John Darby

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sorry, but this is both laughable and in error.
It is in error because your specific 'fault' with me was for 'using a single verse' to prove my point. You said nothing of context...which, I would imagine is always important and you in no way proved I had used my 'single verse' OUT of context. You then, rather ironically, used a single verse in order to prove me wrong, which I could also as easily say you 'used out of context'. You see the boo-boo there, right?

The gross error is yours, and what is greater error on your part is your failure to recognize your great error. The Biblical context is 'always' to be followed, and not men's ways with making up some new concept using Scripture out of its context of the Chapter where it appears.

In John 18:36 Jesus emphatically said His Kingdom is NOT of this world. Yet you STILL fail to address that Scripture in relation to the one you quoted me with 'attempting' to prove His Kingdom is already here on earth (Matthew 12:28 I think it was you quoted).

So now, you have resorted to an even more dastardly trait of trying to make up some ignorant idea against me which is nothing more than your bearing false witness (for folks who don't know what bearing a 'false witness' means, it means to tell a lie).


And laughable because whether context is correct or not (that is a whole other conversation which I would gladly take up), doctrines ARE made by verses and passages which speak on the SAME thing, and then bought together to form a whole, more complete picture. That, my friend, is fact, no matter how you may disagree with me.

What you just said is what is truly laughable, simply because Jesus in John 18:36 made it clear His Kingdom is NOT of this present world. And men's philosophy and traditions they make up cannot change that! That's the difference, showing God's Word as written is what is the Truth, and men's doctrines that try to change its context fall by the wayside.


Okay, now we're getting to the meat of the 'context' issue, which is good. Here are the two passages in question:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:27–29

Let's agree on something fundamental straight up, okay? Scripture does not contradict scripture. All scripture harmonizes and if our understanding of it seems to be a contradiction, then it is our understanding that must be adjusted.
So, when we come to passages like the two above, where you claim there is a 'contradiction'...Jesus claiming the kingdom is 'not of this world'...but then also say that the kingdom has 'come upon you'...I submit that there is no contradiction.

Whoah! I NEVER said those two verses contradict each other. I said your theory CONTRADICTS those verses! Huge difference! The matter is that YOU don't understand HOW they do NOT contradict each other!

I tried to explain to you why there is no contradiction between those verses, but you didn't listen. You obviously cannot handle being corrected and love following your doctrines of men more!



The kingdom primarily manifests in the presence of Jesus Christ, both bodily...as he was then, but also spiritually, as he remains in the lives, through the Spirit, in those who follow him. Thus we can look at the above passages and say that the kingdom was most certainly not an 'earthly' kingdom "of this world", but most certainly did it 'come upon them' when Jesus used his powers to proclaim freedom from sin in his name.

There are TWO Christ's 'kingdom' concepts written of in God's Word. I tried to explain this to you, but you did not listen. I don't mean this according to Pre-tribulationalists either:
1. The spiritual Kingdom
2. The literal earthly Kingdom

The 'spiritual' kingdom is what Lord Jesus was declaring to the blind Pharisees in Matthew 12-25-28. When Lord Jesus came in the flesh through woman's womb to die on the cross, that is when He established His 'spiritual' kingdom through His Church. And just so you know, that is established through all His saints, those of us here on earth, and also those of His in the heavenly today, for as Peter taught, Jesus went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel, and as written led the prisoners out of the darkness of the prison house (Isaiah 42:7). For this cause The Gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6).

However, the physical, literal kingdom, when He will actually SIT upon David's throne, an earthly throne, is not yet today. That will begin with His return as written in Matthew 25.


Men's false doctrines of Full Preterism tries to push the non-existence of that future literal kingdom to come here on earth with Christ's return, and instead preach only a 'spiritual' kingdom concept for today, and only God knows what they preach after this world, because they do not accept a literal physical kingdom. They even preach falsely that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in the Apostle's days, simply saying it was a 'spiritual' event! Thus they REJECT Christ's future literal bodily return back to this earth as written. By their false ideas, they place themselves in danger of His rejecting them when He appears coming in the clouds.

This is WHY they reject the John 18:36 Scripture, which you also have done. Do you really... want to associate with such antichrists?
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
‘So the resurrection is already past in your opinion?’ That is not what I’m saying, or meaning to come off as saying. only 1 John 2:8-9 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. [9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

‘which thing is true in him and in you: because darkness is past.’ ‘he that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.’ 1 John 2:11...because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

These threads move so fast, it is difficult to understand what anyone is saying without reading through pages to get ones perspective. Maybe you have already given it, if so can you again?

Long time has past with our discussion, I no longer know what it was originally about. My main discussion in this thread has been with Naomi25.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“But that still has nothing to do with proof that His Kingdom is already literally manifested here on earth today per the prophetic Word of God”

wadr is it for seeking after a literal kingdom? Which looks like the world, talks like the world complete with literal thrones and rods to rule others with. Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The potter has power over the clay. Assuming their will be clay in this future 1000years reign after the brightness of His coming?

I'm sorry, but you do not understand the difference between Christ's spiritual kingdom manifested through His Church today verses His coming physical kingdom here on earth when He returns. And that future kingdom continues all the way into God's Eternity also! The ONLY way you could MISS knowing about that future physical kingdom to come here on earth when He returns is by throwing away a LOT of The Bible! If you go to Church regularly, they 'should' be showing you this from God's Word. If they purposefully skirt around preaching about that future kingdom to come on earth as written in God's Word, then you should... be asking them why.

Isa 65:21-25
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD.
KJV


This present world is not even close... to what Christ's future kingdom is going to be like. This earth along with us is going to be changed, released from the state of vanity it has been placed in for this present world time (Romans 8). Your Church ought to be revealing these things written in God's Word to you, instead of trying to get you to place blind faith in this present world being Christ's kingdom.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Long time has past with our discussion, I no longer know what it was originally about. My main discussion in this thread has been with Naomi25.

I was not referring to the discussion you and I have had in the thread; I’m not sure there has been any between us. If there was, agree I’ve also forgotten it. What I meant was: to understand what your perspective is on those two verses pertaining to resurrection...I would have to go back through the thread and read every post of yours on the topic and see if I could figure out your perspective. Also agree neither of us at this point will benefit from continuing with each other in a conversation.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Isa 65:21-25
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD.
KJV
As I said, doubtfully either of us will benefit from a discussion. But in the above...any one can quote it but that doesn’t tell me what it means or what it says to you. Like who is The wolf and Who is the Lamb that will feed together?

This present world is not even close... to what Christ's future kingdom is going to be like.

get the difference (I think) between this world passing away and that world(age) to come, and the order of this world passing away and the order of that World (or age) to come. Not saying or implying darkness is Light only Proverbs 4:18-19 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. [19] The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

Someone was saying yesterday about how everything happened back when He walked and all is finished and over ...this frustrates me because He still raises the dead and still gives Light. So I am not saying His raising the dead or giving Light is passed. But the opposite.

not that you will understand but (To me) there is a great hope and Love seen in Exodus 39:37 The pure candlestick, with the lamps thereof, even with the lamps to be set in order, and all the vessels thereof, and the oil for light,

And the oil for light ...they were suppose to keep the lamps burning continuously...again an opinion but all the Lamps burning continuously. That is not what is seen in Matthew 25:1-12 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. [2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. [3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. [5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. [6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. [7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. [8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. [9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so ; lest there be not enough for us and you:...

They all slept ...Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Very bold (imo) is the ‘wake up’ and Christ will indeed give you Light. Not a ‘Nay, there won’t be enough for me’. Again they all slept and they all awake and five says they won’t give Light or oil for the lamps to burn continuously ‘for there will not be enough for us’ . Maybe that doesn’t matter to you and you will say ‘so’? But Christ’s cry is ‘wake up’ and don’t ask the wise in their ‘there will not be enough for us’ ...for light instead ‘wake up out of sleep’ and Christ will give you Light.

Again verses which say to give to those who ask. Doubtfully Christ denies those who ask for Light, nor says ‘no, there won’t be enough for me.’ Again seen (imo) in the Lords table in many being weak instead of made strong(strengthen in His body), many sleep rather than awake out of sleep because instead of tarrying one for another, and discerning the Lords body until He comes (you come together for the worse) every one takes his own meal before another; one going away hungry and another drunken as in the night (In darkness and stumbling).

As usual that may seem totally unimportant but it is important and renewing to me that the Lord says ‘wake up from sleep’ ‘rise from the dead’ and Christ will give you Light. His Light everlasting: meaning ‘burns continuously’. Tried to show you and when they rise ...they are of a New order for the old order of things is passing away. As different in order as the ministration of condemnation and the ministration of the Spirit. In no way attempting to overthrow the Faith of some saying the Light is already passed by, but instead pointing to all the verses of ‘walk in the Light’ with Christ will give you Light, an Light which burns continuously and brighter until that perfect day.

Your Church ought to be revealing these things written in God's Word to you, instead of trying to get you to place blind faith in this present world being Christ's kingdom.

I don’t go to church. If I’m in error than the error is my own. Have no faith in this present world or the order of it for it passes away, have Faith in a New Order which He seems to be saying begins Today (a New creature)and to walk in it (newness of Life) and be found walking in it(Light).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As I said, doubtfully either of us will benefit from a discussion. But in the above...any one can quote it but that doesn’t tell me what it means or what it says to you. Like who is The wolf and Who is the Lamb that will feed together?

I'm sorry, but must there be some spiritualization attached to that Isaiah 65 Scripture for you to understand it?

Isaiah 65 is meant 'literally'. In that future time, there won't be anymore wild nature on earth. Animals are not going to attack each other. What you see in today's creation is not... how that future new heavens and new earth will be like. This is meant literally, no spiritualization, no philosophizing as if it's about something else, just because we don't yet see it in today's earth age.

Isa 11:6-9
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
KJV


Like Revelation 21 reveals, the former things will have passed away and be no more.

So if you are trying to imagine what God's Eternity of the future is going to be like, comparing its future glory to today is like comparing diamonds to dung.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@VictoryinJesus I've loved that verse for years...

me too. ‘as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ makes me think of: 1 Corinthians 3:4-7 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? [5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Life abundant and God gives the increase imo sound like the ‘more and more’ in ‘as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: farouk

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sorry, but must there be some spiritualization attached to that Isaiah 65 Scripture for you to understand it?

Isaiah 65 is meant 'literally'. In that future time, there won't be anymore wild nature on earth. Animals are not going to attack each other. What you see in today's creation is not... how that future new heavens and new earth will be like. This is meant literally, no spiritualization, no philosophizing as if it's about something else, just because we don't yet see it in today's earth age.

what do you think? 1 Timothy 5:17-18 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


Isa 11:6-9
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

who is the wolf and who is the Lamb? Surely you have spoken of wolves? Are they literal wolves when you speak of them? ‘The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,’

‘the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.’ What ‘weaned child’,? (Literal?) Hebrews 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

cockatrice' den ...how will you make this literal? Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
what do you think? 1 Timothy 5:17-18 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


who is the wolf and who is the Lamb? Surely you have spoken of wolves? Are they literal wolves when you speak of them? ‘The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,’

It's like Isaiah 65 reveals, that future world is not going to be like this present one. To compare this world with the glory of the world to come is like comparing diamonds to dung. That... is the understanding we are to gain from that Isaiah 65 chapter. Even in Romans 8, Apostle Paul gave this comparison when he said the creation seeks a release from the bondage of vanity God has placed it in.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's like Isaiah 65 reveals, that future world is not going to be like this present one. To compare this world with the glory of the world to come is like comparing diamonds to dung. That... is the understanding we are to gain from that Isaiah 65 chapter. Even in Romans 8, Apostle Paul gave this comparison when he said the creation seeks a release from the bondage of vanity God has placed it in.

Totally avoided how you make the passage literal, as you did with the wolf and the lamb. carrying the same throughout to ‘the weaned child’ and ‘the serpent's root’ out of which shall come forth ‘a cockatrice’? Are you saying it is all literal speaking of animals and a literal vipers root? wadr this leads to people handling literal snakes boasting they won’t be bitten, and if they are bitten the poison won’t hurt them. And they won’t die.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Totally avoided how you make the passage literal, as you did with the wolf and the lamb. carrying the same throughout to ‘the weaned child’ and ‘the serpent's root’ out of which shall come forth ‘a cockatrice’? Are you saying it is all literal speaking of animals and a literal vipers root? wadr this leads to people handling literal snakes boasting they won’t be bitten, and if they are bitten the poison won’t hurt them. And they won’t die.

I'm sure if you want... to be a snake handler in that future world, our Heavenly Father and His Son can probably make it happen for you in that world to come!

The point still is, those Scriptures, like Isaiah 11 also, are to show there's a difference between the creation today, and that future time of the new heavens and a new earth. Whether you believe literally that the cow and bear will eat straw together like it says is something you should pray about, because that will be literal. There are many things written in God's Word that we have a hard time comparing with the things of this present world, and those are just some examples. Trying to change it as written just so it better fits an understanding for today's world is NOT the way of getting understanding in God's Word about that future world. We have to believe what is written unless there are indicators towards a metaphor only. And there's no indication there that that's just a metaphor. Revelation 21 tells us there will be no more sea, so how do you grasp that with comparing it to today's world? It will be a literal reality though. It's not just a symbol because it doesn't fit this present world's existence of seas.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sure if you want... to be a snake handler in that future world, our Heavenly Father and His Son can probably make it happen for you in that world to come!

sarcasm serves who?

Revelation 21 tells us there will be no more sea, so how do you grasp that with comparing it to today's world? It will be a literal reality though. It's not just a symbol because it doesn't fit this present world's existence of seas.

Luke 21:25-26 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

No more roaring sea, no more being tossed about as a wave of the sea, driven by every wind of doctrine, no more raging, no noise, no foaming shame, no more unrest or tempest...no more sea.
Isaiah 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The gross error is yours, and what is greater error on your part is your failure to recognize your great error. The Biblical context is 'always' to be followed, and not men's ways with making up some new concept using Scripture out of its context of the Chapter where it appears.
Hello? Did I not just say that biblical context was "always important"...and therefore implied?


In John 18:36 Jesus emphatically said His Kingdom is NOT of this world. Yet you STILL fail to address that Scripture in relation to the one you quoted me with 'attempting' to prove His Kingdom is already here on earth (Matthew 12:28 I think it was you quoted).
No...no...of course you are QUITE right. His kingdom is both NOT OF this world and ALREADY HERE, among us....in quite a literal way. :rolleyes:

I posit that you fail to address these two verses adequately...because in your view, they do contradict. As I previously mentioned, however, scripture does not contradict scripture.
And context does indeed help us out here, as I said beforehand. In both passages Jesus is correcting assumptions made about the nature of the kingdom and they type of king he is. In Matt 12:28 he is correcting the Pharisees about their assumption that he casts out demons by Satan...and that if he indeed casts them out by the power of God, then that means the long awaited kingdom and Messiah has arrived. And in John 18:36 Jesus tells Pilot that the sort of king he is does not require a physical kingdom...and therefore a physical response for his arrest. His kingdom is of a different sort...a spiritual sort...and that can never be arrested, killed or taken away.
The context stands.

So now, you have resorted to an even more dastardly trait of trying to make up some ignorant idea against me which is nothing more than your bearing false witness (for folks who don't know what bearing a 'false witness' means, it means to tell a lie).
Have I lied? What is it you mean, exactly, when you repeatedly use the phrase "doctrines of men" when you level it against people and their ideas/beliefs?
Do you not mean that their biblical understanding...their 'doctrines'...which are meant to be understandings/beliefs built solely and primarily from scripture alone...are instead built from nothing more than wishful imaginings of a human mind? Which soundly puts them into unbeliever/deceiver territory and you into the place of 'the only one correct in this conversation'.
Instead of coming humbly to a conversation with the grace to think the other is perhaps mistaken or overly gullible, there seems to be the assumption with 'doctrines of men', that the other is a willing participant of a deceit perpetrated on the many.
Ultimately, by using this phrase, you are announcing to your conversational partner that you already reject and revile everything they think, and that you believe your ideas/understanding are superior in every way.
Perhaps (I hope) you don't see it that way, but I have to tell you...that is the logical outworking of such a phrase.
Do men fall into incorrect doctrine? Sure, often. But by labeling every person you disagree with as holding 'doctrines of men' and every idea you disagree with 'doctrines of men', you divorce any chance of meaningful dialogue with your partner. Because you've essentially accused them of being so fooled they're holding to heresy, or so wicked they're deliberately perpetrating it.
Leave some room in the conversation for people to just be wrong.
Even if I'm not. :p

What you just said is what is truly laughable, simply because Jesus in John 18:36 made it clear His Kingdom is NOT of this present world. And men's philosophy and traditions they make up cannot change that! That's the difference, showing God's Word as written is what is the Truth, and men's doctrines that try to change its context fall by the wayside.
Can we petition someone on this site for a 'face-palm' emoji? Cause I need one right now.
"Man's traditions"...so wicked, I know. The problem with that is...even you have doctrines. I don't know you, so I can use specifics, but I'll use some generals. You'll have gathered together some ideas from scripture that form your beliefs on who God is, who Jesus it, who the Holy Spirit it. You'll have formed some ideas from scripture on when Jesus will return, and how it was he saved you. All of those things...are doctrines. And it doesn't make them dirty, it just helps us catelogue them so we can talk about them more easily. For example, we can say, let's discuss the doctrine of Christ's return, rather than say, 'lets discuss Matt 24, 1 Thess4, 2 Thess 2, 1 Cor 15, Rev 20, Matt 25'.....you see my point. Doctrines help us put similar topics in the bible under an umbrella so we can understand them better.
Which is something you absolutely do as well.
So, whether or not you agree or disagree with someone's 'doctrine' doesn't change HOW doctrines are made. Which was my point. And that point was....a gathering of verses or passages that talk about the same topic.
Not sure how that is 'laughable'. Seems like fairly blatant fact to me.

Whoah! I NEVER said those two verses contradict each other. I said your theory CONTRADICTS those verses! Huge difference! The matter is that YOU don't understand HOW they do NOT contradict each other!

I tried to explain to you why there is no contradiction between those verses, but you didn't listen. You obviously cannot handle being corrected and love following your doctrines of men more!
Well...we must have some serious break down in communication then, cause 1-I did NOT get that from you at all, and 2-my 'theory' most certainly does NOT lead to a contradiction. I thought I laid it all out fairly straight, bible verses and all, but perhaps not.

Let me ask you this: How can Jesus say that he will be with us until the end of the age, even though he is not with us physically?


There are TWO Christ's 'kingdom' concepts written of in God's Word. I tried to explain this to you, but you did not listen. I don't mean this according to Pre-tribulationalists either:
1. The spiritual Kingdom
2. The literal earthly Kingdom

The 'spiritual' kingdom is what Lord Jesus was declaring to the blind Pharisees in Matthew 12-25-28. When Lord Jesus came in the flesh through woman's womb to die on the cross, that is when He established His 'spiritual' kingdom through His Church. And just so you know, that is established through all His saints, those of us here on earth, and also those of His in the heavenly today, for as Peter taught, Jesus went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel, and as written led the prisoners out of the darkness of the prison house (Isaiah 42:7). For this cause The Gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6).

However, the physical, literal kingdom, when He will actually SIT upon David's throne, an earthly throne, is not yet today. That will begin with His return as written in Matthew 25.
I don't have a problem with this. What I do question is: why do you assume that the 'spiritual kingdom' does not play an essential role in the kingdom promises at all, and that therefore this time span within the kingdom must be divorced from both physical promises and kingdom promises. Which is what you seem to do by pushing all kingdom promises off into the future.
I also question why the physical kingdom cannot be found in eternity. If the spiritual kingdom is seen now in Christ's promises to us...his saving grace from sin, his gathering a peoples to himself through saving faith from all nations...then why assume that the physical outpouring of that is NOT eternity where these people fill the new creation and where God himself dwells among them? And spiritual and physical kingdom becomes one.

Men's false doctrines of Full Preterism tries to push the non-existence of that future literal kingdom to come here on earth with Christ's return, and instead preach only a 'spiritual' kingdom concept for today, and only God knows what they preach after this world, because they do not accept a literal physical kingdom. They even preach falsely that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in the Apostle's days, simply saying it was a 'spiritual' event! Thus they REJECT Christ's future literal bodily return back to this earth as written. By their false ideas, they place themselves in danger of His rejecting them when He appears coming in the clouds.
I agree that full Preterism is heresy.
This is WHY they reject the John 18:36 Scripture, which you also have done. Do you really... want to associate with such antichrists?

Now who is bearing false witness? When have I ever 'rejected' John 18:36? Please...I invite you to go back and show me.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Again, you are putting something into scripture that is simply not there.

Oh but it is there!

And you forget jesus said when He returns and sits on the throne of His glory- He ushers people into His kingdom-which is here on earth!

If you really want an 'in depth' answer apart from 'no', here it is:
Rev 21 is the beginning of 'eternity'...the end portion of Rev 20 is...I would say it 'straddles' the period, however long or short it may be, that covers the final judgment, etc. Only God knows how long that will actually take. And, I can suppose you will agree with me that the beginning of Rev 20 is certainly not 'eternity'. Regardless of where you put the 1000 years, it is not eternity.

So you "correct me for having a kingdom, but yet you have a time that straddles time and eternity??

The end of verse 20 shows that teh universe is removed! So space, matter are gone and one cannot have time without space matter.

Pray tell, where does it state that the Kingdom is given to a future generation? Nowhere. We are told it has 'come upon us' (present reality), it's 'not of this world' (physical theocracy), that it 'cannot be observed' (spiritual reality), in our 'midst' (spiritually present now) and that it was taken away from an unbelieving people (unbelieving Jews) and given to a 'people' (Gentiles) producing 'fruit' (those who believe).
Absolutely nothing about the kingdom being put off until a future generation of Jews 'gets it right'. The most we can point to is Rom 11 where Paul implies that there will come a time when God will graft the majority of national Israel back to the Olive Tree....which is the body of faith. But that's them JOINING the existing kingdom, not a kingdom being birthed and handed to them.

In the mass of the OT verses I gave you ! god says" it shall come to pass" without any conditions. so if it doesn't come to pass, God lies! But yes I agree in your very carefully selected verses it does not mention the kingdom for Israel. It appears many places elsewhere however!

And this verse also does not declare that teh taking away is a permanent unrevokable thing either

Yes right now the gentiles are being called out of the nations to be a people for Jesus!

BUT:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Not just some Jews---but ALL ISrael will be saved after the fulness of the Gentiles come in ! That is the New Covenant God made with the Nation of Israel! Nowhere has that covenant to the whole nation been revoked!

also:

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

the "they" is the nation of Israel.

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Right now we are living in what many theologians and scholars call the "mystery form of the kingdom" which is spelled out by Paul in ephesians and Romans! Jew and Gentile become one body of Christ! The time for that body to be collected will come to an end ans shown by the many passages I gave you!

When Je
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, come on...do try and have a little conversational honesty.
You asked me in Post #693 "If this is eternity, are you admitting that Satan will be released to deceive the nations again afer your XXXX time frame?"

Well I am trying to follow your very twisted lines of reasoning!

I do not believe the abyssing of Satan occurs in eternity. Nor do I believe that teh releasing of satan occurs in eterntiy.

THE XXXX I posted is because you declare the 1,000 years is merely symbolic! You believe Satan is abyssed now and used faulty exegesis to try to defend it! By adding a passage from a verse further on that does not belong!

I believe Satan is abyssed after his defeat when Jesus fights Him from Petra back to Jerusalem and defeats him. Then there is a time frame for events to happen after Jesus return and before the start of His kingdom. His kingdom will last 1,000 years and after that 1000 years Satan is loosed and once again like He did right before the Lords return gathers forces to fight the saints and Jesus one last time!

YOU call this time frame we are living in that symbolic 1000 years by your declarations. So when the first resurrections ends after the symbolic 1000 years- what happens?

When do you think the "battle of armegeddon" takes place?

See I see the end of teh thousand years happening right before time ends and eternity begins when God comes down on the Great White Throne!
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sure if you want... to be a snake handler in that future world, our Heavenly Father and His Son can probably make it happen for you in that world to come!

The point still is, those Scriptures, like Isaiah 11 also, are to show there's a difference between the creation today, and that future time of the new heavens and a new earth. Whether you believe literally that the cow and bear will eat straw together like it says is something you should pray about, because that will be literal. There are many things written in God's Word that we have a hard time comparing with the things of this present world, and those are just some examples. Trying to change it as written just so it better fits an understanding for today's world is NOT the way of getting understanding in God's Word about that future world. We have to believe what is written unless there are indicators towards a metaphor only. And there's no indication there that that's just a metaphor. Revelation 21 tells us there will be no more sea, so how do you grasp that with comparing it to today's world? It will be a literal reality though. It's not just a symbol because it doesn't fit this present world's existence of seas.

Been considering this ‘overthrow the faith of some’ in saying the resurrection is already pass In 2 Timothy 2:18-19 and the ‘nevertheless’ and what promise follows that ‘nevertheless’: ‘the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.’

Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

‘But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it’ for ‘the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.’ Let everyone that nameth the name of the Lord come out from the dark. Let everyone that nameth the name of the Lord depart from unrighteous and Awake unto the Light, Awake unto God, rise from the dead, Awake unto righteousness. In the same verse speaking of the resurrection whether it is pass
2 Timothy 2:18-19is a call from darkness and death unto Light and Life. Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Totally avoided how you make the passage literal, as you did with the wolf and the lamb. carrying the same throughout to ‘the weaned child’ and ‘the serpent's root’ out of which shall come forth ‘a cockatrice’? Are you saying it is all literal speaking of animals and a literal vipers root? wadr this leads to people handling literal snakes boasting they won’t be bitten, and if they are bitten the poison won’t hurt them. And they won’t die.

Sorry, but putting your faith in this present world with Amillennialism just isn't part of God's Word. No manner of spiritualizing the things written in Isaiah 65, and many other Bible scriptures is going to make this present world Christ's kingdom.

The ones who want to think 'this present world' can be a kingdom are Satan's host. Satan wants to be GOD. He wants to be worshipped as GOD. And this present world is given him to rule over. That is why Jesus said His kingdom is NOT of this world.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
sarcasm serves who?

It serves those who see the idiocracy of trying to spiritualize everything written in God's Word. It's for them, since they MUST be in a sarcastic mood to not be able to believe The Bible as written.

Those who think we are presently in Christ's reign on this earth I equate with the greatest of sarcastics.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry, but putting your faith in this present world with Amillennialism just isn't part of God's Word. No manner of spiritualizing the things written in Isaiah 65, and many other Bible scriptures is going to make this present world Christ's kingdom.

The ones who want to think 'this present world' can be a kingdom are Satan's host. Satan wants to be GOD. He wants to be worshipped as GOD. And this present world is given him to rule over. That is why Jesus said His kingdom is NOT of this world.

Wadr your claim (seems to me unless I’ve misunderstood) is there is no: walk in a new order. For the old order passes away. 1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

What order is His Kingdom of? How can you say His order of things has not come when He says to walk in the Light of His kingdom, and to let His kingdom reign?

What is the old order of things that He says to come out from?