OUR PATTERN FOR SALVATION

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Mungo

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Only pointing out the correct Strongs number.

But it isn't the correct Strong number

the gospel is two words - to euaggelion

to
G3588
t_ Acc Sg n
THE


euaggelion
G2098
n_ Acc Sg n
WELL-MESSAGE
 

Doug

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Peter says "every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."

Interestingly at Mass today the first reading was from Rom 8
In vs 30 Paul says "And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Both Peter and Paul refer to those God calls and God doesn't call people to different paths to him. There is only oen that is through Jesus Christ and the New Covenant.
Here is the whole verse of Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
You can not disconnect "even as many as the Lord our God shall call." and say that applies to any and everybody when it is specifically talking of Israel.
Just because a word is used, like called, elsewhere does not mean it has only one application
 

Doug

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Jesus doesn't say that every believer will have all those signs but that they will be present among the believers.
Mark 16:17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe" How can it be said this is just some?
If Mark 16:16 applies to you then you should have the signs of Mark 16:17-18
 

Mungo

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Yes, but it is a phrase "that gospel" not just separate words as you conveyed by separating "the".

No it isn't a phrase "that gospel" It's phrase "the gospel". The greek is two words and neither of them is "that".
 

Mungo

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Here is the whole verse of Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
You can not disconnect "even as many as the Lord our God shall call." and say that applies to any and everybody when it is specifically talking of Israel.
Just because a word is used, like called, elsewhere does not mean it has only one application

Just because Peter starts of addressi9ng the Jews doesn't mean those whom he called only means Jews.

Jesus told the apostles "you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8) and “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation". They start with the Jews in Jerusalem and then broaden out to the whole of creation.
 

Mungo

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Mark 16:17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe" How can it be said this is just some?
If Mark 16:16 applies to you then you should have the signs of Mark 16:17-18

Mk 16:16 is singular. "He who believes..."
If an individual believes and is baptised that individual will be saved.

Mk 16:17 they is plural. It's referring to believers as a group. The signs will be among the group not every individual.
 

Doug

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Just because Peter starts of addressi9ng the Jews doesn't mean those whom he called only means Jews.

Jesus told the apostles "you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8) and “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation". They start with the Jews in Jerusalem and then broaden out to the whole of creation.
We will have to disagree on this.
This is all one group in Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." and they are all Israel.
It is true all sinners are called to repent and believe the gospel both Jew and Gentile See Luke 5:32 Romans 1:6
 

Doug

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Mk 16:16 is singular. "He who believes..."
If an individual believes and is baptised that individual will be saved.

Mk 16:17 they is plural. It's referring to believers as a group. The signs will be among the group not every individual.
Ok, then what group today has these signs, should they not be evident in your church?
 

Doug

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@Doug
Please can you explain what your point is about Mt 16:16 & 17.
Sure, my point is if Mark 16:16 is for you then so should Mark 16:17-18. They go together and you have to divorce them somehow to continue to isolate verses to be applied to yourself. This practice of picking out verses that apply to you and others do not is legitimate, but it has to be rightly divided, there has to be other supporting verses to do that such as in our discussion of Acts 2:39 below:
Acts 2:39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Daniel 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
So in Daniel we have supporting scripture to say Israel was in view as being afar off and scattered.
But, Paul says it about Gentiles in Ephesians 2:17.
So how do I decide which afar off is in view in Acts 2:39......it is more reasonable to say he is talking about scattered Jews since he is addressing Jews.

I would still like to know if you see these Mark 16:17-18 signs in your church, or anywhere?
 

Mungo

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Sure, my point is if Mark 16:16 is for you then so should Mark 16:17-18. They go together and you have to divorce them somehow to continue to isolate verses to be applied to yourself. This practice of picking out verses that apply to you and others do not is legitimate, but it has to be rightly divided, there has to be other supporting verses to do that such as in our discussion of Acts 2:39 below:
Acts 2:39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Daniel 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
So in Daniel we have supporting scripture to say Israel was in view as being afar off and scattered.
But, Paul says it about Gentiles in Ephesians 2:17.
So how do I decide which afar off is in view in Acts 2:39......it is more reasonable to say he is talking about scattered Jews since he is addressing Jews.

I would still like to know if you see these Mark 16:17-18 signs in your church, or anywhere?

Certainly in the Catholic Church there have been, and still are, demons being cast out, sick people healed, and speaking in tongues. Whether anyone has picked up a serpent or drank poison and survived I cannot say.

As to Mk 16:16 clearly to my mind Jesus is talking about individuals, whereas in Mk 16:17 he is speaking generally about disciples.

As to picking out verses I consider trying to connect Daniel 9:7 to Acts 2:39 just because they both use the phrase "far off" is ridiculous. And then why reject Eph 2:17 when Paul is referring to both Jews and gentiles? Just because it does not serve your argument?
 
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Doug

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Certainly in the Catholic Church there have been, and still are, demons being cast out, sick people healed, and speaking in tongues. Whether anyone has picked up a serpent or drank poison and survived I cannot say.

As to Mk 16:16 clearly to my mind Jesus is talking about individuals, whereas in Mk 16:17 he is speaking generally about disciples.

As to picking out verses I consider trying to connect Daniel 9:7 to Acts 2:39 just because they both use the phrase "far off" is ridiculous. And then why reject Eph 2:17 when Paul is referring to both Jews and gentiles? Just because it does not serve your argument?
I did say why I did not think Ephesians 2:17 applied:
"So how do I decide which afar off is in view in Acts 2:39......it is more reasonable to say he is talking about scattered Jews since he is addressing Jews."
 

Mungo

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I did say why I did not think Ephesians 2:17 applied:
"So how do I decide which afar off is in view in Acts 2:39......it is more reasonable to say he is talking about scattered Jews since he is addressing Jews."

We will just have to disagree on that.
 
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Doug

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Certainly in the Catholic Church there have been, and still are, demons being cast out, sick people healed, and speaking in tongues. Whether anyone has picked up a serpent or drank poison and survived I cannot say.

As to Mk 16:16 clearly to my mind Jesus is talking about individuals, whereas in Mk 16:17 he is speaking generally about disciples.

As to picking out verses I consider trying to connect Daniel 9:7 to Acts 2:39 just because they both use the phrase "far off" is ridiculous. And then why reject Eph 2:17 when Paul is referring to both Jews and gentiles? Just because it does not serve your argument?
In regard to speaking in tongues......look at Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
In your church what languages are spoken ?
 

Mungo

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In regard to speaking in tongues......look at Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
In your church what languages are spoken ?

people argue about whether "tongues" is just people speaking a different human language or a language of the Spirit as Charismatics believe.

However this seems to be way off topic.
 

Doug

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people argue about whether "tongues" is just people speaking a different human language or a language of the Spirit as Charismatics believe.

However this seems to be way off topic.
No, it is not off topic, if as you say, Mark 16:16 is relevant for you today and applies to you today, then Mark 16:17-18 are likewise relevant.
You said Mark 16:17-18 was for a group that believed and were baptized as stated in Mark 16:16...I asked then, what signs were exhibited in your group of believers, your church, as these signs must follow at least a select group who are saved in accordance with Mark 16:16.
People may argue, but what does this passage say in regards to tongues, we should not base our view on what people say, but scripture.....right?
So, Acts 2:6 says they spoke in an existing language....the question remains, what language of tongues was evidenced as a sign in your church?
 
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Mungo

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No, it is not off topic, if as you say, Mark 16:16 is relevant for you today and applies to you today, then Mark 16:17-18 are likewise relevant.
You said Mark 16:17-18 was for a group that believed and were baptized as stated in Mark 16:16...I asked then, what signs were exhibited in your group of believers, your church, as these signs must follow at least a select group who are saved in accordance with Mark 16:16.
People may argue, but what does this passage say in regards to tongues, we should not base our view on what people say, but scripture.....right?
So, Acts 2:6 says they spoke in an existing language....the question remains, what language of tongues was evidenced as a sign in your church?

Mark 16:17-18 says tongues not language.

As to speaking languages; the Catholic Church is worldwide so as a group Catholics speak hundreds if not thousands of languages.
 

Doug

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Gal 2:2 "I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain."
The word translated "the" is Strong 3588
Strong's Concordance
ho, hé, to: the
Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article. (my emboldening)
I, out of curiosity looked up #3588 and yes it can be translated as the....BUT, it can also be translated that.
 

Doug

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Mark 16:17-18 says tongues not language.

As to speaking languages; the Catholic Church is worldwide so as a group Catholics speak hundreds if not thousands of languages.
Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
They were speaking in tongues and tongues was another language.
I have heard churches speak in tongues...it is gibberish, not a real language. There was no one to interpret as commanded in 1 Corinthians 14:27, was there in your church?
So, your church can not claim all the signs in Mark 16:17-18...some does not fulfill the text...so Mark 16:16 is misapplied.
No doubt the church speaks their own language...that is not speaking in another's language.
Fact is, no church can claim all these signs because Mark 16:16 was given only to Peter and the disciples and was not yet fulfilled...their "great commission" was interrupted with this dispensation of grace and will resume in the future tribulation....trying to apply this today, to the church in this dispensation, is at best error.
 
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