My theory about the "Word" in John 1:1

justbyfaith said:

Actually the Lord didn't violate the law in that instance.
The law required that there be two or three witnesses in order for a stoning to take place. By the time Jesus was done with them, there were no witnesses left.

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Once again you are engaging in the absurd - Jesus told the court - who had already pronounced the woman guilty - to leave unless they were sinless rather than follow the law which is to stone the woman and get rid of the evil. Jesus instructed the crowd to go against OT Law.

See Romans 5:9, Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29,

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Why would I look to Paul for information on the salvation formulation of Jesus in Matt 5-7

The Sermon on the Mount is Jesus' treatise on the law; it is not His teaching on salvation

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Yes it is - are you blind ? Once again you are in denial of the teachings of Jesus.

Actually, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus condemns those who are trusting in their works to save them.

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No he doesn't - Jesus states that the Faith crowd will not necessarily make it - .. those that prophesy in the name of Jesus is not "works" - least not the kind Jesus refers to as works.

What Jesus says is "Only the will of the Father" - and this is works works and more works. Jesus then repeats for those such as yourself who didn't get it the first time in Matt 7:24 .. stating that one builds a solid foundation by doing good works - "not the hearers of the word but the doers"

You are blind to the teachings of Jesus.

justbyfaith said:

Children are to be killed for their own sin.

You are not going to shame me out of understanding that there is a reconciliation for these apparent contradictions.
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There is no reconciliation of the passage in question where God commands that Children be killed for the sins of others in the town worshiping other Gods.

Why do you insist on falsely stating what the passage in the Bible states ? It is one thing to cherry pick scripture - which you do a lot of - quite another to falsely state what is said in various passages.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

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The towns people are killed for woshiping other Gods .. and the Children are also killed on account of the sin of the townspeople.

What you are doing is falsely claiming that the children are killed for their own sin .. when they were killed on account of the sin of others.

Heyzeus said:

Once again you are engaging in the absurd - Jesus told the court - who had already pronounced the woman guilty - to leave unless they were sinless rather than follow the law which is to stone the woman and get rid of the evil. Jesus instructed the crowd to go against OT Law.

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He did not tell them to leave...they left of their own accord.

He told them to cast the first stone if they were sinless....they all left in shame because none of them were...

Thus there were no witnesses to the crime.

Because the ones to cast the stone in the OT were to be those who witnessed the crime.

Since no one cast a stone at her...there were no witnesses.

Jesus did not violate the law in not stoning her Himself...because He was not a witness to the crime from a human perspective.

Heyzeus said:

Why would I look to Paul for information on the salvation formulation of Jesus in Matt 5-7

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Because all of Paul's writings are inspired (2 Timothy 3:16).

Heyzeus said:

No he doesn't -

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Jesus does indeed condemn those who were trusting in their own works in that passage:

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Heyzeus said:

The towns people are killed for woshiping other Gods .. and the Children are also killed on account of the sin of the townspeople. What you are doing is falsely claiming that the children are killed for their own sin .. when they were killed on account of the sin of others.

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You seem to think that little children do not have mental capacities.

They may copy the adults around them; but they do have minds and they do think.

If you were a child whose parents had been killed for worshiping other gods and your life was spared, what would your reaction be?

Would you not want revenge on behalf of your parents?

It is very likely that even the little children were corrupted by the idolatry that God was warning against.

justbyfaith said:

He did not tell them to leave...they left of their own accord.

He told them to cast the first stone if they were sinless....they all left in shame because none of them were...

Thus there were no witnesses to the crime.

Because the ones to cast the stone in the OT were to be those who witnessed the crime.

Since no one cast a stone at her...there were no witnesses.

Jesus did not violate the law in not stoning her Himself...because He was not a witness to the crime from a human perspective.

Jesus does indeed condemn those who were trusting in their own works in that passage:

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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You don't understand the term "works" / actions. This does not mean that all actions will get you into heaven .. or that all actions are good.
You are completely lost. Jesus is saying that not all those with "Faith" make it .. and this is made clear in the previous passage when he talks about false prophets .. and how you know them by their deeds/actions/ fruit .

So just because someone has fruit - does not mean it is good fruit. This is the root of your confusion.

"Stoning" - the people all went home because of what Jesus said to them 'he without sin cast the first rock" . Your logic skills are failing you. We all sin .. so if we are not to punish the sin of others because of this ..then there is no civil punishment for these sins = violating OT Law. .. dismissing it outright in fact.

Your claim that a 6 month old baby or a fetus has the cognitive ability to worship false Gods is as warped and dripping in falsehood as it gets.

No point in going further on this one - because there is no point in debating someone who can not figure out that a Fetus does not have the cognitive ability to worship other Gods.

janc said:

I think that the Word in John 1:1 is the speech of God, which means that God created the world by speaking. If you look at Genesis 1 you will see that every time before God created something it says "and God spoke". Also in Psalm 33:6 it is written "By the word of the Lord the heavens were created,for he spoke and it was". If this theory is true, if the Word is the spoken word of God, then the "Word" is the expression of the spirit that expresses the thoughts of a person. This then means that the Word of God in John 1:1 is actually God the father himself. The Word is, so to speak, the spirit of a person. It is written that the Holy Spirit came to Mary, and then the Son of God was begotten, the Holy Spirit is accordingly the Word who became flesh, God himself became flesh, his spirit manifested in the flesh.
So there was no "Son of God" before the Incarnation, and so no Trinity either.

What's your opinion on that?

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Word was a person, was with the father, and was also God, and became born as jesus Christ!

DaChaser said:

Word was a person, was with the father, and was also God, and became born as jesus Christ!

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The actual term used in John is "Logos" - which is mistranslated as "Word" in modern texts.

The Logos concept was known very well by the audience the Author of John is speaking to. The Logos is the emissary between man and God.

Jesus was "the Logos" - who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit. The emissary between man and God.

This in no way meant that Jesus was God - "The Father" .. this is simply not something the Early Church believed. Not the disciples, not Paul, not the people, not Jesus .. and not the early Church Fathers .. all who believed that Jesus was subordinate to the Father.

Heyzeus said:

The actual term used in John is "Logos" - which is mistranslated as "Word" in modern texts.

The Logos concept was known very well by the audience the Author of John is speaking to. The Logos is the emissary between man and God.

Jesus was "the Logos" - who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit. The emissary between man and God.

This in no way meant that Jesus was God - "The Father" .. this is simply not something the Early Church believed. Not the disciples, not Paul, not the people, not Jesus .. and not the early Church Fathers .. all who believed that Jesus was subordinate to the Father.

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Jesus was doing the work of the father, but was fully equal to Him !

Heyzeus said:

You don't understand the term "works" / actions. This does not mean that all actions will get you into heaven .. or that all actions are good.
You are completely lost. Jesus is saying that not all those with "Faith" make it .. and this is made clear in the previous passage when he talks about false prophets .. and how you know them by their deeds/actions/ fruit .

So just because someone has fruit - does not mean it is good fruit. This is the root of your confusion.

"Stoning" - the people all went home because of what Jesus said to them 'he without sin cast the first rock" . Your logic skills are failing you. We all sin .. so if we are not to punish the sin of others because of this ..then there is no civil punishment for these sins = violating OT Law. .. dismissing it outright in fact.

Your claim that a 6 month old baby or a fetus has the cognitive ability to worship false Gods is as warped and dripping in falsehood as it gets.

No point in going further on this one - because there is no point in debating someone who can not figure out that a Fetus does not have the cognitive ability to worship other Gods.

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Except that your contention in saying all of this is to try and convince us that there are contradictions in the Bible.

That is unacceptable...and it shows that you are attempting to deter people away from the faith.

I will only say that we do not have all of the facts; and that we would do well to trust in the LORD with all of our hearts and lean not on our own understanding.

I don't suppose that you have thought of any other contradictions that you see in the Bible that you would want to bring forth?

Because I have dealt with this one...although you want to shame me out of the reconciliation of these scriptures.

I don't think that you even have any more.

So then, if there is only one apparent contradiction in the Bible that is difficult to deal with (yet not impossible), I think that God has a pretty good score...especially since it is the contention of atheists and unbelievers that there are many contradictions therein.

DaChaser said:

Jesus was doing the work of the father, but was fully equal to Him !

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You Don't know that. This is man made dogma you are spouting .. created near 4 centuries after the Death of our Lord..

I can give you 20 quotes from Jesus stating rather defacto that he is not the Father .. as in referring to "The Father" as someone other than himself..

You can come up with perhaps 2 or 3 places where Jesus says something vague - that "could be taken" to mean he is one with the Father .. but it is still a big stretch to infer equality from this .. Divinity yes .. but Equality is a higher bar.. Especially given the vast amount of evidence to the contrary from the mouth of Jesus.

Biblical Chess has begun .. Lets see what Scripture you have in your bag .. remember .. from the mouth of Jesus - not from the mouth of Paul or someone pretending to be Paul. From the Synoptics . or John - and you are lucky I have allowed John .. as I really don't have to... as that is where most all of your material will come from.

Your move.

Heyzeus said:

I can give you 20 quotes from Jesus stating rather defacto that he is not the Father ..

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See posts #1-#6 in the following:

True Trinity.

justbyfaith said:

See posts #1-#6 in the following:

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how about just giving one solid argument rather than a Plethora of gibberish .. most of which does not support your claim.

Quote from Jesus in support of the your claim that Jesus is equal with God .. I will quote from Jesus where he claims that he is not equal with God.

To save time .. you give 3 .. and I will give 3 round 1 Your move !

Heyzeus said:

how about just giving one solid argument rather than a Plethora of gibberish .. most of which does not support your claim.

Quote from Jesus in support of the your claim that Jesus is equal with God .. I will quote from Jesus where he claims that he is not equal with God.

To save time .. you give 3 .. and I will give 3 round 1 Your move !

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I am content to have the first six posts of my thread to speak for themselves.

True Trinity.

Heyzeus said:

You Don't know that. This is man made dogma you are spouting .. created near 4 centuries after the Death of our Lord..

I can give you 20 quotes from Jesus stating rather defacto that he is not the Father .. as in referring to "The Father" as someone other than himself..

You can come up with perhaps 2 or 3 places where Jesus says something vague - that "could be taken" to mean he is one with the Father .. but it is still a big stretch to infer equality from this .. Divinity yes .. but Equality is a higher bar.. Especially given the vast amount of evidence to the contrary from the mouth of Jesus.

Biblical Chess has begun .. Lets see what Scripture you have in your bag .. remember .. from the mouth of Jesus - not from the mouth of Paul or someone pretending to be Paul. From the Synoptics . or John - and you are lucky I have allowed John .. as I really don't have to... as that is where most all of your material will come from.

Your move.

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John was clear in His prologue that Jesus was God, and yet was also not the Father!

Heyzeus said:

how about just giving one solid argument rather than a Plethora of gibberish .. most of which does not support your claim.

Quote from Jesus in support of the your claim that Jesus is equal with God .. I will quote from Jesus where he claims that he is not equal with God.

To save time .. you give 3 .. and I will give 3 round 1 Your move !

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Thomas ;My Lord and my God"

justbyfaith said:

Except that your contention in saying all of this is to try and convince us that there are contradictions in the Bible.

That is unacceptable...and it shows that you are attempting to deter people away from the faith.

I will only say that we do not have all of the facts; and that we would do well to trust in the LORD with all of our hearts and lean not on our own understanding.

I don't suppose that you have thought of any other contradictions that you see in the Bible that you would want to bring forth?

Because I have dealt with this one...although you want to shame me out of the reconciliation of these scriptures.

I don't think that you even have any more.

So then, if there is only one apparent contradiction in the Bible that is difficult to deal with (yet not impossible), I think that God has a pretty good score...especially since it is the contention of atheists and unbelievers that there are many contradictions therein.

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Scriptures tell us that we are saved by the grace of God unto then good works!

DaChaser said:

John was clear in His prologue that Jesus was God, and yet was also not the Father!

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The author of John was clear that Jesus was "The Logos" - the emissary between man and God. Unfortunately the mistranslation of this word - to "Word" - rather than "Logos" is the source of this confusion.

The emissary of God - "The Logos" - is not God.

Heyzeus said:

The author of John was clear that Jesus was "The Logos" - the emissary between man and God. Unfortunately the mistranslation of this word - to "Word" - rather than "Logos" is the source of this confusion.

The emissary of God - "The Logos" - is not God.

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Jesus received worship as God by the angels and by humans

DaChaser said:

Jesus received worship as God by the angels and by humans

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True - but Jesus did not accept this worship .. told them to save that for the Father...

When called Good - asked why you call me good - no one/human is good - only The Father. paraphrasing.

Jesus says he was sent not for Worship .. so interesting that you brought this up.

Heyzeus said:

True - but Jesus did not accept this worship .. told them to save that for the Father...

When called Good - asked why you call me good - no one/human is good - only The Father. paraphrasing.

Jesus says he was sent not for Worship .. so interesting that you brought this up.

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God the father commanded angels and all creatures to worship Jesus as Lord!

DaChaser said:

God the father commanded angels and all creatures to worship Jesus as Lord!

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Yes .. but this makes God someone other than Jesus

DaChaser said:

Thomas ;My Lord and my God"

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You need to give 3 - and they have to be from the mouth of Jesus - which your quote is not.

Was this not clear or was the assignment too tough ? - OK 2 passages from Jesus stating that he is "The Father". I will still give 3 to support my claim that Jesus is not "The Father" - nor co-equal with the Father - except in spirit.