Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?

Davy · Oct 15, 2020

Trekson said:
I also find it interesting that the HS is speaking to everybody but it never seems to be the same message. If one makes a statement like I am right and you are wrong because I'm spiritually more in tune than that throws up a red flag to me. I don't think it's asking too much for a man's prophetic beliefs line up with what the bible actually says. If one feels the need to add things to the prophecies that aren't in line w/ the rest of them, then biblically they are treading upon dangerous ground. Fact, the bible never says there is a seven yr. "trib". Fact, the bible never divides the week into halves. Fact, the bible never says the great trib is 3 1/2 yrs. long. I believe I do know what the great trib is as the bible actually implies and it has nothing to do w/ the last part of the 70th week.

It's easy for The Holy Spirit to reveal who is speaking by It, simply because it's easy to know when someone is preaching a doctrine of men not written in God's Word, such as the false pre-trib rapture theory:

Lord Jesus speaking to His Church:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

The false pre-trib rapture theory preaches DIRECTLY AGAINST that above Scripture by Lord Jesus. That reveals those who do that ARE NOT SPEAKING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but instead by another spirit.

Davy · Oct 16, 2020

rjs330 said:
To make it clear, you DO believe that people that believe in pre-trib ARE unrighteous and NOT Christians?

Apparently you are not aware of what Lord Jesus said about those who appear 'naked' in regards to the spiritual clothing.

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV

Rev 3:17-18
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
KJV

Rev 3:4
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy.
KJV

NEWS FLASH: not everyone that says to Jesus when He appears, "Lord, Lord...", will He allow near Him. Don't you recall His parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25? Five of those were "foolish", and He shut the door on those.

Did you not know that a believer on Christ can lose... their spiritual garments by not staying in Him, but instead by falling away?

Did you not know that a believer on Christ can appear 'spiritually' naked, having lost the spiritual garments, and when He appears stand in shame, because of falling away?

It's time to quit playing religion, and get into His Word, because most Church systems today are not... going to warn about the Signs in His Word that He gave us to be watching leading up to His return, SO THAT WE WOULD NOT BE DECEIVED NOR FALL AWAY.

What's the main deception He revealed for the end, our times, just prior to His return? To NOT fall away to believe on the coming "man of sin", the coming Antichrist that is to work great signs and miracles in Jerusalem for the last days who will claim to be GOD, deceiving the whole world!

Davy · Oct 16, 2020

rjs330 said:
I can argue my points as to why I believe something, but prophecy in this matter is not so clear as to be absolute.

I disagree. I find the prophecies about the timing of Christ's return and gathering of His Church is very... clear, absolute even.

Try --
Matthew 24:29-31
and
Mark 13:24-27.

Compare 'where' those two groups of saints are gathered from to...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

The event of His coming per the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scripture is the last SIGN He gave there which parallels His coming on the 6th Seal of Revelation 6.

Not only is that absolute proof, but Apostles Paul and Peter also further taught Jesus' "as a thief" metaphor about the 'day' of His coming to gather His Church. See 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3:10 about the "day of the Lord" timing, which is the 'last day' of this present world when Jesus returns to gather His Church. By that, Paul and Peter linked that "day of the Lord" to the OT prophets.

When Jesus taught about the day of His coming using the 'thief' metaphor, He was pulling from the OT prophets about that day being a surprise upon the wicked who are not looking for it. The OT prophets also linked that day with an instant destruction upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord" (Isaiah 2).

Matt 24:42-46
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
KJV

Jesus linked the day of His coming "as a thief" with the 7th Vial timing and Armageddon...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Apostle Paul made it plain that day is not to surprise us "as a thief"...

1 Thessalonians 5
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

That "day of the Lord", the last day of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church, is NOT supposed to take us by surprise "as a thief in the night". The surprise will be upon the deceived and the wicked who will not be looking for it!

So how is it you do not know these things per God's Word about the end? Time to get busy and do your own Bible study, because this is not being taught in most Churches today! Most of them are only going to preach the 'milk' of God's Word, and not the "strong meat". This is "strong meat" stuff, not for babes. Time to mature in Christ today, for the end is very, very, very near! Study!

tooldtocare · Oct 16, 2020

Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?

In my understanding of God, God does not allow or deny anything. What God does do; is give us the ability to chose for ourselves what we do or not do.

We are not-----

Davy · Oct 16, 2020

tooldtocare said:
Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?

In my understanding of God, God does not allow or deny anything. What God does do; is give us the ability to chose for ourselves what we do or not do.

Kind of a moot point.

If you had paid attention to what I wrote in the OP, you might have understood about God allowing the pagan Canaanites to remain dwelling among the children of Israel in order to test them with. And I supplied a reason why He said He did that. Same idea applies to the Churches today.

tooldtocare · Oct 16, 2020

Davy said:
If you had paid attention to what I wrote in the OP, you might have understood about God allowing the pagan Canaanites to remain dwelling among the children of Israel

I repeat, God does not "allow" anything. As to the time line, Israel was a person and was not even born yet.

Trekson · Oct 16, 2020

Davy said:
You are in denial of The Word of God as written on these things. Hopefully before the coming tribulation starts with the false-Messiah appearing in Jerusalem, you will realize that trap which the pre-trib rapture is setting many congregations up for. That false one is coming in the role of Lord Jesus Christ, working the great signs and wonders our Lord Jesus warned His elect about (Matthew 24:23-26). Revelation reveals that coming false one will be the "dragon", Satan himself on earth in our dimension. Thing is, he is coming to play Jesus Christ and the majority of the world will not realize it until our True Lord Jesus Christ returns at the end of the tribulation.

That pseudo-Christ is to show up on in the middle of Daniel's symbolic "one week", and is given to reign over all nations and peoples on earth 42 months, including power over the saints (Rev.13). When he sets up the "abomination of desolation" Lord Jesus warned about from the Book of Daniel, which per Daniel is in the middle of the "one week" (7 years), that... is when the time of "great tribulation" will start. That is within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, because Revelation 11 with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe shows that's when Christ comes, all the kingdoms of this world being made those of The Father and His Christ.

Sorry Davy but the great trib is not the latter part of the 70th week. The great trib is satan's wrath upon the church per Matt. 24 and Rev.6 and Rev. 12:17 and for the umpteenth time, I'm not pretrib. This great trib will be the worst time of persecution and martyrdom the world has ever seen and Jesus will end it by the rapture. The 5th seal martyrs will mostly come from that time period. Humanity gets wrath, the church get tribulation. It's all there in the bible if one is willing to remove their one-way blinders.

Trekson · Oct 16, 2020

Davy said:
It's easy for The Holy Spirit to reveal who is speaking by It, simply because it's easy to know when someone is preaching a doctrine of men not written in God's Word, such as the false pre-trib rapture theory:

Lord Jesus speaking to His Church:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

The false pre-trib rapture theory preaches DIRECTLY AGAINST that above Scripture by Lord Jesus. That reveals those who do that ARE NOT SPEAKING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but instead by another spirit.

The great trib is as I just explained in the previous post, the signs are the signs of the 6th seal, Rev. 7:9 shows our arrival in heaven prior to the 7th seal/1st trumpet. The seals are not part of God's wrath the church will still be here and if you imply I'm pre-trib one more time our conversation is over. I can't communicate w/ someone who doesn't take the time to actually read what I write.

Earburner · Oct 16, 2020

Davy said:
Many brethren are being duped by the charlatans behind the formation of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, as some of those even have made a lot of money for themselves pushing it. It's a lucrative business. But it has nothing to do with God's Truth in His Word, for no such idea of Christ coming to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation is written in The Bible. The written evidence in God's Word is just the opposite, that Jesus comes to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation, not before (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So why does our Heavenly Father and His Son allow those false ones who are out to deceive as many believers on Christ as possible, doing the devil's work?

The reason is simple, IF you've studied your Old Testament history about the rebelliousness of the children of Israel. Early on in Israel's history God had told them to not mix with the pagans, like the Canaanite peoples, as they would turn their hearts against Him and cause them to fall away to their false gods. Our Heavenly Father warned them about this several times all throughout their history. And in Deuteronomy 4 & 28 He warned what curses He would bring upon them for being rebellious, one of the big ones being their scattering among the Gentiles, to live with pagans.

In Judges 2 & 3, God finally told the children of Israel He would leave those of the Canaanite nations to live among them, to test them with, to see if they would follow Him, or not. This is the same matter with crept in unawares that creep into Christ's Church and push false doctrines that go directly against written Bible Scripture.

The Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is one of their doctrines, as God even warned His people about that doctrine in the Ezekiel 13 chapter. He said He is against those pastors that teach His people to fly to save their soul. But why would God put that warning all the way back in the Ezekiel 13 chapter? For the same reason that He allows the enemy to creep in and test you. It's to see if you will listen to man's word which are nothing, or to Him in HIS WORD. It's really that simple.

Folks then ask me, "well how do I know what is God's Word?" The answer to that is really simple, study to show thyself approved of God, a workman who need not be ashamed, like Apostle Paul told Timothy (2 Timothy 2:15). Otherwise, how you gonna' know what the preacher is teaching is actually God's Word, or some religious denominational doctrine by man devised in some far away city by God knows who?

John 16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Davy · Oct 17, 2020

tooldtocare said:
I repeat, God does not "allow" anything. As to the time line, Israel was a person and was not even born yet.

You certainly are lost in your own mind. God gave Jacob the name of Israel all the way back in Genesis 32, prior to his marrying and having children. Joshua 9 and Judges 2 & 3 are about the children of Israel migrating to the lands of promise. That is when the first Canaanites began to creep in among them, and God said He would leave them among the children to Israel to test them with. So quit trying to argue when you show YOU DON'T EVEN READ THE BIBLE.

Davy · Oct 17, 2020

Trekson said:
Sorry Davy but the great trib is not the latter part of the 70th week.

Yes it is, and it's easily revealed in Scripture, as I have shown.

1. "dragon" given power over all nations and peoples, including Israel, for 42 months.
2. 42 months equals 1260 days, which is half of the Dan.9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years.
3. the Gentiles given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months.
4. God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days, which is within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.
5. Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. All kingdoms become The Father's and His Son, which means the end of the dragon's 42 month reign.
6. 42 months back from Christ's 2nd coming = start of the "great tribulation" when the 'abomination of desolation' idol is setup in a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Davy · Oct 17, 2020

Trekson said:
The great trib is as I just explained in the previous post, the signs are the signs of the 6th seal, Rev. 7:9 shows our arrival in heaven prior to the 7th seal/1st trumpet. The seals are not part of God's wrath the church will still be here and if you imply I'm pre-trib one more time our conversation is over. I can't communicate w/ someone who doesn't take the time to actually read what I write.

There is NO RAPTURE TO HEAVEN. That is a lie from men's doctrines. It is nowhere written in God's Word.

Trekson · Oct 17, 2020

Davy said:
Yes it is, and it's easily revealed in Scripture, as I have shown.

1. "dragon" given power over all nations and peoples, including Israel, for 42 months.
2. 42 months equals 1260 days, which is half of the Dan.9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years.
3. the Gentiles given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months.
4. God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days, which is within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.
5. Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. All kingdoms become The Father's and His Son, which means the end of the dragon's 42 month reign.
6. 42 months back from Christ's 2nd coming = start of the "great tribulation" when the 'abomination of desolation' idol is setup in a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Funny, nothing there says it is the great trib, you just think it should be. The 7th trump is not the "last" trump. God will blow the the trumpet not an angel...Zech. 9:14. If you're trying to go chronologically, #5 happens before #1 so that would be an odd time for Jesus to return. #1 is the third woe!

Earburner · Oct 17, 2020

Davy said:
Yes it is, and it's easily revealed in Scripture, as I have shown.

1. "dragon" given power over all nations and peoples, including Israel, for 42 months.
2. 42 months equals 1260 days, which is half of the Dan.9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years.
3. the Gentiles given to tread the holy city (Jerusalem) for 42 months.
4. God's two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days, which is within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.
5. Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. All kingdoms become The Father's and His Son, which means the end of the dragon's 42 month reign.
6. 42 months back from Christ's 2nd coming = start of the "great tribulation" when the 'abomination of desolation' idol is setup in a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

It is evident that you have not read Daniel in conjunction with 1 Maccabees.
Clue: the prophecies of Daniel were for Israel, as the prophecies of Revelation are for the Age of God's Grace through the church.

Sabertooth · Oct 17, 2020

Davy said:
Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?

The fact of the matter is that we (including you) do not know how it will play out.
All Biblical prophecies will be fulfilled, but for now, we can only give our best guesses as to how. As that time approaches, it remains the Holy Spirit's job to prepare us for those events [John 14:26].

Correct eschatology is not a requirement for Salvation; only surrendering to Jesus as we currently understand Him is.

Keith Green used to say, "Pray for Pre-; prepare for Post-!"

(FYI, I lean Post-, but will gladly accept Pre- if that is how it plays out.)

Davy · Oct 17, 2020

Trekson said:
Funny, nothing there says it is the great trib, you just think it should be. The 7th trump is not the "last" trump. God will blow the the trumpet not an angel...Zech. 9:14. If you're trying to go chronologically, #5 happens before #1 so that would be an odd time for Jesus to return. #1 is the third woe!

You won't be able to deny what I showed when it happens, for all the world will know when God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem and prophesy there for 1260 days during the time when the false Messiah comes to power there.

Rev 11:7-9
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
KJV

Just how will those nations 'see' the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laid dead in the street of Jerusalem? It's called satellite technology, showing that coming event couldn't be possible until these latter days we are in.

Matt 16:1-3
16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired Him that He would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, "When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.'
3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring.' O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"
KJV

Davy · Oct 17, 2020

Sabertooth said:
The fact of the matter is that we (including you) do not know how it will play out.
All Biblical prophecies will be fulfilled, but for now, we can only give our best guesses as to how. As that time approaches, it remains the Holy Spirit's job to prepare us for those events [John 14:26].

Correct eschatology is not a requirement for Salvation; only surrendering to Jesus as we currently understand Him is.

Keith Green used to say, "Pray for Pre-; prepare for Post-!"

(FYI, I lean Post-, but will gladly accept Pre- if that is how it plays out.)

Speak for yourself, because God's Word tells His faithful exactly... "how it will play out".

Isa 42:8-9
8 I am the LORD: that is My name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
KJV

But those who listen to 'man' instead, will not know how things will happen leading up to Christ's return. Instead, those will be subject to the coming Antichrist, because that is who men's doctrines are designed to lead to.

For a believer on Christ that has subjected theirself to men's doctrines that actually want to 'know' what God's Word reveals is to happen, the FIRST REQUIREMENT is to quit listening to those men, and instead get into The Word of God asking our Heavenly Father and His Son for understanding. Self-discipline is required.

Afterall, Christ's Book of Revelation means 'the revealing'!!!

Sabertooth · Oct 17, 2020

Davy said:
Speak for yourself, because God's Word tells His faithful exactly... "how it will play out".

Do you mean like how the Messiah was going to "overthrow Rome?" How did that go?

dev553344 · Oct 17, 2020

Davy said:
Many brethren are being duped by the charlatans behind the formation of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, as some of those even have made a lot of money for themselves pushing it. It's a lucrative business. But it has nothing to do with God's Truth in His Word, for no such idea of Christ coming to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation is written in The Bible. The written evidence in God's Word is just the opposite, that Jesus comes to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation, not before (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So why does our Heavenly Father and His Son allow those false ones who are out to deceive as many believers on Christ as possible, doing the devil's work?

The reason is simple, IF you've studied your Old Testament history about the rebelliousness of the children of Israel. Early on in Israel's history God had told them to not mix with the pagans, like the Canaanite peoples, as they would turn their hearts against Him and cause them to fall away to their false gods. Our Heavenly Father warned them about this several times all throughout their history. And in Deuteronomy 4 & 28 He warned what curses He would bring upon them for being rebellious, one of the big ones being their scattering among the Gentiles, to live with pagans.

In Judges 2 & 3, God finally told the children of Israel He would leave those of the Canaanite nations to live among them, to test them with, to see if they would follow Him, or not. This is the same matter with crept in unawares that creep into Christ's Church and push false doctrines that go directly against written Bible Scripture.

The Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is one of their doctrines, as God even warned His people about that doctrine in the Ezekiel 13 chapter. He said He is against those pastors that teach His people to fly to save their soul. But why would God put that warning all the way back in the Ezekiel 13 chapter? For the same reason that He allows the enemy to creep in and test you. It's to see if you will listen to man's word which are nothing, or to Him in HIS WORD. It's really that simple.

Folks then ask me, "well how do I know what is God's Word?" The answer to that is really simple, study to show thyself approved of God, a workman who need not be ashamed, like Apostle Paul told Timothy (2 Timothy 2:15). Otherwise, how you gonna' know what the preacher is teaching is actually God's Word, or some religious denominational doctrine by man devised in some far away city by God knows who?

There's some evidence of rapture in the bible from what I can tell. Matthew 24:36-44.

Not sure why you're teaching different. I'm not really that into pretrib rapture, but I can't argue it given Matthew 24:36-44 either.

Davy · Oct 17, 2020

Devin Wintch said:
There's some evidence of rapture in the bible from what I can tell. Matthew 24:36-44.

Not sure why you're teaching different. I'm not really that into pretrib rapture, but I can't argue it given Matthew 24:36-44 either.

Sorry, but your words above betray you; that you actually don't know what God's Word teaches about a 'rapture'. If you did know, you wouldn't wrongly infer what I teach is something different than God's written Word! But just by claiming I do, tells me you probably hold to men's false pre-trib rapture theory.

Agreement of terms needed first:
I use the KJV translator's terminology of Apostle Paul's teaching about a rapture. The word 'rapture' itself is NOT in God's Word, not in the manuscripts, nor in the KJV translation. The KJV, which I use, says "caught up" for the Greek word 'harpazo' (to seize). The word rapture comes from a Latin translation of that Greek word 'harpazo'.

You call it a 'rapture', I call it being "caught up" like the KJV says.

What the KJV also says, from the Greek, is that Christ's saints still alive on earth when He comes will be "caught up" to the "air" (aer - Greek for breath), when Jesus appears coming in the clouds on His way back to earth. Paul also said there that Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes. That means they are resurrected and they return with Him in the clouds. But those us still alive are "caught up" to them, and we all become one group in Christ, with Him on His way to Jerusalem.

The part about 'where' He is going to return to with His Church isn't given by Apostle Paul in that 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter. But it is... given in the Zechariah 14 Chapter in the Old Testament. Where Jesus returns to on earth is also given in the Acts 1 Chapter where His disciples witnessed His ascending to The Father while upon the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem.

I do not deny any of that per the 1 Thessalonians 4, and Acts 1, and Zechariah 14 Scriptures.

Does that sound like I deny the 1 Thessalonians 4 events?

Why Does God Allow The False Pre-trib Rapture Lie?

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