To @DNB concerning the Deity of Christ...

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justbyfaith

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Hi @DNB,

You have said that you are not a Jehovah's Witness and yet categorically deny the Deity of Christ.

I assume that if you are not a JW then you do not go by the New World Translation.

So, a few things:

In John 1:1 and John 1:14, how is it that you do not see that the Bible explicitly declares that Jesus is God?

And also, in Psalms 50:1 (kjv), we find that the LORD (Jehovah) is the mighty God.

Therefore, in Isaiah 9:6, if you go by the kjv rather than the NeWT, it tells us that Jesus (the son that was given) is Jehovah (the LORD).

If I were a JW, I would wonder at that. I would think on these things, and understand that the NeWT gives a message that is biased against the doctrine of Christ's Deity. Because Psalms 50:1 is not accurately translated in the NeWT.

I would understand that I am being cheated out of sound doctrine by a biased translation of the Bible.
 
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DNB

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Hi @DNB,

You have said that you are not a Jehovah's Witness and yet categorically deny the Deity of Christ.

I assume that if you are not a JW then you do not go by the New World Translation.

So, a few things:

In John 1:1 and John 1:14, how is it that you do not see that the Bible explicitly declares that Jesus is God?

And also, in Psalms 50:1 (kjv), we find that the LORD (Jehovah) is the mighty God.

Therefore, in Isaiah 9:6, if you go by the kjv rather than the NeWT, it tells us that Jesus (the son that was given) is Jehovah (the LORD).

If I were a JW, I would wonder at that. I would think on these things, and understand that the NeWT gives a message that is biased against the doctrine of Christ's Deity. Because Psalms 50:1 is not accurately translated in the NeWT.

I would understand that I am being cheated out of sound doctrine by a biased translation of the Bible.
I use any modern translation, and never have I used the NWT, and never will. I am not a JW, and I vehemently denounce any doctrine that deifies any other being besides God the Father, the one and only transcendent, omniscient and omnipotent being in the entire universe.

No where in the Bible are found the words or expressions: trinity, triune, three-in-one, two-in-one, god-man, god the son, god the holy spirit, incarnation, co-equal, hypostatic union, ....
None of the patriarchs or major figures in the OT, ever prayed to, or exalted, or express, God in a trinitarian manner.
Nowhere is the Holy Spirit given the same amount of attention, exaltation, significance and glory, as the Father and the son.
Not one conversion that took place in the NT, used a trinitarian formula to save the proselyte.
The utter redundancy that is elicited when one claims that there are three all powerful entities within the godhead, is incriminating in itself.
The utter nonsense that ensues when one tries to explain the Atonement in trinitarian terms, undermines its plausibility.
The utter insanity that proceeds from a trinitarian's mouth whenever they try to explain what either a trinity, or a god-man is.

And now you tell me that you found Scripture that substantiates the doctrine of the trinity? Maybe you are being a little frivolous and reckless in your eisegesis?
 
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dev553344

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I use any modern translation, and never have I used the NWT, and never will. I am not a JW, and I vehemently denounce any doctrine that deifies any other being besides God the Father, the one and only transcendent, omniscient and omnipotent being in the entire universe.

No where in the Bible are found the words or expressions: trinity, triune, three-in-one, two-in-one, god-man, god the son, god the holy spirit, incarnation, co-equal, hypostatic union, ....
None of the patriarchs or major figures in the OT, ever prayed to, or exalted, or express, God in a trinitarian manner.
Nowhere is the Holy Spirit given the same amount of attention, exaltation, significance and glory, as the Father and the son.
Not one conversion that took place in the NT, used a trinitarian formula to save the proselyte.
The utter redundancy that is elicited when one claims that there are three all powerful entities within the godhead, is incriminating in itself.
The utter nonsense that ensues when one tries to explain the Atonement in trinitarian terms, undermines its plausibility.
The utter insanity that proceeds from a trinitarian's mouth when trying to explain what a trinity is.

And now you tell me that you found Scripture that substantiates the doctrine of the trinity? Maybe you are being a little frivolous and reckless in your eisegesis?

The trinity is spoken of in the bible: Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

Also there is much that speaks of Jesus and the Father as one: John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Your interpretation of scripture sounds strange to me, what religion do you agree with, if I may ask?
 
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justbyfaith

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@DNB,

John 1:1 and John 1:14 is Trinity 101.

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do you have any kind of answer for how these verses speak clearly of the fact that Jesus was God in the beginning?

And if He was God in the beginning, then He is God throughout eternity according to the following:

Psa 90:2, Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
 

DNB

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The trinity is spoken of in the bible: Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
Also there is much that speaks of Jesus and the Father as one: John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Your interpretation of scripture sounds strange to me, what religion do you agree with, if I may ask?
And that's it, you found two implicit, at best, passages, and have completely ignored everything that I said earlier.
And these two passages, for starters, are meant to substantiate the most incomprehensible doctrine in all of Christendom?
No one denies the existence of the Father (God), Son (pre-eminent creation), Holy Spirit (gift from God to impower the elect). This, by no means, makes them all God.
You are unfamiliar with the principle of spiritual oneness in the Bible? Man and his wife shall become one, King David and Jonathan became one, Jesus told all his disciples to become one in the same manner the he and the Father are one.

DW, excuse me, but, you have to see how absolutely absurd you just sounded. You didn't even come with 100 miles in refuting a single thing that I said. Therefore, I will hold back from divulging anything further, until I see a bit more seriousness or competence from you. i don't mean to sound arrogant or harsh, but please appreciate why I'm taking this stance right now.
 
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DNB

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@DNB,

John 1:1 and John 1:14 is Trinity 101.

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do you have any kind of answer for how these verses speak clearly of the fact that Jesus was God in the beginning?

And if He was God in the beginning, then He is God throughout eternity according to the following:

Psa 90:2, Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
You didn't read anything that I stated before?
 

justbyfaith

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I will agree with you for a moment that there is no Trinity, in order that I might proclaim to you the Oneness of the Lord.

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, Mark 12:29). That Lord, clearly, is the Father (according to Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)), even the Spirit of truth.

And Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

If Jesus and the Father are separate Lords, then that is two Lords; and we have a contradiction in holy scripture (see Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6). For the scriptures declare in those verses that there is one Lord.

If Jesus and the Father are the same Lord, then Jesus is the Father.

And the name of the Son that was given shall indeed be called "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6); and the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall accomplish this (Isaiah 9:7).

Nevertheless, there is a distinction between the Father and the Son in that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15); while the Son is the same Spirit inhabiting a body of human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
 
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DNB

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I will agree with you for a moment that there is no Trinity, in order that I might proclaim to you the Oneness of the Lord.

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, Mark 12:29). That Lord, clearly, is the Father (according to Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)), even the Spirit of truth.

And Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

If Jesus and the Father are separate Lords, then that is two Lords; and we have a contradiction in holy scripture (see Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6). For the scriptures declare in those verses that there is one Lord.

If Jesus and the Father are the same Lord, then Jesus is the Father.

And the name of the Son that was given shall indeed be called "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6); and the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall accomplish this (Isaiah 9:7).

Nevertheless, there is a distinction between the Father and the Son in that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15); while the Son is the same Spirit inhabiting a body of human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
Jesus is the Father? Case closed, you're fit to be tied and committed!
 

DNB

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Not that I can see.
I precluded the need to address implicit and inferred passages (eisegesis), that are used to substantiate the most incomprehensible, implausible and absurd doctrine in all of Christendom.
Did that point elude you?
 

justbyfaith

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Jesus is the Father? Case closed, you're fit to be tied and committed!
It's not like it hasn't happened before...

However I would remind you of what Jesus said...

Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Jhn 15:20, Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Jhn 15:21, But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.


And Paul:

2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12, Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13, But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
 
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justbyfaith

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I precluded the need to address implicit and inferred passages (eisegesis), that are used to substantiate the most incomprehensible, implausible and absurd doctrine in all of Christendom.
Did that point elude you?
I would only point out to you what it says in 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.

What you have determined is foolishness, is the power of God unto salvation to those who are being saved.
 

Enoch111

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You have said that you are not a Jehovah's Witness and yet categorically deny the Deity of Christ.
There are several other heterodox and cultic groups as well as false religions which also deny the deity of Christ.

1. Mormons have a different Jesus than Christians.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses flatly deny the deity of Christ.
3. Christian Science -- the same
4. Armstrongism
5. Christadelphians
6. Oneness Pentecostals
7. Unification Church
8. Unity School of Christianity
9. Scientology -- Dianetics
10. Judaism
11. Islam
12. Bahaism
 
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DNB

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It's not like it hasn't happened before...

However I would remind you of what Jesus said...

Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Jhn 15:20, Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Jhn 15:21, But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.


And Paul:

2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12, Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13, But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
It's impossible for Jesus to be the same one that he was created by, sent by, prayed to, and exalted by.
Quit your flippin' nonsense!
 

DNB

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I would only point out to you what it says in 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.

What you have determined is foolishness, is the power of God unto salvation to those who are being saved.
non sequitor
 

justbyfaith

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6. Oneness Pentecostals

I don't think that Oneness Pentecostals actually deny Christ's Deity...

Are they not the ones who take Christ's Deity and push it to the extreme (like I do)?

It's impossible for Jesus to be the same one that he was created by, sent by, prayed to, and exalted by.
Quit your flippin' nonsense!

Read Luke 1:37.

nonsense...foolishness...

the claim of those who do not bellieve when they hear the preaching of the cross.

If they were being saved, they would not see it as nonsense.

non sequitor

We are not actually in debate mode here; so that debate terms can be used to describe what I am saying as though I were trying to win an argument here. What I am trying to win here is your soul, to Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:29 and 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 are two scripture passages that condemn the debate mentality.
 
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DNB

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I don't think that Oneness Pentecostals actually deny Christ's Deity...

Are they not the ones who take Christ's Deity and push it to the extreme (like I do)?

Read Luke 1:37.
nonsense...foolishness...
the claim of those who do not bellieve when they hear the preaching of the cross.

If they were being saved, they would not see it as nonsense.
We are not actually in debate mode here; so that debate terms can be used to describe what I am saying as though I were trying to win an argument here. What I am trying to win here is your soul, to Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:29 and 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 are two scripture passages that condemn the debate mentality.
Luke 1:37 is another non sequitur. Why do you hate being reasonable and sensible, and prefer to espouse utter ridiculous nonsense? Why does it not strike you as odd that you profess that Jesus was the same being that created him, and also raised him from the dead, amongst many other implausible inanities? Why do you prefer to make a mockery of the Word of God, do you hate wisdom and logic?
 

justbyfaith

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Definition of non sequitur

1: an inference (see INFERENCE sense 1) that does not follow from the premises (see PREMISE entry 1 sense 1)specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative (see AFFIRMATIVE entry 1 sense 3) proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent (see CONSEQUENT entry 1 sense 1)
2: a statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously saidWe were talking about the new restaurant when she threw in some non sequitur about her dog.

Luke 1:37 is definitely not a non-sequitur; and neither was 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.
 
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