Confused!!

love♥The♥Lord said:

James the brother of Jesus said: " faith without work is worthless "

but Paul said: no need to work as long as you have faith..

the question is whom should we adhere? James, the brother of Jesus whom we love? or Paul who came 300 years after Jesus and used to hunt christians?

Help me please..

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First of all Paul did not come 300 years after the other apostles. Read acts and you will see he was preaching the gospel, after his conversion, when the other apostles were.

When Paul talks about no need to work as long as you have faith he means that you can do nothing to add to faith and that faith is what you need to receive Christ. Paul is not saying we don't need works but that works won't save us as only faith in Jesus will. James is enlarging on the subject by showing us that faith without works is dead faith. In other words we do the works of God not to get faith or to keep faith but to show faith. The works don't save us but are the outward signs of our faith. For example if I, by faith say I love the God who says to love your enemies and I show love to an enemy then I am doing the work of God but not to gain favor from God but because I love Him and want to do what pleases Him. But if I, by faith, say I love the God that said love your enemies and then I show hatred or indifference to my enemies then I show my faith is dead.

Sorry for rambling a bit. I hope this helps.

love♥The♥Lord said:

James the brother of Jesus said: " faith without work is worthless "

but Paul said: no need to work as long as you have faith..

the question is whom should we adhere? James, the brother of Jesus whom we love? or Paul who came 300 years after Jesus and used to hunt christians?

Help me please..

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First, I don’t know where you got the idea that Paul came 300 years later. Although he did not walk along side of Christ, Paul was very much alive then. He talked with Peter and James.

Secondly, whenever it seems that the Scriptures are contradicting themselves we need to realize that it is our mistake not the Scripture. Paul is talking about “works of the law,” a Hebrew figure of speech that means things like circumcision, ritual washing, etc. Those are the “works” that are not needed. James is talking about something else. James is talking about doing good things for others because of your faith in Christ. Things like giving a person a cold glass of water when they are thirsty, or something to eat when they are hungry, etc. These are “good deeds” we do because we know Christ gave His all for us.

Paul who came 300 Years after.

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Paul meet up with Peter......... so you might want to recheck your time lines some. :lol:

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


The scriptures are talking about two different things.

Paul is talking about being justified by grace though faith. We can not work for our Salvation. The key word is "Believeth on Him" Believe in Jesus. He said that Works, such as doing things for the Church, Helping old ladies across the street, Giving money to help someone pay rent, is not going to get you justified in the eyes of God, but only the Work Jesus did on the Cross. Doing these things is good, but your reward is given, because you have sown those things to the Church, or another person. God will pay back, and multiply back to you what good deeds you have done.

Pro 19:17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.


So, all the good works we do, does not earn us Salvation, but faith in Jesus Christ will. God repays back to us the good we have done.


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James:

James is talking about something else. A brother and sister need food, So you use your faith to pray over them, and speak be well fed. Then you go your way. Faith, will step out and give them the food they need, believing God to continue to supply your need.

This is like praying for something.........

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Now if you have faith, faith will respond and get ready. There is a works side to faith. Let's say you believe God for a Job. Jesus said believe that you already receive what you asked for. Faith won't lay around all day on the couch, hoping a job comes knocking on the door. Faith gets ready, and looks for a Job. Faith believes that they will come back with a Job, or some possible good choices. Real faith acts........

Lets say you were told you can't have children because of some medical condition.......... Faith that believes God for a Child will respond. Though your not pregnant, faith that believes God answers prayer will step out and get a baby room ready, may even stock up on diapers. Faith believes God, and prepares. Just like Noah did, while building the ark. No rain in sight, no flood, but Noah believed God and built a boat.

So, Works without faith is dead. If you believe something you will act on it. It is not the same as faith in Your salvation. Works won't earn that, and that is What Paul was saying.

Jesus Is Lord

I've moved your topic to where you can participate in the appropriate section.

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Explains why my post error-ed out......

Nyoka said:

First of all Paul did not come 300 years after the other apostles. Read acts and you will see he was preaching the gospel, after his conversion, when the other apostles were.

When Paul talks about no need to work as long as you have faith he means that you can do nothing to add to faith and that faith is what you need to receive Christ. Paul is not saying we don't need works but that works won't save us as only faith in Jesus will. James is enlarging on the subject by showing us that faith without works is dead faith. In other words we do the works of God not to get faith or to keep faith but to show faith. The works don't save us but are the outward signs of our faith. For example if I, by faith say I love the God who says to love your enemies and I show love to an enemy then I am doing the work of God but not to gain favor from God but because I love Him and want to do what pleases Him. But if I, by faith, say I love the God that said love your enemies and then I show hatred or indifference to my enemies then I show my faith is dead.

Sorry for rambling a bit. I hope this helps.

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Good post. I agree with this one 100%

Paul who used to be named Saul before he became a follower of Jesus took part in the death of the first Christian martyr Stephen.

Acts 7
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

I am interested to know where you got this 300 years after Jesus information? What ever the source you can be assured that the source is false.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

love♥The♥Lord said:

James the brother of Jesus said: " faith without work is worthless "

but Paul said: no need to work as long as you have faith..

the question is whom should we adhere? James, the brother of Jesus whom we love? or Paul who came 300 years after Jesus and used to hunt christians?

Help me please..

Click to expand...

Thats easy.. whats the common denominator? Faith, right.. so it’s through faith that we allow the Spirit to do good works through us. Not that of ourselves. We are also told in other passeges that it is not by our works that we will be saved.. so paul is saying exactly the same thing as james.. FAITH>> hope this helped u.. dale

One is spirirual , one is flesh. If you have faith in God and ,"HE", sends you, then the works of God will follow you, just as they did the disciples, if you believe you have faith, and go where God has not sent you, will the works follow?, probably not, its about us allowing God to work through us, its not aboutr us running around trying to please God. And so it is in the second verse, that when you have faith, you have no need to work to try earn yourself a place, that is for God not for you. If God has not sent you Himself, i would never go. If a man told me that God wants me to go somewhere to do something, id recomend he go himself. If on the other hand , God spoke to me and told me to go somewhere, then someone came to me and confirmed what God had spoken, then I would go. There are thousands of christans all over the world running around thinking they are doing the works of God, but only pleasing the flesh, its a dangerous place to be.

In His Love

love♥The♥Lord said:

James the brother of Jesus said: " faith without work is worthless "

but Paul said: no need to work as long as you have faith..

the question is whom should we adhere? James, the brother of Jesus whom we love? or Paul who came 300 years after Jesus and used to hunt christians?

Help me please..

Click to expand...

Your gonna need some patience on this one lovethelord. No doubt there will be the naysayers to put you off from considering the following, but if you look in the Book without bias or traditional approaches, you will find the conflict is easily resolved.

Jesus declared that His commission from the Father did not include us.
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He never while on earth declared otherwise. His promises to His people Israel had to be confirmed because He spoke it to the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

Our place as gentiles and strangers to the covenants of God would never have changed had ALL Israel repented and gotten baptized. They refused God's mercy and offer of the King and the Kingdom, so God, using the persecutor Saul of Tarsus, began the dispensation of grace.
Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish
my course with joy and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of
the grace of God.
Ac 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the
Gentiles by his ministry.
Ro 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

The saints of Israel, under the leadership of the Twelve Apostles did not come to pass as it was suppose to. God purposely locked them all up in stubbornness that He could show mercy to everyone, not just the Jew.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye (gentiles)should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers'sakes For as ye (gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


When the Lord returns as the Son of Mankind, instead of as the Savior the first time, it will be to judge the nations.
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when
the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve
tribes of Israel.
Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd
divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Israel to will receive her judgment, at the time of Jacob's trouble and the great persecution that comes upon them, just before His return. Following the tribulation period, and Satan being bound for the thousand years, the resurrected saints of Israel, along with the 144,000 will take their place in service to Him on the earth, inheriting the promised land.

They will be governing all the earth according to the commandments of the sermon on the Mount. They WILL have works, and that is what He wanted the first time. But they could not do it. When He returns, He will write His laws on their hearts and minds, supernaturally writing His law in their consciences, and bypassing faith.

For when He appears, and rules with a rod of iron, faith will give way to sight, and the presence of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the earth. There will be no need of faith at that time, but works will be in high demand, and transgressors dealt with swiftly.

Till He returns, the Jew will always need to provide the evidence of faith and works in order to meet God's approval. They promised Him at Sinai that they would, and He will not let them out of the agreement.

Paul's commission came from the glorified Christ, Who returned to earth and appeared visibly to him.

The twelve received their commission from the resurrected, but not yet exalted, Son of God.

Paul received the last of the prophetic utterances of God to men, not Peter or James or John, or any other.

James, the writer you are referring to was not even an apostle of the Lord. He was the Lord's brother in the flesh. Towards the end of the Kingdom offer, he had even more influence over the Jewish believers in Jerusalem than Peter did, who was one of the twelve, indicating how messed up things had become.

We are new creations in Christ, not born-again, earthbound vessels of the resurrection to come. We, the Body of Christ, are way beyond regeneration. We are a new humanity, totally new, not connected to the earth other than biding our time til death or the shout to ascend. We will be transformed, as He was, the corruption putting on heavenly clothing and deathlessness.

Not so the ones who He came to the first time around. They are still under the Law. They still need to repent and be baptised in order to enter into the blood covenant of our Lord and Saviour. He has them locked up, and until the Gentile period of grace and mercy and election is completed, it will stay that way. The dead in the tombs shall hear His voice just as Lazuras did, and will be born-again to another physical existence, apart from death.

Two different gospels, one to the circumcision, Jewish, with the Law of the Mount and the Lords commands.

The gospel of grace, to the uncircumsicion, the gentile and believing Jew, ministered by Paul and those who followed him.

AV 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I know that there will be contention in the minds of some, but Galations is definitive and thorough enough to the honest student of the Scriptures to conclude the different evangels. Paul's and the Twelve. Grace and Law. Regeneration and new creation. One has a future in the earth, the other in the heavens.

They do not mix.

fivesense

love♥The♥Lord said:

James the brother of Jesus said: " faith without work is worthless "

but Paul said: no need to work as long as you have faith..

the question is whom should we adhere? James, the brother of Jesus whom we love? or Paul who came 300 years after Jesus and used to hunt christians?

Help me please..

Click to expand...

Be careful here not to misinterpret. Where does faith come from? Who does the work?

fivesense said:

....Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel....
fivesense

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I suppose it is pointless to tell you who these "lost sheep of the house of Israel" are? God hasn't lost them, they haave lost themselves. Are you one of them?

jerryjohnson said:

I suppose it is pointless to tell you who these "lost sheep of the house of Israel" are? God hasn't lost them, they haave lost themselves. Are you one of them?

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And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, Isa 6:9-11

It's pretty easy jerryjohnson. Not pointless at all. In fact, it is very necessary to correctly divide the word, as you attest to, and apportion that which applies to Israel that which is hers. Their continual adultry, fornication and unbelief, the reason for the Covenant not coming to fruition, made them lost indeed.

Having never been a part of those things, the promises and the legislations and the law, I as a Gentile have never been lost. I never had a place in God, I was an outsider and alien and a stranger. You can't be lost if you never had a starting point to begin with. I was a vessel fitted for destruction and wrath, as were you, and in God's mercy and providence was elected for salvation through faith and grace apart from the law. Got to rightly divide, jerry, or you only promulgate confusion.
fivesense

fivesense


God, didn't lose them, they lost themselves. Someday they will wake up. Some all ready have.

I know I'm a bit late in getting to this one, but I wanted to respond anyway...

Nyoka --

I totally agree. When James says "Faith without works is dead," he is saying that our actions show our faith. It's just like the saying, "Actions speak louder than words." That's why James said, "But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.'" When Paul says that faith is "not of works" but by grace, he is saying that it is not our own good works that earn us brownie points; it is God's works that we do -- the actions that prove our faith, which actions are in keeping with God's commandments.

Fivesense --

True, we Gentiles were "outsiders and aliens and strangers" who were saved by God's mercy. However, you contradict when you say that "I as a Gentile have never been lost," because if you were never lost, there would have been no point for God to have mercy on you and make you a vessel of honor -- a vessel of wrath would be no big deal because you were ever lost to begin with. (But a vessel of wrath is a bad thing, as we all know.) Actually, we were lost precisely BECAUSE we "never had a place in God" to begin with. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." THAT is the starting point. So to say that you were never lost because you are a Gentile is beside the point. Yes, certain things in Scripture apply solely to Israel, but some things also apply to us [Gentiles]; Galatians 3:13-29 speak about this:

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

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At first glance, this may seem to imply that through faith in Christ the Gentiles are saved, and this is true; however, you will notice that Paul says, "if you are Christ's, than you are Abraham's seed" -- wasn't Abraham's seed Israel? Yes, but here, Paul states that if we Gentiles are Christ's than WE are Abraham's seed, as well -- we are "Israelites" in a sense, the "Israel of God" as Paul puts it. Look at Galatians 6: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to
this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). The Scriptures are pretty clear on the matter. So,
yes, we are Gentiles who were saved by God's mercy from our status as vessels of wrath; but to believe on Christ makes us one with Israel. That doesn't mean that we are responsible for that nation's sins; but we ARE responsible for our own sins. Sinning makes us "lost." Don't you remember Jesus' parable about the 100 sheep? He said that the if the Shepherd LOSES one sheep, He leaves the fold and looks for it until he finds it. He didn't say that this was Israel; His point was that when one person is lost in his sins apart from God, He will go and search for that one until He finds him. To say that you have never been lost is to say that you have never sinned, and the Bible says that if you say that, you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you (1 John 1:8). When Paul speaks of the law in
Galatians 3, he says that it classifies ALL under sin, not just the Jews. So you can't say that just because you are not a part of Israel's sin therefore you "were never lost." It's circular reasoning. Yes, Jesus says that He was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel," but that does not mean that they all accepted the Gospel, and it certainly does not mean that everyone else is not lost. As a matter of fact, it would be pointless for Christ to come and die for EVERYONE, if the Gentiles had never sinned, or were "never lost," as you put it. Look at Romans 3:23-24, 26-31 :

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus... To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

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You see, salvation was originally for the Jews, but when they rejected it, God turned to the Gentiles. It's not because we were never lost; it's because of God's mercy toward us. When Paul and Barnabas were preaching to the Jews and they rejected it, Paul said, "We turn to the Gentiles; for so the Lord has commanded us..." The very next verse says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). This is the case throughout the NT (and Acts, in particular): the woman at the well was a half-breed; Jesus healed the Syrophonecians's daughter even though she was called a "dog" for being a Gentile; Cornelius was a Gentile to whom God sent Peter to preach the Gospel (and in fact, God gave Peter and Paul a ministry to the Gentiles); the Ethiopian eunich heard the gospel from Philip; and there are many more examples. In fact, that is why Jesus came, according Isaiah 42:4-8 :

"'He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law.' Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 'I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house. I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.'"

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"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Romans 2:28-29).

WHEW! I think I'll quite now... Please rest assured that it is not my intention to debate; if you don't agree, I don't mind discussing it further, but I don't want to get into an arguement over it...

Its already been stated above so im just repeating here,

but just to reiterate, Paul is saying that a person does not need to perform 'works of law' that is 'works of the mosaic law' because its our faith in Jesus that is the new 'works of law' . For the jews, the 'works of law' were things like ritual washing, sacrifices, monetry contributions, tithes etc and for those works they were blessed and counted as righteous. However the christians were set free from those sorts of 'works' and so Paul was telling them that it was by faith that they were counted as righteous and blessed by God...however, there should still be evidence of that faith thru works of a different type.

James is speaking about how our faith in Jesus will affect us. It will motivate us to action. It will cause us to act with love and those 'works' would identify us as having true faith. It would be things like 'giving generously to all' and 'showing kindness to others' and 'spreading the good news'...these are all 'works' that prove we have faith in Jesus and follow his way.

You must understand that they are each speaking of two different types of 'works'

Rudy said:

I know I'm a bit late in getting to this one, but I wanted to respond anyway...

Fivesense --

True, we Gentiles were "outsiders and aliens and strangers" who were saved by God's mercy. However, you contradict when you say that "I as a Gentile have never been lost," because if you were never lost, there would have been no point for God to have mercy on you and make you a vessel of honor -- a vessel of wrath would be no big deal because you were ever lost to begin with. (But a vessel of wrath is a bad thing, as we all know.) Actually, we were lost precisely BECAUSE we "never had a place in God" to WHEW! I think I'll quite now...

Please rest assured that it is not my intention to debate; if you don't agree, I don't mind discussing it further, but I don't want to get into an arguement over it...

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It is absolutely wonderful that you have that awareness of the differences. It enhances our relationship to Him greatly when we give honor and respect to Him for His election and calling of whomever He desires. It is allowing God to be God.

I do not see your earnestness in the present subject as something that would kindle flames of passion leading to evil speaking. I have no need to debate and argue any point that God has made evidently clear, such as my position of never being "lost". In order to satisfy you though, I suggest a simple exercise... I will do it as well with you... Find each occurence of "lost" in the Greek and trace it throughout the NT where it is used. I will be quite surprised if it says anywhere that the Gentiles were "lost". Possession precedes loss; Israel was the Lord's possession, we never were. That is the context. That is the sense of the word in context.

Paul, our Apostle, never once said we, the Gentiles, were ever "lost", not once.

To make the claim, that I, fivesense, was once "lost" til God made me a vessel of honor, would be untrue and unscriptural. It is not to be found in the Book. I was never lost.

If you should chance upon evidence to the contrary, that the nations were once in a lost condition, I would appreciate it if you tell me where to find it, so I may see it as well. I must believe God, and you must help me to do that. So if I am in error, you must correct me with the passages that are relevent to my need.
Prosper in God, Rudy
fivesense

Pegg said:

Its already been stated above so im just repeating here,

but just to reiterate, Paul is saying that a person does not need to perform 'works of law' that is 'works of the mosaic law' because its our faith in Jesus that is the new 'works of law' . For the jews, the 'works of law' were things like ritual washing, sacrifices, monetry contributions, tithes etc and for those works they were blessed and counted as righteous. However the christians were set free from those sorts of 'works' and so Paul was telling them that it was by faith that they were counted as righteous and blessed by God...however, there should still be evidence of that faith thru works of a different type.

James is speaking about how our faith in Jesus will affect us. It will motivate us to action. It will cause us to act with love and those 'works' would identify us as having true faith. It would be things like 'giving generously to all' and 'showing kindness to others' and 'spreading the good news'...these are all 'works' that prove we have faith in Jesus and follow his way.

You must understand that they are each speaking of two different types of 'works'

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What was stated and CLARIFIED was these works of the law were the rituals added by man/talmud ... but it's ever so much easier to ignore a distinction and continue on with no heed for torah still being in effect.


"For the jews, the 'works of law' were things like ritual washing, sacrifices, monetry contributions, tithes etc and for those works they were blessed and counted as righteous"

NO these were NEVER counted as righteousness by anyone BUT THEMSELVES ... the phariess came against Him because of condemning talmud and exposing their self-righteousness.

fivesense said:

It is absolutely wonderful that you have that awareness of the differences. It enhances our relationship to Him greatly when we give honor and respect to Him for His election and calling of whomever He desires. It is allowing God to be God.

I do not see your earnestness in the present subject as something that would kindle flames of passion leading to evil speaking. I have no need to debate and argue any point that God has made evidently clear, such as my position of never being "lost". In order to satisfy you though, I suggest a simple exercise... I will do it as well with you... Find each occurence of "lost" in the Greek and trace it throughout the NT where it is used. I will be quite surprised if it says anywhere that the Gentiles were "lost". Possession precedes loss; Israel was the Lord's possession, we never were. That is the context. That is the sense of the word in context.

Paul, our Apostle, never once said we, the Gentiles, were ever "lost", not once.

To make the claim, that I, fivesense, was once "lost" til God made me a vessel of honor, would be untrue and unscriptural. It is not to be found in the Book. I was never lost.

If you should chance upon evidence to the contrary, that the nations were once in a lost condition, I would appreciate it if you tell me where to find it, so I may see it as well. I must believe God, and you must help me to do that. So if I am in error, you must correct me with the passages that are relevent to my need.
Prosper in God, Rudy
fivesense

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fivesense

you will NEVER find anything anywhere about gentiles being "lost" in relation to the 10 tribes ... the gentiles were NEVER A PART of the 10 tribes ... until you throw away this replacement theology and realize Israel was never replaced, those saved by grace are GRAFTED into, wild branches into the natural olive tree ... you will never stop denying 10 tribes were lost.

JarBreaker said:

What was stated and CLARIFIED was these works of the law were the rituals added by man/talmud ... but it's ever so much easier to ignore a distinction and continue on with no heed for torah still being in effect.

"For the jews, the 'works of law' were things like ritual washing, sacrifices, monetry contributions, tithes etc and for those works they were blessed and counted as righteous"

NO these were NEVER counted as righteousness by anyone BUT THEMSELVES ... the phariess came against Him because of condemning talmud and exposing their self-righteousness.

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Paul does show in Galatians 3:10-12 that the 'works of law' that he was talking about were infact the ones written 'in the scroll of the law' This is the Mosaic Law code....not the talumd because the first Talmud (the palestinian talmud) wasnt produced until the 4th century. So if the Talmud didnt exist until then, how could Paul have been speaking about the 'works of law' according to whats written in the Talmud??? Its impossible unless you believe Paul lived in the 4th century.

from what we read in the NT of Jesus words to the jews of his day, it certainly seems that they were performing 'works of law' according to what is wirtten in the Mosaic law code (found in the Pentateuch), as a means of appearing righteous before others and even to declare themselves righteous Luke 16:15 .

Matthew 23:5 Numbers 15:38 Deut 6:8
Matthew 6:2 Leviticus 19:9,10 Deut 24:19
Mark 7:11 Leviticus 6:14

Im not sure why I loose the links to the scriptures when I make an edit.... is there some way to stop that???


Matthew 23:5 Numbers 15:38 Deut 6:8
Matthew 6:2 Leviticus 19:9,10 Deut 24:19
Mark 7:11 Leviticus 6:14

fivesense said:

... Paul, our Apostle, never once said we, the Gentiles, were ever "lost", not once.

To make the claim, that I, fivesense, was once "lost" til God made me a vessel of honor, would be untrue and unscriptural. It is not to be found in the Book. I was never lost.

If you should chance upon evidence to the contrary, that the nations were once in a lost condition, I would appreciate it if you tell me where to find it, so I may see it as well...

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Fivesense,

I was working on a response, but I believe the Lord is leading me in different direction today... I want to share something with you:

Ephesians 4:17-24 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

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The word "alienated" speaks for itself, but just to be sure, I looked up the Greek meanings (some of which are): "away, foreign, separation." This does not simply mean that the Gentiles did not belong with Israel; for it says that they were alienated "from the life of God." In fact, the Ephesians were once Gentiles, but Paul preached to them and started a church there (other passages in Ephesians make this quite clear)! Furthermore, Paul states that the Ephesians "have not so learned Christ" precisely because they did not walk as the Gentiles walked. The context of this Scripture make it perfectly clear that the Gentiles were lost; in short, Paul is saying, "Don't be lost like the Gentiles are."

Simply put,,,

Works are a sign of faith. Works don't save you and there's nothing you can do of yourself.

So, in other words. If you truely believe you'll obey.