Robots and Will Worshipers

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Renniks

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You offer no argument on the matter that opposes my position and you appeal to nonsense towards a Strawman.

God doesn't act like Satan, He controls Satan along with everything else.
First, what is your position? Second, if God controls Satan, then he essentially is Satan or worse.
If I hire a hitman to kill you, I'm just as guilty as the hitman. More so, because I have the murderous intent, the hitman is just following orders.
 

Renniks

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You offer no argument on the matter that opposes my position and you appeal to nonsense towards a Strawman.

God doesn't act like Satan, He controls Satan along with everything else.

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes."

Calvinist interpretation. "Put on the full armor of God, so you can oppose what God is doing to you through Satan." (although it's actually God doing it, you can't really oppose anything, you are just a robot.)

2 Thessalonians 3:3
"But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one."

Calvinist interpretation:" The Lord might protect you from himself when he sends the devil after you. Sometimes. If he feels like it. Otherwise, you just our of luck.

"The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

Calvinist interpretation: The weapons God uses to fight against his own plans are not worldly weapons. On the contrary, he uses his own power to demolish what he causes in the first place. We don't do anything, we are just along for the ride, whether God decides to let Satan kick us in the head or not.
 

Rudometkin

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"At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. 8But if that nation I warned turns from its evil,
then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to bring. 9And if at another time I announce that I will build up and establish a nation or kingdom
10and if it does evil in My sight and does not listen to My voice, then I will relent of the good I had intended for it."

Now we see that it's just not God acting arbitrarily on Isreal but acting according to what they have done. It's the opposite of determinism.

Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 

Renniks

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Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Context:
God knew under what conditions the nation of Assyria would freely choose to go attack Israel, and He did not choose to intervene and defeat Assyria at the time because of his people's disobedience.

Amos 3:6-7 is much like the theme of Isaiah 42-48. God is said to declare all His works to His prophets before God acts. The concept is that people can then differentiate between God’s acts and happenstance. It is not very convincing to attribute acts to God “after the fact”. Any false religion can do that. The test of a true God is revealing power acts before those acts are accomplished.

Notice how this passage is antithetical to concepts such as God controlling all things. If God does everything, and everything God does is told to his prophets, then God would have to be communicating all sorts of endless, infinite, trivial things to people that have neither the time nor the brainpower to process. The assumption in Amos is that God does not do everything, and that when God does act in a way to show His power He then makes it public such that He can gain credit.
 

Rudometkin

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if God controls Satan, then he essentially is Satan or worse.

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Psalm 145:17
The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
 
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Renniks

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2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Psalm 145:17
The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
Is that all you have? Cherry-picked verses with no context? Because I can literally make the Bible say anything with that technique.
 

Renniks

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Matches what I consider to be creepy theology. But not everyone sees it the way. I understand that.
I don't have a problem with that song, and here's why: I know what God wants for me is what is best. The problem is when you take that concept and apply it to a God who seems to play both sides of the fence, controlling Satan and claiming to be good. If one knows God to be truly good in every sense of the word, yielding to him makes sense. If one embraces the Calvinist's schizophrenic God, such a thought is terrifying.
 
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Rudometkin

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Is that all you have? Cherry-picked verses with no context? Because I can literally make the Bible say anything with that technique.

It is all I need.

Ok. Please demonstrate it by making the Bible say "Renniks is wrong in his theology".
 

Renniks

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It is all I need.

Ok. Please demonstrate it by making the Bible say "Renniks is wrong in his theology".
Lol, you want me to argue against myself? You are already demonstrating that by coming up with crazy concepts like God controlling what the devil does, when scripture tells us God does not tempt anyone to do evil.

But I could take verses out of context and say abortion is super great and fine because there's a verse saying it's blessed to dash a newborns head against a rock, for example. Only I refuse to warp scripture like that.
 

Rudometkin

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Lol, you want me to argue against myself? You are already demonstrating that by coming up with crazy concepts like God controlling what the devil does, when scripture tells us God does not tempt anyone to do evil.

But I could take verses out of context and say abortion is super great and fine because there's a verse saying it's blessed to dash a newborns head against a rock, for example. Only I refuse to warp scripture like that.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Thanks for joining in, Barney.

Then what of His knowledge? Do you believe He is all-knowing?

When it comes to Gods, supernatural abilities such as being all-knowing or all-powerful these abilities don't control him but instead he controls them. What I mean is we know God is all-powerful but that doesn't mean God uses every bit of his power 24/7 otherwise this universe would have been destroyed long ago, so God uses his abilities selectively or discretionary. So while God is also all-knowing, that ability doesn't control him but he controls it selectively, discretionary so whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee and foreknow, he does not. So God's determination of his creatures eternal destinies await his judgment of their course of life and their proved attitude under test.
 

Renniks

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1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
First, the honest Bible student must observe that the narrative involves a vision that is highly symbolic. Therefore, it would be unwise to press it as though it were a literal circumstance. Micaiah answered Ahab with two parabolic visions. “In the first, Israel was likened to shepherdless sheep scattered on the mountains, which must find their own way home (v. 17). In the second Micaiah described a heavenly scene in which the Lord and his hosts discussed the best way to get Ahab to Ramoth Gilead so that he might fall in battle (vss. 19-23)” (Patterson and Austel, 1988, p. 164). Commentator Adam Clarke wisely noted that this account is an illustration, and “only tells, in figurative language, what was in the womb of providence, the events which were shortly to take place, the agents employed in them, and the permission on the part of God for these agents to act” (n.d., 2:476). Another writer has observed: “Visions of the invisible world can only be a sort of parables; revelation, not of the truth as it actually is, but of so much of the truth as can be shown through such a medium. The details of a vision, therefore, cannot safely be pressed, any more than the details of a parable” (Cook, 1981, 2:619).

Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (Exodus 7:3,13; 9:12; 10:1; et al.), “incited David against” Israel (2 Samuel 24:1), “deceived” His people (Jeremiah 4:10), and given them “statutes that were not good” (Ezekiel 20:25). In the New Testament, God is characterized as sending a strong delusion that some might believe a lie and be condemned (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). Even Jesus used “commands” at times in a permissive sense. For example, He commanded the demons to “go” into the herd of pigs (Matthew 8:32), yet the preceding verse informs the reader that the demons begged Jesus to let them enter the swine. Thus, He was not the initiator of the demons’ move (from inhabiting man to dwelling in pigs), He merely permitted them to do so. Similarly, when Jesus told Judas, “What you do, do quickly” (John 13:27), He was not giving Him a direct command, or forcing Judas to betray Him. Rather, Jesus permitted Judas’ actions, and (since He knew what Judas was about to do) even encouraged him to do it quickly. All of these passages basically indicate that when men are determined to disobey their Creator, He allows them to follow the base inclination of their own hearts. Such was the case with Ahab and his false prophets. God knew their hearts. He knew Ahab was going to go to war before he ever consulted with his prophets (1 Kings 22:3-4). He knew that the prophets were accustomed to telling the king whatever he wanted to hear (cf. 22:8), and He knew that they were also going to tickle Ahab’s “itching ear” on this occasion (cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4). Although God’s will was made known to Ahab and his prophets in this case (i.e., Micaiah warned Ahab of the impending doom), He permitted their hardened hearts to believe a lie.

God permits all kinds of things to happen because of the hardness of men's hearts. This works in all the theological systems except Calvinism, ironically.
God can't permit anything under determinism, because he has already caused everything that will ever happen.
 

Renniks

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When it comes to Gods, supernatural abilities such as being all-knowing or all-powerful these abilities don't control him but instead he controls them. What I mean is we know God is all-powerful but that doesn't mean God uses every bit of his power 24/7 otherwise this universe would have been destroyed long ago, so God uses his abilities selectively or discretionary. So while God is also all-knowing, that ability doesn't control him but he controls it selectively, discretionary so whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee and foreknow, he does not. So God's determination of his creatures eternal destinies await his judgment of their course of life and their proved attitude under test.
Interesting perspective. Can God decide not to see some future events? I am hesitant to say either way myself. I don't see how God can not know everything in advance, seeing as time is something he created and there's no time in space, at least not in the same sense as time on earth. But on the other hand, being all-powerful, God would seem to be able to restrict his abilities to see all happenings at once. Which is why I am still stuck somewhere between Arminianism and Open Theism...
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Interesting perspective. Can God decide not to see some future events? I am hesitant to say either way myself. I don't see how God can not know everything in advance, seeing as time is something he created and there's no time in space, at least not in the same sense as time on earth. But on the other hand, being all-powerful, God would seem to be able to restrict his abilities to see all happenings at once. Which is why I am still stuck somewhere between Arminianism and Open Theism...

I think time is how you look at it. I think God views time different than we do because God isn't part of creation. We measure time by the sun or moon, so God created that time yes, but does that mean no time existed at all before God brought creation into existence? God is the one who brought creation into existence, God does know exactly how he designed creation including us humans. So the question, did God know exactly what would happen if Adam and Eve disobeyed him because he looked into the the future to see exactly what would happen or did God know exactly what would happen because of how God designed Adam.
 
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Renniks

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I think time is how you look at it. I think God views time different than we do because God isn't part of creation. We measure time by the sun or moon, so God created that time yes, but does that mean no time existed at all before God brought creation into existence? God is the one who brought creation into existence, God does know exactly how he designed creation including us humans. So the question, did God know exactly what would happen if Adam and Eve disobeyed him because he looked into the the future to see exactly what would happen or did God know exactly what would happen because of how God designed Adam.
Well, if you look at the different theories on this through the ages, you nearly always have God seeing the future or multiple futures in most. More later, gotta go for a bike ride.

Lewis for example saw God as outside of time seeing all events... Possibly problematic, but greatly influential to a lot of Christian thought.