Hell Fire

kcnalp said:

So you believe God will burn someone in Hell forever and ever. He sure will!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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In order to correctly understand this issue, you must first comprehend the idea of mortality. To prove that for ever... Everlasting... And eternal etc actually mean what you think they mean, you first have to prove that man is immortal. The man, despite being in flames as you think, has to be alive right in order to be tormented? So he lives "forever"? Yet God turfed Adam and Eve out of the garden so that they couldn't eat of the tree of life and become immortal sinners. Thus there is no such thing as an immortal sinner. Yet in order to live forever we need to be given life as a gift. Does the sinner get the same gift then? Sorry, there are way too many holes you can't explain.

kcnalp said:

Actually it's perfectly clear.
Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

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So you think that literal?

Matthew 8:28-29
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mark 1:23-24
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Seem torment and destroy may have somewhat the same outcome.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Even just knowing you are going to die can be torment forever until you die.

The saved and the lost can talk to each other while the lost are in torment?

Backlit said:

Who is tormented forever? If you are infusing your presumption into that text to include men, then why should anyone trust you to know what forever means?

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What else does forever mean?

Boy oh boy is this taking forever

Truther said:

What else does forever mean?

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22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.
28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.

kcnalp said:

No reason not to believe it's literal. A CERTAIN begger and a CERTAIN rich man. Abraham, Moses, literal Biblical people.

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Earlier in Luke 16 there were other parables...
1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods...

And in the previous chapter there is...
11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:

I have never heard anyone attempt to claim the story of the prodigal son or the one above as a true story. Yet neither parable is illogical or unable to be lived out in real life. Yet Luke 16, which contains incidents totally contradictory to common logic (like the saved and lost being able to talk to one another, see one another, while the lost is in torment) is presented as literal. On the basis of 'certain'? Sorry, that is not conclusive enough to prove anything. There are many features of the Rich man and Lazarus that have powerful symbolic lessons...it isn't an explanation of the after-life. It's a lesson to the Pharisees on salvation, and like other parables reveals how difficult it is for anyone to rely on wealth, birth, privilege to be saved. It was also a rebuke to the Pharisees for not sharing the truths of their religion with the peoples around them. (The 'dogs'). Not even crumbs.

Backlit said:

22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.
28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.

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God used a figure of speech in Rev?

For those who are serious, Jesus shows us that sinners would be cast into Gehenna.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mk. 9:43-46 KJV)

The word translated hell is Gehenna. In this passage Jesus alludes to a prophecy from Isaiah. He spoke of being cast into the fire that shall never be quenched. A place where the worm does not die. This is from Isaiah 66.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.(Isa. 66:22-1:1 KJV)

We know this place Isaiah writes of is Gehenna because Jesus called it Gehenna. Notice here however that is dead bodies that are burning, not souls or spirits. So, when Jesus spoke of being cast into Gehenna, it's dead bodies that will burn, not living souls or spirits. We also know that this place will not burn forever because Jeremiah also prophesied of this place.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about tAso Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

As we see here the whole valley of dead bodies and ashes will one day be made holy to the Lord. Again, it's dead bodies, not living souls or spirits. It's not going to burn forever, if it's going to one day be made holy to God. Jesus tells us that sinners will be cast into Gehenna. In Revelation John said sinner would be cast into the Lake of Fire. The only way to reconcile these is to understand that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Revelation is a book full of symbolism. Gehenna is a valley, if it was full of dead bodies that were burning it would appear to be a lake of fire. I think the symbolism is pretty clear.

Truther said:

God used a figure of speech in Rev?

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Of course. You think the beast with bears paws, horns, spots, a mouth like a lion and looking like a leopard is literal?

kcnalp said:

Your "certain" point taken, but no parable used literal people. The rich man and Lazarus account strongly emphasizes torment in the fire and yet alive. As does Rev 20.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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People who end up in the lake of fire are alive, and no-one is saying otherwise. Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Only alive people do that right? The debate is over how long they are alive. And scripture is clear. Until they are destroyed. Each one suffering justly according to his works. Them they receive the final wages due their sin... They die.

Just imagine when all is finished, no more death, sorrow, pain.
Saints living here on Earth and God and Jesus - Rev.21
Evil wicked people living forever inside the Earth hell where there is pain fire and darkness.
We will be all together on one planet, just different level.

Butch5 said:

Yes, but it's not what people today call Hell. Today Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. In he Scriptures Hell is the grave

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Hell is the heart of the earth where the lava is. People that go to hell are cast there. We have numerous scriptures about the heart of the earth and also Jesus visiting there (Matthew 12:40). The lake of fire is described as eternal torment explicitly in the scriptures (Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 20:10). You can deny the scriptures, but all of this is described in there. Hope this helps, much Love.

Devin Wintch said:

Hell is the heart of the earth where the lava is. People that go to hell are cast there. We have numerous scriptures about the heart of the earth and also Jesus visiting there (Matthew 12:40). The lake of fire is described as eternal torment explicitly in the scriptures (Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 20:10). You can deny the scriptures, but all of this is described in there. Hope this helps, much Love.

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Can you show us where this place with lava is?
The Lake of Fire is not described as a place of eternal torment. People get that idea from reading a mistranslation of the word aion. If you read post 313 you'll see the the Lake of Fire will one day be made holy to the Lord. Also, if you read Isaiah 66 you'll see that it is dead bodies burning in a place Jesus called Gehenna. Gehenna is the Valley of the Son Of Hinom and it's located just outside of Jerusalem. Also, notice in Isaiah 66 that the people who come to worship the Lord will see these dead bodies. That means it's on the surface of the land where people live. So, obviously, the phrase, 'the heart of the earth', doesnt mean somewhere in the center of the planet.

Butch5 said:

Can you show us where this place with lava is?
The Lake of Fire is not described as a place of eternal torment. People get that idea from reading a mistranslation of the word aion. If you read post 313 you'll see the the Lake of Fire will one day be made holy to the Lord. Also, if you read Isaiah 66 you'll see that it is dead bodies burning in a place Jesus called Gehenna. Gehenna is the Valley of the Son Of Hinom and it's located just outside of Jerusalem. Also, notice in Isaiah 66 that the people who come to worship the Lord will see these dead bodies. That means it's on the surface of the land where people live. So, obviously, the phrase, 'the heart of the earth', doesnt mean somewhere in the center of the planet.

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I just showed you where this place with lava is, it's in the "heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40, 1 Peter 3:19), heart definition means "the central or innermost part of something.". Science teaches us that lava is in the heart of the earth which is apparent from the volcanic activity. There are many verses biblical that speak of such a place (Luke 16:23-24).

The old testament is speaking of wars of cities, and the burning bodies are nothing more than war atrocities. You are mis-interpreting it and making it into something else, which I find happens a lot with verses in the bible I find, we must look first at passages literal, and if literal makes no sense then figurative. But you've got into a language paradox apparently. The image of war atrocity is hell.