Are You In A Church Like The One Jesus Set Up?

fivesense · May 7, 2010

TallMan said:
- where all have received His Spirit, speaking in tongues?
(Acts 2, 10:44-48; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

Or some other sort of church?
(please say how it differs)

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Mt 16:18-20

If I was in that "church", ecclesia is the proper name, I would have to be Jewish and part of the Covenant, which I am not. I am a Gentile, a stranger to the covenant promises of the Patriarchs, an alien, apart from God.

Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby Eph 2:11-16

I am sorry, but being a member of the Body of Christ sure beats being part of the church on earth that Christ will come again to establish for a thousand years. Don't need it, don't want it, and can't have it anyway. It's out of my control.
fivesense

mjrhealth · May 9, 2010

Christ never built a church, but men have built lots of them , all in their won way all with there own aims. Jesus is building a church, it has no ceiling, no walls, has no creeds or rituals, has one head Jesus Christ, teacher, guide, priest, friend all these things, it is made up of like minded people whom belong to Him and will not sit under or belong to anyone else but Him, for He is Lord of all, and they are His.

In His LOve

fivesense · May 11, 2010

mjrhealth said:
Christ never built a church, but men have built lots of them , all in their won way all with there own aims. Jesus is building a church, it has no ceiling, no walls, has no creeds or rituals, has one head Jesus Christ, teacher, guide, priest, friend all these things, it is made up of like minded people whom belong to Him and will not sit under or belong to anyone else but Him, for He is Lord of all, and they are His.

In His LOve

This is the only "Pledge of Allegiance" I recognize mjr, I'm glad you penned it out for us.

It is interesting to note how many people in the Body still associate Church with the Body of Christ, not realizing the word "church" isn't even scriptural. It's a substitution for "ecclesia" which means "called-out-ones". Acts 19 has 3 ecclesias mentioned (disciples, silver-workers, and lawyers), and not once is the Body of Christ mentioned there. Even Young's translation, assembly, is better than "church", since that word has morphed into a proper noun quite beyond God's original intent.
fivesense

01CobraVortech · May 11, 2010

fivesense said:
This is the only "Pledge of Allegiance" I recognize mjr, I'm glad you penned it out for us.

It is interesting to note how many people in the Body still associate Church with the Body of Christ, not realizing the word "church" isn't even scriptural. It's a substitution for "ecclesia" which means "called-out-ones". Acts 19 has 3 ecclesias mentioned (disciples, silver-workers, and lawyers), and not once is the Body of Christ mentioned there. Even Young's translation, assembly, is better than "church", since that word has morphed into a proper noun quite beyond God's original intent.
fivesense

And what kind of people do we tend to have in churches today? Answer: Christians.
And what kind of people are Christians? Answer: The "called out ones."

Given the various meanings for many greek terms, I think its fair to say that the word Church is a rather good synonym or term that encompasses very well I might add, the phrase "the called out ones."

mjrhealth · May 11, 2010

And what did Jesus say, about the wheat and the tares, they all look the same, but when the end comes they will be seperated, And yes you will find them both in church, can you pick which one is which. Christians may be called out, but far too many are staying in...

In His Love

There is no religion in truth and there is very little truth in religion.

jiggyfly · May 11, 2010

The Robster said:
Given the various meanings for many greek terms, I think its fair to say that the word Church is a rather good synonym or term that encompasses very well I might add, the phrase "the called out ones."

Then it seems you misinterpret and misunderstand both ekklesia and kuriakos. Maybe a word study on the two will help you.

And what kind of people do we tend to have in churches today? Answer: Christians.
And what kind of people are Christians? Answer: The "called out ones."

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men],And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. John 2:23-25

TallMan · May 11, 2010

The Robster said:
And what kind of people do we tend to have in churches today?

wo!! Hold-on!
"churches" is an oxymoron!
A contradiction in terms.
Jesus is not schizophrenic or a serial adulterer.
He knows what he wants and he showed us!
People that disagree and foirm different churches cannot all be listening and obeying Jesus.

The Robster said:
Answer: Christians.

Well, that';s your answer, based on what?
How do you judge people to be "Christians"?

The bible teaches that you are not one until you actually receive Christ's Spirit (Romans 8:9), it the Spirit bares independant witness to that, as has already been detailed.

HammerStone · May 11, 2010

The apostles certainly had a litmus test - they were able to judge precisely when people received the Spirit of God (and this is what I would expect! - how can one receive the perfect being without something significant happening?!) - Acts 2:4, 33; 8:18, 10:44-46, 19:5-6.

Conversely they knew that sincere believers had not yet received - Acts 8:12-16, 19:4-5.

So, either this revelation, this knowledge, has been lost, and you can no longer make that judgement, or you have to introduce some new way.

Unfortunately men (and women) are prone to being unfaithful to what God sets out.
Consider the garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4-6), people didn't like it so cut and dried... surely there is another way???

Who exactly are you to judge what is "significant?" Why do you have to see a sign to know a believer? Did Paul - the same guy who wrote about tongues - not warn about the requirement of signs in I Corinthians 1:22? What about Christ in Mark 8:12? Are we looking for signs or are we looking for Christians?

Those who believe as you do have created a requirement for your interpretation of tongues. I'm merely pointing out here that I don't care how you interpret tongues but that regardless of interpretation one way or another, it's not a required item for any church or any Christian. I've already pointed out that it's a gift not everyone is given (I Corinthians 12:8-11) so why do you require it when the very Word of our Father does not? The problem is folks have made this that litmus test you speak about. Any attack on your precious tongues immediately becomes an attack on the Holy Spirit which is nothing but a flagrant red herring. More than you think can see through this.

Signs and gifts are wonderful things, but they do not qualify a believer. They certainly aren't required for one man to judge the Christianity of another or other group. Did Christ say you'll know them by their gifts and signs? Absolutely not. He said you'll know them by their fruits of which signs are just a part.

Do not limit the Spirit.

Romans 8:16 KJV
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Now, do you, does anyone actually believe that only "one" or even only some people get wisdom, knowledge and faith when they become Christians?

No, but unlike you I don't believe "to one it's given" translates to "all will have every gift" so we will have to agree to disagree.

Please just stop and think a second. Is this the conversation we should be having:

"I am a Christian."

"I'm going to need to see some ID first, please perform a sign..."

write2witness · May 11, 2010

Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...." (Acts 16:31) He didn't say, "Be baptized, go to church, speak in tongues, and then believe in the Lord." He simply said to "believe." Again, Jesus is simple: it's people that over complicate things.

TallMan · May 11, 2010

write2witness said:
Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...." (Acts 16:31) He didn't say, "Be baptized, go to church, speak in tongues, and then believe in the Lord." He simply said to "believe." Again, Jesus is simple: it's people that over complicate things.

Selecting a phrase of scripture without fitting it with the others is not the way the Holy Spirit teaches:
1Cor. 2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Note how The Lord's opponents selected what they wanted to hear and put their slant on it:

Mark 14:58: We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Acts 6:14: For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

So, let's look at the immediate context. The next verse states:
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
(Then they baptised them)

So, it was deemed neccessary to speak the word of The Lord to them - to explain what it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus".
Jesus himself explained that "believers" would be baptised, receive the infilling of the Spirit so they never thirst again and have signs following (Mark 16:15-20, John 7:37-39 etc).

This fits the wider context of what the apostles preached earlier in Acts, you think that because the same detail is not repeated you can go ahead and treat it as optional?
- think again!

But this doesn't fit with what many people teach as "believe on Jesus", so these things are left out.
Jesus warns that many who call Him Lord will be told "I never knew you".
It is obvious how this saying will be / is being fulfilled!

HammerStone · May 11, 2010

So, it was deemed neccessary to speak the word of The Lord to them - to explain what it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus".
Jesus himself explained that "believers" would be baptised, receive the infilling of the Spirit so they never thirst again and have signs following (Mark 16:15-20, John 7:37-39 etc).

So then you will agree that you are saying you must speak in tongues if you've received the Holy Spirit, correct?

TallMan · May 11, 2010

HammerStone said:
So then you will agree that you are saying you must speak in tongues if you've received the Holy Spirit, correct?

I prefer to stick to the way Jesus and the bible puts it:

"Believers will speak in new tongues" (it's a promise), all "spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave tehm utterance" when they received him (i.e. it is not a something a person does, no man can! it is a pure work of God), there is "one faith", "one gospel" - the perfect message - all receive all! - no doubt or confusion!

Do you wish to undermine, cast doubt on and confuse this message that Jesus has given?

Brother Mike · May 11, 2010

So then you will agree that you are saying you must speak in tongues if you've received the Holy Spirit, correct?

NO Hammerstone!!!!!! If folks would just listen to Brother Mike Who has spoken in Tongues for several years......... :huh:

That is not the case at all Hammerstone. That is just wrong Pentecostal teaching. What is true is that anyone filled with the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues. There is a difference between the Church setting of Tongues where things should be done decent and in order, then there is the use of Tongues for prayer on our own.

Though I speak in Tongues, I have never been used by God to speak during a Church setting as those known to be used by God should interpret. This is not normal for most Church services, it's all directed by the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes I pray in tongues the language changes to something else or different language, lots of times right after I hear God directly though interpreting what I have spoken. If you have been doing this Awhile they you learn you pick up that whole new language and just speak it, but normally my tongues sound like it always does.

Tongues is also like anything else in God's Word. Everything is obtained by Grace of what is done for us though what we believe (Faith) If we are not taught we are suppose to be healed, prosperous, not sleep around with just anyone, then we won't know about those things, and if we are not taught that tongues belong to us, then how would we know? Even though we are filled with the Holy Spirit.

A lot of this Tongues thing is teaching those Filled with the Holy Spirit that it is available to them, that way they know, and can receive it just like anything else we believe we receive from God.

Jesus Is Lord.

01CobraVortech · May 11, 2010

TallMan said:
wo!! Hold-on!
"churches" is an oxymoron!
A contradiction in terms.
Jesus is not schizophrenic or a serial adulterer.
He knows what he wants and he showed us!
People that disagree and foirm different churches cannot all be listening and obeying Jesus.

Well, that';s your answer, based on what?
How do you judge people to be "Christians"?

The bible teaches that you are not one until you actually receive Christ's Spirit (Romans 8:9), it the Spirit bares independant witness to that, as has already been detailed.

When it comes to determining whether someone is a Christian, I base that analysis on whether they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior for the atonement of their sins and as the doorway for their salvation.

HammerStone · May 11, 2010

Brother Mike, it's a rhetorical question...

Selecting a phrase of scripture without fitting it with the others is not the way the Holy Spirit teaches:

"Believers will speak in new tongues" (it's a promise), all "spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave tehm utterance" when they received him (i.e. it is not a something a person does, no man can! it is a pure work of God), there is "one faith", "one gospel" - the perfect message - all receive all! - no doubt or confusion!

Maybe you should take your own advice? Or does it only count when you cut and paste it, just not anyone else? I'd like to know how an entire verse is in less context than various phrases of others as well.

You give me this personal amalgamation of Bible verses and try to pass it off as the Word of God?

Folks, do your homework on these requirements of men:

Mark 16:16-17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

I guess we all better bone up on these requirements, heaven forbid we all can't do them all on command, as required for "real" churches! :rolleyes

Or, we could stick to what the Lord said and realize that men seeking signs to validate faith generally do so for their own edification. The spirit identifies itself and it doesn't have to be physical. Thank God.

Brother Mike · May 12, 2010

And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands;

Picking up snakes is Dumb.....................Still, others preach with them based on just this one verse, and some don't make it though the sermon.

Brother Mike, it's a rhetorical question...

OH

Got it!!!!

Or, we could stick to what the Lord said and realize that men seeking signs to validate faith generally do so for their own edification. The spirit identifies itself and it doesn't have to be physical. Thank God.

ummmm............ The gifts of the Holy Spirit was to profit men, not validate faith. Jesus said this evil generation seek a sign. They were not confused on Jesus Healing or Miracles, it was Proof that Jesus was the Messiah.

Jesus Is Lord

HammerStone · May 12, 2010

ummmm............ The gifts of the Holy Spirit was to profit men, not validate faith. Jesus said this evil generation seek a sign. They were not confused on Jesus Healing or Miracles, it was Proof that Jesus was the Messiah.

Right, I feel like I'm arguing circles here but jump back earlier in the discussion Brother Mike, I don't think you're quite understanding my argument. The OP made speaking in tongues the way he judges a "true" church; my attempt is to get him to simply espouse his beliefs and make the statement that yes, he judges other Christians by their ability to speak in tongues. With what I've assembled thus far, I think it pretty clear speaking tongues is a requirement for this guy.

It's comments like these I'm attempting to address:

Scripture is sayoing that people will immediately speak in tongues when they receivce God's Spirit (become a Christian).

I'm doing this to point out that there are no such requirements in the Bible and that this modern tongue movement is just another middle age Catholic Church or Calvinist version where men decide how Christian you are based on what they see.

butxifxnot · May 15, 2010

TallMan said:
- where all have received His Spirit, speaking in tongues?
(Acts 2, 10:44-48; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

Or some other sort of church?
(please say how it differs)

Of all the instances of tongues in the Bible, only one of them (Acts 2) actually describes what is going on: the people are speaking in languages that exist on earth. Do you remember the verse? The observers marvelled that they heard each of the Christians in his own language.

The gift of tongues is the gift to communicate across the barrier of language that existed in the first century.
By all Biblical indications, there is no basis for Christians babbling.

By my understanding. I am, of course, open to correction. Please show me a Biblical example of Christians babbling.

Brother Mike · May 16, 2010

butxifxnot

The gift of tongues is the gift to communicate across the barrier of language that existed in the first century.
By all Biblical indications, there is no basis for Christians babbling.

By my understanding. I am, of course, open to correction. Please show me a Biblical example of Christians babbling.

While the Original OP has sort of moved off Topic as Hammerstone mentioned, and now it's a discussion about tongues. The information given was to show that Believers today have access to this great and wonderful gift of the Spirit. If you do not speak in Tongues it IS NOT evidence that your not saved, or even filled with the Spirit of God. I have run into those that are saved and not filled with God's Spirit, and those Filled with God's Spirit by never spoke in tongues.

Jesus said if you believe on me, you shall speak with new tongues. This is not babbling but a language. There are times the Holy Spirit will speak to someone though you in their language though you don't understand the Language yourself.

I have been speaking in Tongues for many years now, and teach on it. I think that it's important to at least take heed to those that do understand the working of this gift, and consider if this is something that will empower your life.

Jesus Is Lord

fivesense · May 16, 2010

Brother Mike said:
butxifxnot

While the Original OP has sort of moved off Topic as Hammerstone mentioned, and now it's a discussion about tongues. The information given was to show that Believers today have access to this great and wonderful gift of the Spirit. If you do not speak in Tongues it IS NOT evidence that your not saved, or even filled with the Spirit of God. I have run into those that are saved and not filled with God's Spirit, and those Filled with God's Spirit by never spoke in tongues.

Jesus said if you believe on me, you shall speak with new tongues. This is not babbling but a language. There are times the Holy Spirit will speak to someone though you in their language though you don't understand the Language yourself.

I have been speaking in Tongues for many years now, and teach on it. I think that it's important to at least take heed to those that do understand the working of this gift, and consider if this is something that will empower your life.

Jesus Is Lord

When the Lord returns to Olivet, and the assignment of the Twelve apostles becomes activated again, then the need to address the nations under the reign of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah will require the ability to "know" the different languages that are then on the earth. It will require a supernatural gifting to go into all the world and preach the Kingdom and the King to foreigners. It would not be possible otherwise.

The gifting of languages(tongues,KJV) was given to the Twelve and those under them, Jews and proselytes, who retained the Law and the Prophets in Christ:
Ac 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

It is a mistake to believe that the Jewish Christians departed from the Law. The Lord never told the disciples that they could. He spoke otherwise to them, and even increased the terms of the Covenant Laws during His Sermon on the Mount.

The ministry of Paul contained both Jew and Gentile alike. Both were to enjoy the benefits of the Cross of Christ, the conciliation of the whole world by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. But a remnant of Jewish faithful remained in Jerusalem, ministering to the Jews only, not to the nations. Only Paul was given that commission by the Lord, the Jews having failed to believe and trust in Messiah as a nation.
but, on the contrary, having seen that I(Paul) have been entrusted with the good news(gospel) of the uncircumcision, as Peter
with that of the circumcision,for He who did work with Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, did work also in me in
regard to the nations, Ga 2:7-8

With God's plan of election, grace and faith to the nations being brought into effect through Paul's propetic writings, the Jewish Covenant was put off, til the times of the Gentiles is completed:
Ro 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret-that ye may not be wise in your own conceits-that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

The supernatural Holy Spirit giftings were changed to fit the circumstances. No longer would it be "by seeing" that God's salvation would come to be in the earth through an apostate tribe, but by faith in the Cross. It is a stumblingblock to the Jews and foolishness to the world.

There is not a linguist alive today that has recognized any manifestation of "tongues" when heard. It is bogus and artificial. While there was a time when I too believed I had this gift, the evidence of Scripture and the testimony of honest men along with God's grace, has allowed me to divest myself of the notion, and journey forward in faith towards a true recognition of the Father of All, and His Son Jesus Christ.
fivesense

Are You In A Church Like The One Jesus Set Up?

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Similar threads