Trials and Testings

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stunnedbygrace

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The trial of trust I went through for temporal provision is now being mirrored by another trial for spiritual provision. It seems to me as if the first trial has given me some...strength for the second trial.

It also seems as if Israel in the desert pictures this - first they cried for food (temporal provision) and then they cried for water (spiritual provision, since we are told they all drank from the same spiritual rock, which was Jesus).

When I never had quite enough temporally, I seemed to have an abundance spiritually, but my focus was on the part I lacked and on why it pleased Him to put me in such poverty. (I know why now, and when I just determined to trust Him that He was doing good for me no matter what it looked like, He increased my temporal provision.)
So He was looking for trust instead of grumbling.

But, as soon as He did that, He seemed to abandon me and give me poverty spiritually. Abandonment, a thirsty desert without any water. But as I said, the first trial gave me some strength to hold firmer in the second trial, where I currently am, because amid the sighing and the thirst, the adamant shout that bursts forth at times is: He has NOT abandoned me, and despite what it looks and feels like, I know He is doing what's good for me.

It's not one or the other. If it were, I would ask Him for temporal poverty again in exchange for spiritual wealth. Having lived through both now, I would much prefer to turn back to temporal poverty rather than this harder poverty. But it doesnt work that way. I cant return to that but can only look forward. One of the hardest parts of it has been the removal of some fellowship i enjoyed and was helped by. I dont understand why i had to lose that, but I'm quite positive it's only temporary. Of course, Gods temporary feels like forever to me.
 

APAK

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I'm sorry you have been going/gone through some rough patches lately. I can only imagine folks being burdened by the loss of work and income and the loss of their quarters. All three have not occurred to me simultaneously. I know what it is to be out of work...several times in my life. I also know what it is like to have only two coins to rub together and also be out of work at the same time.

Our strength and where we never are in need, as you have already articulated, is in the spirit within; and I know our Lord is besides you and others, every step.

I wish all the best for you, to prosper in spirit with renewed joy and gladness. I know it is easier to say for me, as I am not in your shoes. And I know just by saying, have strong and enduring strength of faith does not always bring you this confidence to in your world right time when you desperately need it. But you are not alone sister, he knows your plight. And I really sense it too. I will pray for your successful path through this wilderness to water...


Bless you,

APAK
 
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Irwin Fletcher

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The trial of trust I went through for temporal provision is now being mirrored by another trial for spiritual provision. It seems to me as if the first trial has given me some...strength for the second trial.

It also seems as if Israel in the desert pictures this - first they cried for food (temporal provision) and then they cried for water (spiritual provision, since we are told they all drank from the same spiritual rock, which was Jesus).

When I never had quite enough temporally, I seemed to have an abundance spiritually, but my focus was on the part I lacked and on why it pleased Him to put me in such poverty. (I know why now, and when I just determined to trust Him that He was doing good for me no matter what it looked like, He increased my temporal provision.)
So He was looking for trust instead of grumbling.

But, as soon as He did that, He seemed to abandon me and give me poverty spiritually. Abandonment, a thirsty desert without any water. But as I said, the first trial gave me some strength to hold firmer in the second trial, where I currently am, because amid the sighing and the thirst, the adamant shout that bursts forth at times is: He has NOT abandoned me, and despite what it looks and feels like, I know He is doing what's good for me.

It's not one or the other. If it were, I would ask Him for temporal poverty again in exchange for spiritual wealth. Having lived through both now, I would much prefer to turn back to temporal poverty rather than this harder poverty. But it doesnt work that way. I cant return to that but can only look forward. One of the hardest parts of it has been the removal of some fellowship i enjoyed and was helped by. I dont understand why i had to lose that, but I'm quite positive it's only temporary. Of course, Gods temporary feels like forever to me.

Thanks for sharing your struggles. Trials are always challenging, especially when we don't have Christian fellowship to help see us through them. God is enough, but the blessing of His Body does make it easier. I'll pray for a restoration of your fellowship and an end to spiritual dryness. God is good and may it be very temporary and over soon.
 

Prayer Warrior

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The trial of trust I went through for temporal provision is now being mirrored by another trial for spiritual provision. It seems to me as if the first trial has given me some...strength for the second trial.

It also seems as if Israel in the desert pictures this - first they cried for food (temporal provision) and then they cried for water (spiritual provision, since we are told they all drank from the same spiritual rock, which was Jesus).

When I never had quite enough temporally, I seemed to have an abundance spiritually, but my focus was on the part I lacked and on why it pleased Him to put me in such poverty. (I know why now, and when I just determined to trust Him that He was doing good for me no matter what it looked like, He increased my temporal provision.)
So He was looking for trust instead of grumbling.

But, as soon as He did that, He seemed to abandon me and give me poverty spiritually. Abandonment, a thirsty desert without any water. But as I said, the first trial gave me some strength to hold firmer in the second trial, where I currently am, because amid the sighing and the thirst, the adamant shout that bursts forth at times is: He has NOT abandoned me, and despite what it looks and feels like, I know He is doing what's good for me.

It's not one or the other. If it were, I would ask Him for temporal poverty again in exchange for spiritual wealth. Having lived through both now, I would much prefer to turn back to temporal poverty rather than this harder poverty. But it doesnt work that way. I cant return to that but can only look forward. One of the hardest parts of it has been the removal of some fellowship i enjoyed and was helped by. I dont understand why i had to lose that, but I'm quite positive it's only temporary. Of course, Gods temporary feels like forever to me.

I pray that you will have extra grace (God's saving and sustaining power) to get you through. What you're saying reminds me of a verse the Lord gave me during a very difficult desert time in my life.

Is 41:10 (AMP)--Fear not [there is nothing to fear], for I am with you; do not look around you in terror and be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen and harden you to difficulties, yes, I will help you; yes, I will hold you up and retain you with My [victorious] right hand of rightness and justice.
 

Truman

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I see the desert experience as a time that forces one's roots to grow deeper. It is a time for testing what's in one's heart. It is also a time for revealing one's need. "Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us..." Romans 5:4 Berean Study Bible
 

quietthinker

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The trial of trust I went through for temporal provision is now being mirrored by another trial for spiritual provision. It seems to me as if the first trial has given me some...strength for the second trial.

It also seems as if Israel in the desert pictures this - first they cried for food (temporal provision) and then they cried for water (spiritual provision, since we are told they all drank from the same spiritual rock, which was Jesus).

When I never had quite enough temporally, I seemed to have an abundance spiritually, but my focus was on the part I lacked and on why it pleased Him to put me in such poverty. (I know why now, and when I just determined to trust Him that He was doing good for me no matter what it looked like, He increased my temporal provision.)
So He was looking for trust instead of grumbling.

But, as soon as He did that, He seemed to abandon me and give me poverty spiritually. Abandonment, a thirsty desert without any water. But as I said, the first trial gave me some strength to hold firmer in the second trial, where I currently am, because amid the sighing and the thirst, the adamant shout that bursts forth at times is: He has NOT abandoned me, and despite what it looks and feels like, I know He is doing what's good for me.

It's not one or the other. If it were, I would ask Him for temporal poverty again in exchange for spiritual wealth. Having lived through both now, I would much prefer to turn back to temporal poverty rather than this harder poverty. But it doesnt work that way. I cant return to that but can only look forward. One of the hardest parts of it has been the removal of some fellowship i enjoyed and was helped by. I dont understand why i had to lose that, but I'm quite positive it's only temporary. Of course, Gods temporary feels like forever to me.
My thoughts are with you stunnedbygrace.....I hope you find encouragement in this animation of Pilgrims Progress
Matthew_ten_Verseight
 

Nancy

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Thanks for sharing your struggles. Trials are always challenging, especially when we don't have Christian fellowship to help see us through them. God is enough, but the blessing of His Body does make it easier. I'll pray for a restoration of your fellowship and an end to spiritual dryness. God is good and may it be very temporary and over soon.

Hello Irwin, and welcome to the forum. Fellowship to me is vital. I hope you like it here.
God Bless!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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This is from John Bunyan:

And thus sin puffs up men with pride, and a conceit of themselves that they are a thousand times better than they are: hence they think they are the children of God when they are the children of the devil, and that they are something as to Christianity when they neither are such, nor know what it is that they must have to make them such.

Now, whence flows this but from pride and a self-conceit of themselves, and that their state is good for another world, when they are yet in their sins, and under the curse of God: yea, and this pride is so strong and high, and yet so hidden in them, that all the ministers in the world cannot persuade them that this is pride, not grace, in which they are so confident.

That's terrifying...
 

quietthinker

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This is from John Bunyan:

And thus sin puffs up men with pride, and a conceit of themselves that they are a thousand times better than they are: hence they think they are the children of God when they are the children of the devil, and that they are something as to Christianity when they neither are such, nor know what it is that they must have to make them such.

Now, whence flows this but from pride and a self-conceit of themselves, and that their state is good for another world, when they are yet in their sins, and under the curse of God: yea, and this pride is so strong and high, and yet so hidden in them, that all the ministers in the world cannot persuade them that this is pride, not grace, in which they are so confident.

That's terrifying...
John Bunyans words here sbg are in my view spot on. Herein is the cause for blindness which prides itself as vision.
I must have the courage to ask myself 'is my vision blindness and how can I know if it possibly is'. These are searching questions the less than self honest will never discover let alone ask......they are left in their delusion.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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According to Bunyan, they/we are left in their delusion because God has not broken their hearts yet, even though they may have had an encounter with Him inwardly.

I've come to the conclusion that no command of God is given to us because we are capable of it or He expects it of us. Forgive others so He will forgive me? I cant. Forgiveness and love is not in me. The exact opposite is in me. Love Him with my whole heart and mind? I cannot. The selfishness in me prevents me from loving anyone more than myself.

So I think the commands are for us to see what we truly are and how impossible it will ever be for us to do what He commands us. And I think THAT is the broken and contrite heart. It may still see sin in others, but it will realize it's just like those others and maybe even worse, for its previously deceived state for so long, where it thought itself better somehow, even though it pretended it didnt think so.

And i think...that is a time to thank God for this mercy of breaking their heart, as they could have never broken their own heart, and for His previous forbearance with them, as odious as they had been in their deception.

And I think there is nothing to do but remain in your broken and contrite state and thank Him for doing it and rejoice that He cared for you enough to wound you in this manner and be attentive and very careful to not lift yourself back up to that high place again but just stay there in hope and wait.

He wont reject a broken heart if it is truly broken and refuses to do anything but beg for Him, since it has really seen its utter poverty finally. So I say, wait there the rest of your life if you have to. Say, this is my lot, this is where it has pleased Him to put me, and I will stay where it pleases Him to put me, because the alternative is unbearable. Here, I at least have hope.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Another thing that came to me. Our entire theology is built around pride. The whole OSAS framework is not tenable. There is no humility or trembling before God in it.

The last supper, those men knew themselves more truly than we do. They asked, is it me? Will I be the one to betray you? They really thought it could be them because they saw themselves accurately. We think it could never be us, even AS we are betraying Him to follow the devil in a pride that says we are saved and will never be shaken, never be moved, never be rejected, yes, not even for pride that we label and market as grace!

It would be funny if it weren't so terrifying. We use every promise of God to make an airtight case for ourselves and to give us a good outcome and with such pride we are assured that we're safe. All the word of God, taken together, should terrify us into great humility but...it doesnt work that way...it instead cements us further in our pride...

If that does not show you something's very wrong with us, and with the babbling tower we have constructed, I dont know what will.

We are not good. An encounter with God does not make us good. We will never be good. We are all condemned buildings. Many men had an encounter with God, repented, then hardened right back up. Their hearts were not truly broken. If they were, the men would have refused to stand back up unless God Himself lifted them up.

Even the command to humble yourself before God is impossible for a man. Only God can effect that and only through the breaking of the man until he sees that he himself is Gods enemy. He can get to hating the world, hating father and mother, but he can NOT get to hating even his own life unless God makes him to see the traitor that he is and still remains to be.
 
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Truman

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Another thing that came to me. Our entire theology is built around pride. The whole OSAS framework is not tenable. There is no humility or trembling before God in it.

The last supper, those men knew themselves more truly than we do. They asked, is it me? Will I be the one to betray you? They really thought it could be them because they saw themselves accurately. We think it could never be us, even AS we are betraying Him to follow the devil in a pride that says we are saved and will never be shaken, never be moved, never be rejected, yes, not even for pride that we label and market as grace!

It would be funny if it weren't so terrifying. We use every promise of God to make an airtight case for ourselves and to give us a good outcome and with such pride we are assured that we're safe. All the word of God, taken together, should terrify us into great humility but...it doesnt work that way...it instead cements us further in our pride...

If that does not show you something's very wrong with us, and with the babbling tower we have constructed, I dont know what will.

We are not good. An encounter with God does not make us good. We will never be good. We are all condemned buildings. Many men had an encounter with God, repented, then hardened right back up. Their hearts were not truly broken. If they were, the men would have refused to stand back up unless God Himself lifted them up.

Even the command to humble yourself before God is impossible for a man. Only God can effect that and only through the breaking of the man until he sees that he himself is Gods enemy. He can get to hating the world, hating father and mother, but he can NOT get to hating even his own life unless God makes him to see the traitor that he is and still remains to be.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for the new creation (spirit) and the baptism of fire is for the old nature (soul). Justification and sanctification are the first 2 parts of our being. The first is a one-time event and the second may take a lifetime.
Justification, sanctification, and glorification are the 3 aspects of salvation. I was justified in God's court of law, as well as my spirit was reborn of incorruptible seed. This means that my spirit can't sin.
My soul (mind, will, emotions) is being sanctified through the practice of the daily cross (which means my soul is sinful). God uses this to circumcise one's heart, which is the seat of our personality (soul and spirit).
My body will be glorified when Jesus returns again.
Over the course of decades of reading scripture and seeking God, I believe the Holy Spirit has put the above view of salvation together in my mind and heart. Maybe many believe this, perhaps few do. I know I do.
I know all of the above as it relates to clear biblical understanding. As always, do not take my word for it. Think for yourself, seek God for yourself, and as you read the word, read with your eyes and listen with your ears. Works for me. Shalom
 
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Truman

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Sorry, I dont understand any of that.
Hi. The man or woman of pride is the old, sinful nature. The soul. The answer to your above quandary is to deal with one's soul, which is where a born-again believer's sin originates.
God is a three-part being. Since we are made in His image, so are we. Spirit, soul, and body.
Today's church teaches, for the most part, that when we first believed, our spirit and soul were made perfect. The spirit is but not the soul. The result is what you said above.
Instant sanctification. A lie I think started by the father of lies. Satan. He is real. He's not alone, either. But can only do what God allows him to do.
In a nutshell, the solution to a sinful heart is what I like to call the daily cross. Then He said to them all, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow Me." Luke 9:23 NIV This is the difference between a believer in Christ and a disciple of Christ.
A believer is a carnal, immature Christian. A disciple is a maturing Christian. A disciple of Jesus dies to self(a process), not just denying self. Self-denial changes nothing.
The apostle Paul talks about how one is bound in marriage until either dies. Then the living one is free to remarry or stay single. He uses this as an example of how to get free from the bondage of sin permanently.
Don't try to do this all at once or with your own strength. You would be best to educate yourself about this subject and allow God to work it into you like one works yeast into bread.
The best advice I can give you is to think for yourself when it comes to spiritual matters and seek God for a first-hand understanding of His word. He did say to guard our hearts above all. I hope some of this makes sense to you. Have a nice day. Shalom
 

stunnedbygrace

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So...I have a spirit apart from Gods Spirit. That spirit has been made perfect, whereas before, it was imperfect. So that means I cant sin in my spirit? That does not sound right to me. It sounds...like a way to deal with sin that i cannot believe God approves of. It sounds like: the soul that sins will not surely die, so go ahead and eat.

I know that: the soul that sins will die. I think my soul is my mind, will and emotions. I cannot fathom a hidden, and unbeknownst to me, perfect part of me, even when my soul (mind, will, emotions) are used as instruments of sin.

I just cant grasp the saying that when I sin, there is a part of me that does not sin, and that's how a sinner is saved. Like I said, it sounds to me exactly like: you will not surely die!
 
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mjrhealth

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So...I have a spirit apart from Gods Spirit. That spirit has been made perfect, whereas before, it was imperfect. So that means I cant sin in my spirit? That does not sound right to me. It sounds...like a way to deal with sin that i cannot believe God approves of. It sounds like: the soul that sins will not surely die, so go ahead and eat.

I know that: the soul that sins will die. I think my soul is my mind, will and emotions. I cannot fathom a hidden, and unbeknownst to me, perfect part of me, even when my soul (mind, will, emotions) are used as instruments of sin.

I just cant grasp the saying that when I sin, there is a part of me that does not sin, and that's how a sinner is saved. Like I said, it sounds to me exactly like: you will not surely die!

Sin is the devils domain, not Christ, when we came to Christ, that barrier was removed, Oh yes we would all love to be perfect as HE is perfect . we would all love to be pleasing to God, cause than we can boast, We are Pleasing to God when we believe. As I said in previous post, Salvation is no longer the issue, If we believe Christ, Sin is no longer a problem, though many would love you to carry that burden to the grave, He did away with the condemnation, but the devil loves you to dwell on sin, thats how he gets you too feel guilty, Christ made you innocent, who do you believe, the religious, the devil or Christ.
 

stunnedbygrace

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There is a time for everything, even for mourning and for putting your face in the dust, and for being contrite. He does not despise a broken and contrite heart. In fact, that is His wonderful work, to make us a suitable habitation for Himself. So this is HIS work. And since I've finally seen that, the bones He has broken have begun to rejoice. Four dark months seemed unbearable at times but I would now gladly have seven times that if He wished it, for the good He brings me by it. I waited on Him and He did not disappoint me. That is not listening to the devil, friend.
 

mjrhealth

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That is not listening to the devil, friend.
But what has that got to do with what I wrote, as for suffering Christ Suffered so we would not have to, we just are not very good at trusting Him, if we did, we would be healing teh sick, setting captives free, causing teh blind to see teh deaf to hear, as Joseph prince put it today,

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Problem is we dont receive it freely , we desire to pay for it all, so we dont give freely, again as Joseph put it, you dont clean yourself before you take a bath, Christ is out bath, It is He who cleanses us, that we cannot do it ourselves.

We know your struggles,

God bless
 

quietthinker

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Another thing that came to me. Our entire theology is built around pride. The whole OSAS framework is not tenable. There is no humility or trembling before God in it.

The last supper, those men knew themselves more truly than we do. They asked, is it me? Will I be the one to betray you? They really thought it could be them because they saw themselves accurately. We think it could never be us, even AS we are betraying Him to follow the devil in a pride that says we are saved and will never be shaken, never be moved, never be rejected, yes, not even for pride that we label and market as grace!

It would be funny if it weren't so terrifying. We use every promise of God to make an airtight case for ourselves and to give us a good outcome and with such pride we are assured that we're safe. All the word of God, taken together, should terrify us into great humility but...it doesnt work that way...it instead cements us further in our pride...

If that does not show you something's very wrong with us, and with the babbling tower we have constructed, I dont know what will.

We are not good. An encounter with God does not make us good. We will never be good. We are all condemned buildings. Many men had an encounter with God, repented, then hardened right back up. Their hearts were not truly broken. If they were, the men would have refused to stand back up unless God Himself lifted them up.

Even the command to humble yourself before God is impossible for a man. Only God can effect that and only through the breaking of the man until he sees that he himself is Gods enemy. He can get to hating the world, hating father and mother, but he can NOT get to hating even his own life unless God makes him to see the traitor that he is and still remains to be.
God sees my many failings yet still he loves me enough to give his life for me. I am drawn to him because of that and this drawing does not leave me where I was found. In much long-suffering he teaches me his way and as I am willing and can understand he changes me into his image......for his glory and my joy.
 
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