To @DNB concerning the Deity of Christ...

APAK · Oct 12, 2020

@FollowHim

Can you show specific scripture and then elaborate on it to support your claim in what you just said in post #78, when you said:
"John is clearly saying the Word is Jesus, and the Word is God..."

and then, why does @DNB have to answer something he can not see in scripture, or believe in, per what you said in post #79,
"You have to honestly answer how Jesus is the Word and so Jesus is God, and so the trinity exists, ..."

I'm curious in your answer. You seem so confident I cannot wait to see your explanation and your great argument, because to date, I have not seen one at all, from anyone.

Thanks,

APAK

APAK · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
I like this logic. It is an example of the words are not saying what they are saying, which clearly is rubbish and idiotic. If a sentence is written down, it means what it means. To deny its meaning is only an excuse because accepting its meaning is impossible for the individual. This is because the words cannot be changed but the meaning behind the words can changed to fit a different theology.

The problem with thoughts is they follow a chain of reasoning. We agree with the conclusions only because we have followed the chain of logic to its end. If we manage to change course a bit, distract and divert around problems, you can get whole groups of people to agree one is right while being 100% wrong, because unless people spot and point out the failures, the majority just nod along.

One psychologist gave people a choice of two positions, and after they chose one gave them the opposite choice as their choice. Most agreed this was their choice and tried to justify it, because clearly as they had chosen it, it must be their choice, except it was not at all. This demonstrates each step in the chain of truth matters, and must not be skipped, but carefully worked through.

Praise the Lord His people hear His voice and follow, so in the Kingdom there are no real issues, but it takes time to see many talk but have amended their "truth" from the "truth" and so become enemies of the truth. As a people of God we have to gently show a better way. God bless you

You haven't the foggiest of what you are saying!....at least take the time to address my post directly and then explain yourself from there...
some people....I know you cannot because you do not do scripture, do you?

WalterandDebbie · Oct 12, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Hi @DNB,

You have said that you are not a Jehovah's Witness and yet categorically deny the Deity of Christ.

I assume that if you are not a JW then you do not go by the New World Translation.

So, a few things:

In John 1:1 and John 1:14, how is it that you do not see that the Bible explicitly declares that Jesus is God?

And also, in Psalms 50:1 (kjv), we find that the LORD (Jehovah) is the mighty God.

Therefore, in Isaiah 9:6, if you go by the kjv rather than the NeWT, it tells us that Jesus (the son that was given) is Jehovah (the LORD).

If I were a JW, I would wonder at that. I would think on these things, and understand that the NeWT gives a message that is biased against the doctrine of Christ's Deity. Because Psalms 50:1 is not accurately translated in the NeWT.

I would understand that I am being cheated out of sound doctrine by a biased translation of the Bible.

While reading the different posts on this subject, I can remember when Jesus said to his disciples: To take my yoke upon you and learn of me, I believe He was speaking of part of His deity then.

Because of He is the Word Of GOD, but He also said that His Father is a spirit, in which GOD was in Him reconciling the world to Himself.

The scriptures proves when they are rightly divided unto Him such as:

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/les...deity-of-jesus-christ-2-728.jpg?cb=1267328189

You all are having a very important discussion, even I'm learning to take His yoke upon myself of different views.

Love, Walter

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

DaChaser said:
No, one God, existing as 3 Persons, as all 3 of them are called God on the Bible!

Pure unadulterated nonsense! You'll spend all your life trying to glorify God with your premise, and continually fail.

FollowHim · Oct 12, 2020

APAK said:
@FollowHim

Can you show specific scripture and then elaborate on it to support your claim in what you just said in post #78, when you said:
"John is clearly saying the Word is Jesus, and the Word is God..."

and then, why does @DNB have to answer something he can not see in scripture, or believe in, per what you said in post #79,
"You have to honestly answer how Jesus is the Word and so Jesus is God, and so the trinity exists, ..."

I'm curious in your answer. You seem so confident I cannot wait to see your explanation and your great argument, because to date, I have not seen one at all, from anyone.

Thanks,

APAK

19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Colossians 1:19

57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 8:57-58

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
John 1:14

Was Jesus the Word? If Jesus was the Word and the Word is God, eternal, always with the Father, and therefore God, Jesus is God.
When Jesus says "I am" He is saying He is God.

Now I am not here to persuade you about Jesus, because it is Jesus and the Father who reveal themselves to His people.
I am just shinning a light on the spiritual reality of the words, which when I first came to Christ were just that, words in a book, but now I see are a statement of reality. The apostles realised if the Father grants someone the privilege of repentance, there is hope.

Those who cannot hear or are not willing to listen it means nothing to them.
God bless you

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
You equally are doing exactly what you are claiming I am doing.
John is clearly saying the Word is Jesus, and the Word is God.

If you cannot answer this hermeneutical point, you have lost the argument.
I am not defying the ontology of divinity but showing its depth and breadth.

Paul continually calls us as being Holy, pure, blameless, yet we were once sinners. This is cleansing through the blood of Christ, turning that which is impure into that which is cleansed and acceptable to God. Jesus astounded His disciples by calling them washed because of what they had heard, which is surprising. It astounds us that Jesus brought divinity into those who have faith, which is much broader and wide than just the temple and the priests.

Paul went to far as to call us Holy Temples of God.
But in your hermeneutics you dislike and reject such ideas, because only God is Holy, separate and we are mere mortals, like Jesus, created, separate. This is why the gospel is so powerful and where Jesus calls us to become so astounding, though for others so blasphemous.

So please if you believe the bible is Gods word, explain how Jesus can be the word and not God?
It is the failure of hermeneutics when the theory change the words, which declares the emotional bias of the believer not the truth of Gods word.

God bless you

Look up antanaclasis, and it will explain the context and literary device of John 1:1.

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
By your description the whole christian church is blaspheming. Do you think a christian forum which holds the core biblical beliefs of the faith will put up with those who declare they are enemies of God?

I see your beliefs are heartfelt, but scripture does not support them You have to honestly answer how Jesus is the Word and so Jesus is God, and so the trinity exists, or you are just insulting and desiring to cause offence and division out of frustration that others do not simply accept your forceful presence and we just submit to this superior knowledge not on display.

I have seen many use this approach but the Kingdom always has one answer, God bless you, may His love through the cross bring forgiveness for your sins and bring you into His Kingdom.

Address post # 2, then we can start getting serious about this.

FollowHim · Oct 12, 2020

APAK said:
You haven't the foggiest of what you are saying!....at least take the time to address my post directly and then explain yourself from there...
some people....I know you cannot because you do not do scripture, do you?

My friend, declaring my ignorance to me, does not make me ignorant, rather it declares the fact you are happy to make rash comments about others without knowing them. It makes me wonder what other things you are prepared to do to people without knowing it is appropriate or not.

Jesus teaches us love, to be gentle, to wait, to learn, to listen and to hope people are willing to listen and spend time with Him.
Abruptness is about fear and the need to get people out of the way rather than truly meet them.

A phrase from a film about this kind of subject is "I see you"
We are the sum of our interactions, the blessings we bring and the help and support we offer. It is little wonder some are so poor, all they have is dismissing people. putting them done and dominating, when the dust settles they are literally all alone. It is why Jesus wisely observed false teachers bring thorns and thistles, not grapes and figs, ie get too close and they will rip you apart. Jesus is the Lord of hearts, the Lord of caring and knowing what blesses and builds up.

God bless you

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

APAK said:
You haven't the foggiest of what you are saying!....at least take the time to address my post directly and then explain yourself from there...
some people....I know you cannot because you do not do scripture, do you?

..oh, you better believe. FH can digress and presume like you won't believe. He feels that such elementary principles of hermeneutics need to be explained. He makes one assertion, then spends 10 sentences explaining how easy it is to make the wrong assertion.
Utterly frustrating, and absolutely shocking such simplicity of thought, and lack of seriousness?

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
My friend, declaring my ignorance to me, does not make me ignorant, rather it declares the fact you are happy to make rash comments about others without knowing them. It makes me wonder what other things you are prepared to do to people without knowing it is appropriate or not.

Jesus teaches us love, to be gentle, to wait, to learn, to listen and to hope people are willing to listen and spend time with Him.
Abruptness is about fear and the need to get people out of the way rather than truly meet them.

A phrase from a film about this kind of subject is "I see you"
We are the sum of our interactions, the blessings we bring and the help and support we offer. It is little wonder some are so poor, all they have is dismissing people. putting them done and dominating, when the dust settles they are literally all alone. It is why Jesus wisely observed false teachers bring thorns and thistles, not grapes and figs, ie get too close and they will rip you apart. Jesus is the Lord of hearts, the Lord of caring and knowing what blesses and builds up.

God bless you

@APAK , ...like I said, have you ever seen anyone digress so much? 9/10ths of his post is on Christian etiquette - FH, you should be a Sunday School teacher for 12 year old and younger, not a serious exegete or theologian?

APAK · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Colossians 1:19

57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 8:57-58

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
John 1:14

Was Jesus the Word? If Jesus was the Word and the Word is God, eternal, always with the Father, and therefore God, Jesus is God.
When Jesus says "I am" He is saying He is God.

Now I am not here to persuade you about Jesus, because it is Jesus and the Father who reveal themselves to His people.
I am just shinning a light on the spiritual reality of the words, which when I first came to Christ were just that, words in a book, but now I see are a statement of reality. The apostles realised if the Father grants someone the privilege of repentance, there is hope.

Those who cannot hear or are not willing to listen it means nothing to them.
God bless you

Now explain each verse you have presented and link them up without 'FORCE.' I might consider continuing on with the discussion if you can do all this.

I do like these words you used in your reply and they are truly scriptural and pivotal: "...Jesus and the Father who reveal themselves to His people..."...indeed

APAK · Oct 12, 2020

DNB said:
@APAK , ...like I said, have you ever seen anyone digress so much? 9/10ths of his post is on Christian etiquette - FH, you should be a Sunday School teacher for 12 year old and younger, not a serious exegete or theologian?

This was meant for @FollowHim ....sorry @DNB....disregard the following....

For FH then.....
Noted, and thanks for your opinion as I also have mine.

Seriously though, if you want to do some serious calm scripture study on any of these verses/passages you have presented, please let me know. I'm in....

FollowHim · Oct 12, 2020

DNB said:
Look up antanaclasis, and it will explain the context and literary device of John 1:1.

You are right, the bible is very open ended and you can see how words can imply different meanings, depending on the emphasis you put on it.
What is clear to me, like night and day, is a pure heart will see God.

There is no trickery or difficult concepts here except for an unrepentant sinners heart.
And the trouble with interpretation, is our emotions blind us to interpretations that make us feel vulnerable and unstable, without a good foundation. But truth can never be discovered unless the foundation is put at risk, metaphorically, it is our perception of truth, not truth itself.

To get round morality, a lot of sinners have now come to believe there is no truth, only ones own loyalty to a group, which defines truth and position.
And this is true, to the degree we will only see the side that reinforces our beliefs and are not able to cope with other perspectives, because we need so fundamentally to stay in the group we belong to.

It is why I love Jesus, because that is where I started, rather than from God the Father. It was Jesus's words and insight that changed my life, and still does. I know He is the Lord, He is God, because He has made my life and brought me from death to life, at so many levels, in so many ways, it is not an opinion or intellectual assent it is who I am. God bless you

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
You are right, the bible is very open ended and you can see how words can imply different meanings, depending on the emphasis you put on it.

Wonderful acknowledgement! Doesn't mean necessarily that my ultimate conclusion is correct, but at least we are recognizing critical points.

FollowHim said:
It is why I love Jesus, because that is where I started, rather than from God the Father. It was Jesus's words and insight that changed my life, and still does.

Did you just differentiate between your alleged two Gods? You put one before the other, or gave more credit to one, as opposed to the other?
I have never seen such a doctrine, like the trinity, that turns rather astute men into incoherent and unintelligible fools. It is straight from the devil, from start to finish.

APAK · Oct 12, 2020

@DNB...I did get a little confused as I still had FH in my mind on that reply to FH for your post.....a Sunday school teacher is something I did for a bit and you are right I do feel like I'm doing some of it all over again here..

FollowHim · Oct 12, 2020

APAK said:
Now explain each verse you have presented and link them up without 'FORCE.' I might consider continuing on with the discussion if you can do all this.

I do like these words you used in your reply and they are truly scriptural and pivotal: "...Jesus and the Father who reveal themselves to His people..."...indeed

You raise an interesting point about Jesus and truth and His word.
It changes us, molds us, leads us, transforms us. You want me to replace Gods work in your heart.
I can just share how God speaks to me, and how my love for Him bring praise to my lips.
I used to think there was deeper meaning in an intellectual sense, through analysis and argument it would rise up.
But love and faith are not a battle of intellect but the heart and how we treat on another.

The cross declares to our hearts, God loves us, wow, what a King. It is so powerful and vibrant.
One brother criticised me for quoting a catachism of a church, as if I did not mean it, and was just repeating it.

But what he heard was his lack of faith and deadness to the meaning of the words.

When Moses asks God for His name, the Lord says "I am". This is so small yet unbelievably profound.
From eternity to eternity the ever present one, who never changes and is always there.

One can go on eternally seeing new depths and insights, and so it is with all things of the Lord.
There is not one view but many, many, many layers, each one showing a different light to whole.

When I meet people so determined to put people right, I realise they have yet to meet the King.
We can but reflect who He is, and dwell with Him, and He will draw people unto Himself.

God bless you

justbyfaith · Oct 12, 2020

DNB said:
I have never seen such a doctrine, like the trinity, that turns rather astute men into incoherent and unintelligible fools. It is straight from the devil, from start to finish.

No, it is straight from the Holy Spirit and the word.

I hope that you haven't crossed the line into BotHS.

FollowHim · Oct 12, 2020

DNB said:
@APAK , ...like I said, have you ever seen anyone digress so much? 9/10ths of his post is on Christian etiquette - FH, you should be a Sunday School teacher for 12 year old and younger, not a serious exegete or theologian?

This is the point of the Kingdom. We are the Lords people, it flows from us.
A hard heart dismisses and abuses without a seconds thought. And whatever is left is so tainted it has little value.

The apostles led by example, patience, gentleness, self control. I know this only speaks to the Lords people, but in the end that is all that matters, and those who He will call in the future. The rest are chaff blowing in the wind, turn your head and they are gone.

I have met too many people who proudly declare their loves and hates, and find the grave calls them home.
Their declaration was meant to hurt others, except they did not see to every aspect it just hurt them.

God bless you

APAK · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
You raise an interesting point about Jesus and truth and His word.
It changes us, molds us, leads us, transforms us. You want me to replace Gods work in your heart.
I can just share how God speaks to me, and how my love for Him bring praise to my lips.
I used to think there was deeper meaning in an intellectual sense, through analysis and argument it would rise up.
But love and faith are not a battle of intellect but the heart and how we treat on another.

The cross declares to our hearts, God loves us, wow, what a King. It is so powerful and vibrant.
One brother criticised me for quoting a catachism of a church, as if I did not mean it, and was just repeating it.

But what he heard was his lack of faith and deadness to the meaning of the words.

When Moses asks God for His name, the Lord says "I am". This is so small yet unbelievably profound.
From eternity to eternity the ever present one, who never changes and is always there.

One can go on eternally seeing new depths and insights, and so it is with all things of the Lord.
There is not one view but many, many, many layers, each one showing a different light to whole.

When I meet people so determined to put people right, I realise they have yet to meet the King.
We can but reflect who He is, and dwell with Him, and He will draw people unto Himself.

God bless you

You have warm and inviting words here. I do agree with them with one clear exception that has skewed a lot of folks' beliefs, when you said..."When Moses asks God for His name, the Lord says "I am".

This statement is totally incorrect as I discussed with Ron earlier in a couple of posts, and you replied to the earlier one. YHWH said much more, with a personal name that no one can every possess; not even his Son and our Saviour. Christ and any human can say it is me, or I am (he) with emphasis...and this is not exactly a personal name either...

ly....

DNB · Oct 12, 2020

FollowHim said:
This is the point of the Kingdom. We are the Lords people, it flows from us.
A hard heart dismisses and abuses without a seconds thought. And whatever is left is so tainted it has little value.

The apostles led by example, patience, gentleness, self control. I know this only speaks to the Lords people, but in the end that is all that matters, and those who He will call in the future. The rest are chaff blowing in the wind, turn your head and they are gone.

I have met too many people who proudly declare their loves and hates, and find the grave calls them home.
Their declaration was meant to hurt others, except they did not see to every aspect it just hurt them.

God bless you

Did you just digress again?

To @DNB concerning the Deity of Christ...

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