasoning doesn't apply. The scripture SAYS God has made it plain to them. Calvinists say God has made it that they can't know.

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
Ditto This scripture says they are WITHOUT EXCUSE. Calvinsists say they have an excuse....they say they were made not being ABLE.

Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
ditto No way "ditto."

Rom. 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Ditto You are wrong.

Rom. 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
Ditto [sup]8[/sup] But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. No "ditto." You don't have a choice what you follow? Someone is physically not letting you? No.

Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,
Ditto Stop with the "ditto." At least try to prove what you say by explaining.

Rom. 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be
This one is used strongly by the no free choice camp, as it states that it CAN'T be subject to God or His law, thus they use it for their position. This is why I said that some of the scriptures that you used were a poor choice in debating the free choice. If you believe in free choice, this one can be used, but it is used equally strongly by the opposition, if not more so. Wow. You so don't understand this passage. Read it with the NIV...
[sup]5[/sup] Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [sup]6[/sup] The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [sup]8[/sup] Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.


Heb. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Again, this is used by the opposition, as hardening can be done by God, such as with Pharaoh, and hardening is not stated as choice per se, but is a result of continuing in a certain state, as per some of the Romans verses you tried to appropriate into this debate. Again, see the statements for the previous verse. The hardening scriptures PROVE no Calvinism. Why would God need to harden people that He made not able to receive Him?!!! I'm not afraid to use any scriptures to disprove Calvinism. Calvinism is so false...I will use the very scripture they are confused about.

2 Cor. 4:3 But also if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost,
This is used strongly by the no free choice camp. This is a second verse that I wondered why you used it, when it would seem to clearly state against your position by the opposition.

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.
This is used by the opposition. I was surprised that you used it, as it would speak against your position, by itself. You give these verses by theemselves. As such, they must stand by themselves. Listing verses together can be construed to mean that they are to be tied together, but until that is done, actually shown how they tie together, many will not see that in the verses given, as they do not believe your position on them. You are wrong.

Phil. 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, those who mind earthly things.
Doesn't speak anything about free choice. It merely states that they mind earthly things. Why? They are earthly minded. There mind hasn't been renewed in Christ, obviously. Thus, they are "a slave to sin", as Romans states. This, too, was a very poor choice of scripture on your part. You too were a slave to sin, right? Your reasoning is nonsensical.

and now I have to go. I'll get back to this, this evening.

This is absolutely ridiculous for a non Calvinist to debate a non Calvinist!!!!! Unless a Calvinist is reading and concidering what I say. You need to stop speaking for Calvinists when you are not one. I, a non Calvinist, am NOT going to keep debating a non Calvinist!!!!!!!!! Think about it! LOL Sorry, Surf Rider, but I'm about trying to study deep with someone to try to get them see the light.

I would like to take this time to say something about the ESV of the Bible that pops up when we post scriptures on this site. The ESV is translated by a bunch of Reformers (Calvinists). I can't help but discern the spirit of Calvinism when I read from that version. Too bad that is the version used on this site.
 

Jimmy Engle

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So the letters to the Churches in Revelation should not be used for individual purpose, in other words there is nothing to glean from them for individual purposes. Should I use the same logic for the letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, etc.
Oh and how does that logic work with the Letter to the Ephesians and the one to Ephesus?

Cheers
I was just pointing out that the context of that verse was talking about a church not an individual. So many evangelists today use that verse and say if you have to pray to receive Jesus in their hearts. So they get the people to pray a prayer and then they ask them if they were sincere. If they say that they were sincere, then the evangelists will pronounce them to be saved. If the person doubts if he was really saved after praying the prayer the evangelists will show them that verse and tell them that Jesus is knocking on the door and if we invite Him in He will come into us and therefore we will be saved...............I don't like that. I challenge any evangelist to please show me where in the NT the gospel was preached in that manner. Jesus doesn't say to the nations of Israel...who would like to accept Me into their heart? I see that hand. No! He said repent and believe the gospel. Turn from your sins and trust in Christ to save you apart from works of the law.
 

perrero

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I was just pointing out that the context of that verse was talking about a church not an individual. So many evangelists today use that verse and say if you have to pray to receive Jesus in their hearts. So they get the people to pray a prayer and then they ask them if they were sincere. If they say that they were sincere, then the evangelists will pronounce them to be saved. If the person doubts if he was really saved after praying the prayer the evangelists will show them that verse and tell them that Jesus is knocking on the door and if we invite Him in He will come into us and therefore we will be saved...............I don't like that. I challenge any evangelist to please show me where in the NT the gospel was preached in that manner. Jesus doesn't say to the nations of Israel...who would like to accept Me into their heart? I see that hand. No! He said repent and believe the gospel. Turn from your sins and trust in Christ to save you apart from works of the law.

I know exactly what you're pointing out. You are also putting preference on context and not on the message itself because in this case it is convenient for your stance. Nevertheless ALL scripture has been given for the profit of us all. Just because a message is given to church, a nation, a gathering (Sermon on the Mount), a household, the world doesn't mean that it cannot have its personal application in our lives.

What evangelists do with this verse is beyond my control and because the verse is misused I don't let it shape my theology. Many "Men of God" have misused John (3:16), should I then discount that verse in my evangelistic thrust. No because when I used the verse I'll lead them to the Cross and not to a batch of kool-aid.

Rev. (3:20) this verse whether in context of a church or for individual use requires an act of Free Will in order to exercise. That is the context of this discussion.
And spare me the hogwash that this would be an act of "good will" because it takes Free Will to perform good will or bad will. Good will or bad will is the result of your Free Will choice.

Enough said I will not discuss Rev. (3:20) anymore.

What puzzles me the most is that you believe in repentance and yet not free will. There must be another way of repenting, that does not require Free Will, that I am unaware of.
Repentance is as I have posted earlier:

RE REcognizing you are a sinner
PEN Approaching God with a PENitent
TAN There must a TANgible change of heart and attitudes
CE CEasing all sin and unrighteousness

Which one of those four does not require some kind of Free Will in order to repent?

Ciao 4 now

Cheers
 

Jimmy Engle

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I know exactly what you're pointing out. You are also putting preference on context and not on the message itself because in this case it is convenient for your stance. Nevertheless ALL scripture has been given for the profit of us all. Just because a message is given to church, a nation, a gathering (Sermon on the Mount), a household, the world doesn't mean that it cannot have its personal application in our lives.

What evangelists do with this verse is beyond my control and because the verse is misused I don't let it shape my theology. Many "Men of God" have misused John (3:16), should I then discount that verse in my evangelistic thrust. No because when I used the verse I'll lead them to the Cross and not to a batch of kool-aid.

Rev. (3:20) this verse whether in context of a church or for individual use requires an act of Free Will in order to exercise. That is the context of this discussion.
And spare me the hogwash that this would be an act of "good will" because it takes Free Will to perform good will or bad will. Good will or bad will is the result of your Free Will choice.

Enough said I will not discuss Rev. (3:20) anymore.

What puzzles me the most is that you believe in repentance and yet not free will. There must be another way of repenting, that does not require Free Will, that I am unaware of.
Repentance is as I have posted earlier:

RE REcognizing you are a sinner
PEN Approaching God with a PENitent
TAN There must a TANgible change of heart and attitudes
CE CEasing all sin and unrighteousness

Which one of those four does not require some kind of Free Will in order to repent?

Ciao 4 now

Cheers
Okay we will forget about Revelation 3:20 and we won't discuss Hebrews 4. Now getting back to the subject at hand in regard to free will...there is an important question that must be answered. Can man chose God through his own strenght or will or does man need God to first enable that person to chose Him? Really that is the issue right? Some say that man can chose and others say God must first chose then man can chose. That is the issue at hand and that is what we will focus on.

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
as many as received Him...to those who believe in His name.
The second phrase describes the first. To receive Him who is the Word of God means to acknowledge His claims, place one's faith in Him, and thereby yield allegiance to Him. gave. The term emphasizes the grace of God involved in the gift of salvation. the right. Those who receive Jesus, the Word, receive full authority to claim the exalted title of "children of God." of God The divine side of salvation...ultimately it is not a man's will that produces salvation but God's will. (John 3:6-8; Titus 3:5; 1 John 2:29)

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
v39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
v44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
v65 - For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

John 17:2 - even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
v6 - I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
v12 - While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
v9 - I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours.
v 24 - Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for you loved Me before the foundations of the world.
v25 - O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

John 15:16 - You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give you.
v19 - If you were of the world, the world would love it's own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
He says you do not believe BECAUSE you are not of My sheep. Many people today would flip what He said around and say that you are not of His sheep because you do not believe. There is a major difference between the two.

John 8:47 - He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.

John 18:9 - to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."

Romans 8:29-30 - For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the first born among many brethren; and these whom he predestined, he also called; and these whom he called, He also justified; and these whom he justified, He also glorified.
foreknew The word foreknew is n active verb, not a noun. So, it doesn't mean that God knew who was going to believe, it simply means that god made a predetermined choice to set His love on us and establish an intimate relationship. Every verb found in this verse; foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified, God is the one doing these with the same audience involved for each one. The "us" in verses 31-32 is speaking of the same people in verse 29, the elect.

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to the adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will

Acts 13:48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 9:11 - for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works ut because of Him who calls.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 - Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

2 Thessalonians 2:14 - It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10 - For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

1 Peter 1:2 - according to the foreknowledge of God the father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Titus 1:1 - Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of these chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.

Romans 9:15 - For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
v 16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
v17 - For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
v18 - So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens when He desires.

Mark 13:20 - Unless the Lord has shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Romans 11:7 - What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Romans 11:28-29 - From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Colossians 3:12 - So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

1 Timothy 5:21 - I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

1 Peter 1:1 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1 Peter 2:9 - Bu you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of the darkness into His marvelous light;

2 Peter 1:10 - Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

Matthew 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

Psalm 139:16 - Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved by faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.
 

perrero

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Okay we will forget about Revelation 3:20 and we won't discuss Hebrews 4. Now getting back to the subject at hand in regard to free will...there is an important question that must be answered. Can man chose God through his own strenght or will or does man need God to first enable that person to chose Him? Really that is the issue right? Some say that man can chose and others say God must first chose then man can chose. That is the issue at hand and that is what we will focus on.

Nice dissertation. If I was in your camp I'd make sure to Copy all those verses so that I could Paste them later on.

The subject at hand is that you believe God chooses us first so that we will inevitably choose Him. What makes God choose me over my neighbour? Is it because I'm caucasian or my blue eyes? (Answer this for me.)

A God, who creates billions of people and then picks a selected few (the road is narrow) to choose Him while the others are left to fester and finally be sent into eternal torment, because they did not choose Him seeing God never chose them in the first place, is a cruel God. You need not waste your time to convince me otherwise. I don't want your God.

God gives us life, nature and the universe to reveal Himself, the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin and righteousness, even faith to believe in Him. He will send people to witness, prophets to warn, circumstances to awake, in other words He will do absolutely everything to draw us to Him, however the choice to follow Him remains mine and I will be fully responsible for it.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Cheers
 
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SaberTruth

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Can man chose God through his own strenght or will or does man need God to first enable that person to chose Him?

Strength? What has strength got to do with anything? Faith is not a work, that we need strength to do it (Rom. 3:27-28, 4:5, 9:32, Gal. 2:16, Gal. 3, 1 Tim. 1:4 etc.). Not even Calvin believed Eph. 2:8-9 said God granted individual faith, but that He granted salvation by faith-- that is, that salvation would be by faith. This is what the Greek grammar indicates. As for the will, you keep ignoring what I've been saying about the requirement of free will for love to be real.

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
as many as received Him...to those who believe in His name.
The second phrase describes the first. To receive Him who is the Word of God means to acknowledge His claims, place one's faith in Him, and thereby yield allegiance to Him. gave. The term emphasizes the grace of God involved in the gift of salvation. the right. Those who receive Jesus, the Word, receive full authority to claim the exalted title of "children of God." of God The divine side of salvation...ultimately it is not a man's will that produces salvation but God's will. (John 3:6-8; Titus 3:5; 1 John 2:29)


No, the second phrase is the result of the first: those who receive Him then get the right to be children of God. The third says how we received Him: by belief in His name. The final phrase says that these children are not natural-born or physical but by God and spiritual. Note that "but of God" does NOT refer to God's will, but to the source of the spiritual birth. Remember, never attempt to exegete in detail without some familiarity with the original language. It makes a TON of difference.
 

Surf Rider

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Anastacia, I also thought that it was goofy that we'd be debating "against" each other. I had thought of PMing you, but it was initially posted publicly.

I still can't agree with your use fo most of those verses. I still think that if you believe a position, they speak of it, and if you don't, then they don't speak of it. I'm looking at it more from a "neutral" or even from the opposition's standpoint, and I don't think that you are.

If you want to continue trying to enlighten me on this aspect, you're welcome to, but perhaps it'd be better to PM me.
 

Anastacia

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Anastacia, I also thought that it was goofy that we'd be debating "against" each other. I had thought of PMing you, but it was initially posted publicly.

I still can't agree with your use fo most of those verses. I still think that if you believe a position, they speak of it, and if you don't, then they don't speak of it. I'm looking at it more from a "neutral" or even from the opposition's standpoint, and I don't think that you are.

If you want to continue trying to enlighten me on this aspect, you're welcome to, but perhaps it'd be better to PM me.


Well, sorry you still don't agree with me. I really tried. But just because you don't agree with me....that doesn't make me wrong, no, not in the slightest. But wait a minute, how can you not agree with me if you are not Calvinist? See, that is where it just gets a little strange. Think about that for a while.
And you falsely accuse me of not looking at it more from a "neutral" or even from the oppositions's standpoint.....but you can hardly see it from a non Calvinsit view at all! What's with that?! That doesn't make sense since you are non Calvinist.
If you were a Calvinist, at least I could be trying to help you see that we have a choice.....but all you keep saying to the scriptures is no. What in the world is that?
I can hardly believe that you say you don't think I am seeing it from the opposition's standpoint. Why attack me like that? I understand Calvinism, and it's strange that I should have to even say that to you, especially seeing how you aren't Calvinist yourself. Your defense for Calvinism is flawed---when your main defense against is by personally attacking me by saying I don't understand Calvinism. That's not an argument---that's a personal attack with no bases in truth.
I don't want to come off as being harsh to you personally, but this is an extremely important subject, like all false doctrines. Calvinism is a very twisted doctrine that needs to be exposed. Why are you working so hard against me on it?
 

Anastacia

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Oct 23, 2010
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Hi James, I'd like to answer some of the questions you put out there. I'll reply in green.

Okay we will forget about Revelation 3:20 and we won't discuss Hebrews 4. Now getting back to the subject at hand in regard to free will...there is an important question that must be answered. Can man chose God through his own strenght or will or does man need God to first enable that person to chose Him? Really that is the issue right? Some say that man can chose and others say God must first chose then man can chose. That is the issue at hand and that is what we will focus on.

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
as many as received Him...to those who believe in His name.
The second phrase describes the first. To receive Him who is the Word of God means to acknowledge His claims, place one's faith in Him, and thereby yield allegiance to Him. gave. The term emphasizes the grace of God involved in the gift of salvation. the right. Those who receive Jesus, the Word, receive full authority to claim the exalted title of "children of God." of God The divine side of salvation...ultimately it is not a man's will that produces salvation but God's will. (John 3:6-8; Titus 3:5; 1 John 2:29)

This is talking about the plan of salvation. It is about how this was God's plan and had nothing to do with man wanting it or not.


John 6:37 - All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
v39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
v44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
v65 - For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

Jesus says "All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me..." This is about how there are people searching for God. Do you understand? People search for God, but God gives us to Jesus, in order to get to God, we go through Jesus. So, all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus. Jesus says in another scripture if we loved the Father we would love the Son. Also, if we knew God we would know that he was from God.



John 17:2 - even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
v6 - I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
v12 - While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
v9 - I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours.
v 24 - Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for you loved Me before the foundations of the world.
v25 - O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

These scriptures are like the ones I just explained. "...to the men whom You gave Me..." These men were believers in God, before they met Jesus. These men were believers in God...these men were God's because they had already believed in God and loved God. Now these men who belonged to God, they are given to Jesus.



John 15:16 - You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give you.
v19 - If you were of the world, the world would love it's own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

I don't understand your question with John 15:16.



John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Like I have been trying to show....they were believers of God before they knew Jesus.



John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
He says you do not believe BECAUSE you are not of My sheep. Many people today would flip what He said around and say that you are not of His sheep because you do not believe. There is a major difference between the two.

Some people did not believe in God. If they did not believe in God...they were also referred to as dogs. If they were unbelievers...they were also referred to as goats...




Romans 8:29-30 - For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the first born among many brethren; and these whom he predestined, he also called; and these whom he called, He also justified; and these whom he justified, He also glorified.
foreknew The word foreknew is n active verb, not a noun. So, it doesn't mean that God knew who was going to believe, it simply means that god made a predetermined choice to set His love on us and establish an intimate relationship. Every verb found in this verse; foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified, God is the one doing these with the same audience involved for each one. The "us" in verses 31-32 is speaking of the same people in verse 29, the elect.

The people God "foreknew" are the Jews. Even though many Gentiles were getting saved....and Jews were hardened....Paul is explaining that the Jews are predestine too...predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. The Bible tells us plainly that the Jews are who God foreknew.



Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to the adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will

This scripture is more about salvation being predestined for us....not about people being predestined.



Acts 13:48 - When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
This scripture tells us that all who were there were saved.

Romans 9:11 - for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works ut because of Him who calls.
[sup]10[/sup] Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. [sup]11[/sup] Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: [sup]12[/sup] not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” [sup]13[/sup] Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[sup][/sup]

See, humans give special treatment to the first born son. So, it would be believed, by human standards, that God should of chosen Esau. But God didn't. God can have mercy on whom he wants. God chose the second born. This passage is to help explain to the Jews how Gentiles could be receiving salvation. God hardened the Jews because they didn't believe, this hardening let the Gentiles come to salvation....not that the Gentiles did any works like the Jews did, but because God has mercy on whom he choses.




1 Thessalonians 1:4 - Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

2 Thessalonians 2:14 - It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10 - For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

1 Peter 1:2 - according to the foreknowledge of God the father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

God planned salvation through Jesus Christ before the creation of the world. It wasn't something planned down the road because of man asking, etc.
Those who are saved are chosen because of belief in Jesus Christ, and confessing... Those who receive the Holy Spirit are the people found worthy by God. We receive the Holy Spirit because we obey. I can give you scripture on our being found worthy by God. We have to believe and obey to be saved.

Titus 1:1 - Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of these chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.

Romans 9:15 - For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
v 16 - So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
v17 - For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."
v18 - So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens when He desires.

Mark 13:20 - Unless the Lord has shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

God wants us to believe in His Son. We have to believe in His Son to be chosen. God does know who would and who would not believe.


Romans 11:7 - What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

God knows our hearts. People who did not believe were hardened.



Romans 11:28-29 - From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The Bible tells us that the Jews can be saved if they do not persist in unbelief.




Colossians 3:12 - So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

1 Timothy 5:21 - I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

1 Peter 1:1 - Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1 Peter 2:9 - Bu you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of the darkness into His marvelous light;

2 Peter 1:10 - Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.

Matthew 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

Psalm 139:16 - Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace you have been saved by faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them.

Once someone has been taught and understands Calvinism....it is hard to see the truth. Calvinsim is a strange doctrine that can be hard for some people to get out off.
 

Jimmy Engle

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Jun 17, 2009
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Nice dissertation. If I was in your camp I'd make sure to Copy all those verses so that I could Paste them later on.

The subject at hand is that you believe God chooses us first so that we will inevitably choose Him. What makes God choose me over my neighbour? Is it because I'm caucasian or my blue eyes? (Answer this for me.)

A God, who creates billions of people and then picks a selected few (the road is narrow) to choose Him while the others are left to fester and finally be sent into eternal torment, because they did not choose Him seeing God never chose them in the first place, is a cruel God. You need not waste your time to convince me otherwise. I don't want your God.

God gives us life, nature and the universe to reveal Himself, the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin and righteousness, even faith to believe in Him. He will send people to witness, prophets to warn, circumstances to awake, in other words He will do absolutely everything to draw us to Him, however the choice to follow Him remains mine and I will be fully responsible for it.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Cheers
Actually I didn't copy and paste those verses I actually took an hour or so typing them all down....just so you don't think I am just taking the work of another which I could have easily have done.

For your question why does God chose some over others...there is an answer and it's hard to deal with at first but when you spend time studying this you see that really everything, not just salvation, but everything is in God's control...

Romans 9:11-33
9:11 for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this, will it?"

9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

9:23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

9:24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

9:25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, `MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, `BELOVED.'"

9:26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, `YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

9:28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

9:29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law.

9:32 Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

One thing that cannot be denied is that God chose Israel...It was God who enables the nation of Israel to be His people called to make His name great among the nations. God did this to demonstrate to the whole world His glory and power through them.
The Gentiles were not grafted in until later...how come? Why couldn't they believe and have faith in God? Why couldn't they choose God and be saved? Because God chose Israel...not everyone. But now He has chose everyone so there is not no distinction between the two. So everyone can be saved, not because they have the ability to chose God but because God chose to offer them the free gift of salvation...first to Israel then to the Gentiles...this is why you don't find Gentiles being saved prior to God choosing them.
 

Jimmy Engle

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Anastacia

In response to the verses I posted found in John, I understand what you are saying and I can see your logic behind that. But the problem I see is that you are basing your belief off the fact that people seek after God, but we are told repeatedly throughout scripture that no one seeks after God.

Ephesians 1:4-5 is showing us that God chose us long before we came to know Him.

Acts 13:48 is putting things in perspective...the were appointed unto salvation. That springs forth a question..by whom? All the other verses I posted should be more than enough to demonstrate that it was God who did the appointing and this verse in Acts tells us that it was the result of the appointing that resulted in salvation.

Romans 9:11 does indeed teach about how God can chose the Gentiles even though the Jews were God's chosen people first, but if you think that is all that passage is teaching then you are not getting the entire picture.

Really the other verses say the same things just in different ways.

I understand what you mean about Calvinism. It is not easy to understand even when studied for some time. However, the issue is not Calvinism. The issue is the doctrine of regeneration. I am convinced that salvation is a total and completer work of God that comes from Him and belongs to Him. We cannot do anything to receive it. It is a gift by His grace. Even faith is given to us along with repentance. People have a hard time understanding that without the work of the Holy Spirit a person cannot come to God because they cannot produce the repentance and faith required to be saved. Someone who is dead in trespasses and sin cannot repent of them. Why? Because repentance is formed in a man when the Holy Spirit is present. Conviction over sin doesn't occur unless God is doing the convicting through the Holy Spirit.

Can a person be convicted over sin apart from the Holy Spirit? Yes. That is called worldly grief. Godly grief is only produced when the conviction of sin is placed upon a sinners heart through the work of the Spirit. That conviction comes only through the Holy Spirit. That is why when the Word is being preached...only some our saved. It's not that only some understood it. There are plenty of people who understand the bible and yet are not saved because God hasn't given them the repentance necessary to be saved. If you don't believe me then try debating with a Muslim. Not only do they know the Koran very well but they have a pretty impressive knowledge of the bible...far more than most professing Christians which is embarrassing to admit but it's true.
 

Anastacia

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Anastacia

In response to the verses I posted found in John, I understand what you are saying and I can see your logic behind that. But the problem I see is that you are basing your belief off the fact that people seek after God, but we are told repeatedly throughout scripture that no one seeks after God.

Ephesians 1:4-5 is showing us that God chose us long before we came to know Him.

Acts 13:48 is putting things in perspective...the were appointed unto salvation. That springs forth a question..by whom? All the other verses I posted should be more than enough to demonstrate that it was God who did the appointing and this verse in Acts tells us that it was the result of the appointing that resulted in salvation.

Romans 9:11 does indeed teach about how God can chose the Gentiles even though the Jews were God's chosen people first, but if you think that is all that passage is teaching then you are not getting the entire picture.

Really the other verses say the same things just in different ways.

I understand what you mean about Calvinism. It is not easy to understand even when studied for some time. However, the issue is not Calvinism. The issue is the doctrine of regeneration. I am convinced that salvation is a total and completer work of God that comes from Him and belongs to Him. We cannot do anything to receive it. It is a gift by His grace. Even faith is given to us along with repentance. People have a hard time understanding that without the work of the Holy Spirit a person cannot come to God because they cannot produce the repentance and faith required to be saved. Someone who is dead in trespasses and sin cannot repent of them. Why? Because repentance is formed in a man when the Holy Spirit is present. Conviction over sin doesn't occur unless God is doing the convicting through the Holy Spirit.

Can a person be convicted over sin apart from the Holy Spirit? Yes. That is called worldly grief. Godly grief is only produced when the conviction of sin is placed upon a sinners heart through the work of the Spirit. That conviction comes only through the Holy Spirit. That is why when the Word is being preached...only some our saved. It's not that only some understood it. There are plenty of people who understand the bible and yet are not saved because God hasn't given them the repentance necessary to be saved. If you don't believe me then try debating with a Muslim. Not only do they know the Koran very well but they have a pretty impressive knowledge of the bible...far more than most professing Christians which is embarrassing to admit but it's true.

It's not my logic behind it, as you say, rather....it is the truth.
You say "But the problem I see is that you are basing your belief off the fact that people seek God, but we are told repeatedly throughout scripture that no one seeks God." No one seeks after God...until we are told about God! What you say doesn't make sense. You are still stuck in some form of Calvinism....maybe not all 5 points, but some form of it. Or maybe some other teaching. Regardless, you are not thinking about this correctly. Read this passage, maybe you can understand better....

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"Romans 10:14-15

You say this about some people..."There are plenty of people who understand the bible and yet are not saved because God hasn't given them the repentance necessary to be saved." That is NOT even in the Bible what you say. We HAVE to believe in Jesus. We have to go through Jesus. The Bible tells us why people don't believe and are not saved. I gave a lot of scripture that tells us why people are not saved. Again, the reason you give why people are not saved....that reason is NOT in the Bible. You need to believe what the Bible says and work through all the confusion taught to you by people of false doctrines.
 

perrero

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For your question why does God chose some over others...there is an answer and it's hard to deal with at first but when you spend time studying this you see that really everything, not just salvation, but everything is in God's control...
So it boils down to God's Sovereignty is the reason why some make it or break it.
In the "Great Sand Box" that God created and all the toys (humans) that He created, He only chooses a few that He will dust off and take back with Him while the rest are left out in the cold or left out in the heat of the sun to burn. You're telling me that His arbitrary choice is based solely on His Sovereignty. Do you sleep well at night knowing that at the last minute He may arbitrarily choose another fair haired toy over you.


James said:
One thing that cannot be denied is that God chose Israel...It was God who enables the nation of Israel to be His people called to make His name great among the nations. God did this to demonstrate to the whole world His glory and power through them.

And every Israelite in going to heaven no matter what? What about those who died in the "Great Rebellion"?


James said:
The Gentiles were not grafted in until later...how come? Why couldn't they believe and have faith in God? Why couldn't they choose God and be saved? Because God chose Israel...not everyone. But now He has chose everyone so there is not no distinction between the two. So everyone can be saved, not because they have the ability to chose God but because God chose to offer them the free gift of salvation...first to Israel then to the Gentiles...this is why you don't find Gentiles being saved prior to God choosing them.
And so the Ninevites repentance was in vain, Rahab the Harlot will not be in heaven even though she made it in the Hall of Fame?

Let's face it this theology is riddled with holes and is non sensical. It also makes God a sadistical despot whom I care less to serve.
 

Jimmy Engle

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It's not my logic behind it, as you say, rather....it is the truth.
You say "But the problem I see is that you are basing your belief off the fact that people seek God, but we are told repeatedly throughout scripture that no one seeks God." No one seeks after God...until we are told about God! What you say doesn't make sense. You are still stuck in some form of Calvinism....maybe not all 5 points, but some form of it. Or maybe some other teaching. Regardless, you are not thinking about this correctly. Read this passage, maybe you can understand better....

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"Romans 10:14-15

You say this about some people..."There are plenty of people who understand the bible and yet are not saved because God hasn't given them the repentance necessary to be saved." That is NOT even in the Bible what you say. We HAVE to believe in Jesus. We have to go through Jesus. The Bible tells us why people don't believe and are not saved. I gave a lot of scripture that tells us why people are not saved. Again, the reason you give why people are not saved....that reason is NOT in the Bible. You need to believe what the Bible says and work through all the confusion taught to you by people of false doctrines.

It isn't what I am saying, it's what the bible is saying...

Psalm 14:1-3 - The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are nay who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 10:4 - The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."

Not only do men not seek after God in their corrupt nature, but they don't even have the ability to change that...

Ecclesiastes 9:3 - this is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
The vivid analogy assumes that sinners cannot change their sinful natures. Only God can change the heart (Jeremiah 31:18, 31-34).

When the bible speak of the heart it is referring to a person nature. The nature of a person is shown through the fruit that they bear.

Ezekiel 36:26 - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit withing you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh an give you a heart of flesh.
Heart of stone represents a sinner who doesn't respond to God. He doesn't understand the word or the truth of God. The heart of flesh is a heart that can respond to divine stimuli. This is the heart that results in a changed nature that loves God and seeks Him and loves His word and fellowship with His people and so on.

Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

1 John 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Men are so sinful that not only do that not seek God but they have wicked hearts and minds and they do evil continually. They have hearts of stone and are the walking dead and they need the Holy Spirit to give them hearts of flesh. They need the Spirit to give life.

John 6:63 - It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 16:8-9 - And He, when he comes, will convict the world concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me...

So if we are truly dead in trespasses and sins and it takes the Holy Spirit to breath life into us and regenerate us by giving us a new heart that changes our nature from evil to good....do we chose to receive this or does God?

John 3:4-8

So it boils down to God's Sovereignty is the reason why some make it or break it.
In the "Great Sand Box" that God created and all the toys (humans) that He created, He only chooses a few that He will dust off and take back with Him while the rest are left out in the cold or left out in the heat of the sun to burn. You're telling me that His arbitrary choice is based solely on His Sovereignty. Do you sleep well at night knowing that at the last minute He may arbitrarily choose another fair haired toy over you.




And every Israelite in going to heaven no matter what? What about those who died in the "Great Rebellion"?



And so the Ninevites repentance was in vain, Rahab the Harlot will not be in heaven even though she made it in the Hall of Fame?

Let's face it this theology is riddled with holes and is non sensical. It also makes God a sadistical despot whom I care less to serve.
To quote what Paul said to people such as yourselves who question the sovereignty of God...Who are you O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
 

SaberTruth

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It isn't what I am saying, it's what the bible is saying...
Everybody thinks the Bible says what they mean.
wink.gif


Interpretation is the issue, since both sides can see "what the Bible says". And Calvinism seems to do an awful lot of quoting the OT for a NT issue (the church). Why is that? At least one part of the answer lies in their choice of verses to extract from context, which is largely in the genre of poetry. And Hebrew poetry is notorious for its hyperbole. But if you want doctrine, especially for NT believers, you need to reference the NT, and especially the letters, since it is there that you are most likely to find Christian doctrine.

When the bible speak of the heart it is referring to a person nature. The nature of a person is shown through the fruit that they bear.
What caused Adam to sin? Nature? Then why is "nature" made the cause of all other sin? This is the fallacy of "special pleading". Since "nature" is not the only possible cause of sin, then we can't arbitrarily assign our sin to our "nature".

Heart of stone represents a sinner who doesn't respond to God. He doesn't understand the word or the truth of God. The heart of flesh is a heart that can respond to divine stimuli. This is the heart that results in a changed nature that loves God and seeks Him and loves His word and fellowship with His people and so on.
Where does scripture say "a heart of stone represents a sinner who doesn't respond to God"? Who says a heart of stone cannot respond to God? And we're still in the OT. But even Ezekiel, in ch. 18, says children do not inherit the sin of their parents. Calvinists seem to avoid that passage.

Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Guess what the Greek says? Check here, esp. the comments. But speaking of "nature", what do you do with Rom. 2:14? "(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law..."?

Men are so sinful that not only do that not seek God but they have wicked hearts and minds and they do evil continually. They have hearts of stone and are the walking dead and they need the Holy Spirit to give them hearts of flesh. They need the Spirit to give life
.
What do you do with those verses about seeking God? And what about our being "dead to sin" when we're saved, does that mean we are as incapable of sinning as a dead man is?



 

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Assuming that God is just........

If there were no free will;
- then there would be no need for judgment,
- then there would be no need for constant and consistant warnings about impending judgment,
- there would be no need for Jesus' substitutionary death upon the cross,
- there would be no need for a call for personal repentance and moral behaviour
- the behaviour of man would not be perverted and rebellious.

If there is free will;
- then God would be required to warn man of the consequences of his behaviour,
- then God would be forced to intervene in nature so as to stop and reverse the consequences of sin,
- then God would have to punish man for his rebellion and sin,
- then God would be required to provide some sort of remedy - PERSONALLY since man can not or will not to do it himself,
- then God would be required to honor the remedy He provided
.


Actually, your logic rests on the idea that Free Will is dependent on evil, which implies that our Free Will is depended on the Fall. What you are failing to note is that humans had free will before the Fall - Adam chose different names for the animals, for example. Humans chose between good choices before the Fall, so even with Free Will we did not face judgment. It is not Free Will that brings judgment - it is the entrance of sin in the world.

Claiming that we didn't have Free Will before the Fall and therefore needed to sin in order to get Free Will or grow up, makes God's plan dependent on Evil and is actually and LDS teaching. Christianity teaches us that God's plan is never dependent on evil.

My argument rests on the point that any discussion of the human will ought to pivot upon God's character, not man's.

Most discussions condemn God when man supposedly lacks an independent will or portray God as impotent when man is autonomous.

The Bible clearly states that man has chosen to defy and rebel against the Most High.
God in turn has embarked upon a path of reconciliation by means of His substitionary death and advancement of the gospel.

God is the main character on the stage of life, neither a tyrant nor a tragic victim of the play.
Man is at best a supporting actor.
 

Anastacia

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It isn't what I am saying, it's what the bible is saying...

Psalm 14:1-3 - The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are nay who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 10:4 - The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, "There is no God."

Not only do men not seek after God in their corrupt nature, but they don't even have the ability to change that...

Ecclesiastes 9:3 - this is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
The vivid analogy assumes that sinners cannot change their sinful natures. Only God can change the heart (Jeremiah 31:18, 31-34).

When the bible speak of the heart it is referring to a person nature. The nature of a person is shown through the fruit that they bear.

Ezekiel 36:26 - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit withing you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh an give you a heart of flesh.
Heart of stone represents a sinner who doesn't respond to God. He doesn't understand the word or the truth of God. The heart of flesh is a heart that can respond to divine stimuli. This is the heart that results in a changed nature that loves God and seeks Him and loves His word and fellowship with His people and so on.

I'm not going to get into the Old Testament right now...

Ephesians 2:1-3 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

You see in Ephesians, Paul is explaining how "we" all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, etc......as THEY DO. What makes the differnence now? The difference now is that they heard the message, obeyed, and received the Holy Spirit. If people hear the message and reject it, it's because they love evil and hate the light; it's because they are rebellious and stubborn in their heart. The Bible tells us why people aren't saved! And none of the reasons are supportive of Calvinism. Calvinists admit they don't know why some are made for hell and some are saved. BUT THE BIBLE TELLS US WHY! The Bible tells us.

1 John 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Men are so sinful that not only do that not seek God but they have wicked hearts and minds and they do evil continually. They have hearts of stone and are the walking dead and they need the Holy Spirit to give them hearts of flesh. They need the Spirit to give life.

But there ARE people, sinners, who hear the Word of God, who do what Jesus commands.

John 6:63 - It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 16:8-9 - And He, when he comes, will convict the world concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me...

So if we are truly dead in trespasses and sins and it takes the Holy Spirit to breath life into us and regenerate us by giving us a new heart that changes our nature from evil to good....do we chose to receive this or does God?
The Bible says we don't get the Holy Spirit till we obey!!!


John 3:4-8


To quote what Paul said to people such as yourselves who question the sovereignty of God...Who are you O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

That is Paul's answer to why God hardened the Jews to let the Gentiles in. God hardened them. Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Did you read that? Now read Romans 4:21-22 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.


Now read more, Romans 4:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

Now read this: Romans 4:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircimcised through that same faith.

So James, if it were the way you are thinking, that you were just chosen for no reason known whatsoever......then you bet you could boast!! And, did you notice that the scriptures here are talking about Jews and Gentiles? The scriptures explaining how Gentiles got to have salvation, those are the scriptures Calvinists seem to get confused about the most.
 

perrero

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To quote what Paul said to people such as yourselves who question the sovereignty of God...Who are you O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

It may seem at the moment that I am questioning God's Sovereignty and I will tell you why in my next post, IF and ONLY IF you answer this question for me?

If your answer is logical and sensible I will espouse Calvinism.

Why do you think God created people, some to go to heaven others to go to hell, assuming, as you say, we have no say in the matter?

Cheers