The Catholic Church

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Brother Mike

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Thank you Guestman.............

I suppose one could get upset that people call themselves Christians and pray with or to dead people. I suppose it's disturbing that God's Word is not the only authority to someone that calls themselves Christian. I don't even understand the whole Mary thing, Show some respect and let the women enjoy her time in Heaven with the Lord. Jesus is Head of the Church. Not Mary.

Through all of that Guestman, we have CNN to blow the whistle. I can't offend the thousands that have not touched kids. You can't get someone to see truth if we keep telling them how messed up they are.

It's just that this is a "Christian" forum. I guess it would be nice if Catholics could come here and not get blasted for someone's mistake or get their nose rubbed in it. It would be nice, if they would not have to hear how goofy their belief system is.

Being a tongue talking, Word of faith person who listens to Kenneth Copeland, It would be nice if I could post what I believe and not one time have someone come in yelling "Heretic!!!!" It would be nice, but not reality.

That is all I am saying Guestman...................... Someone starts a thread called "The Catholic Church" and here we come to let them know what we think about it.......................does it take greater person to keep quite and walk in Love, or is the person greater if we let them know what we are thinking? Did we make a difference?

Jesus Is Lord.
 

pastorlesofm

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Is Jesus in agreement with you, that it's not "cool" to expose the faults of those who profess to serve God ? For example, why did Jesus condemn the religious leaders in his day, telling them that "truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God. For John came to you in a way of righteousness, but you did not believe him. However, the tax collectors and the harlots believed him, and you, although you saw this, did not feel regret afterwards so as to believe him" ?(Matt 21:31, 32)

Or when just three days before his death at the hands of the same religious leaders, why did Jesus scathingly condemn the religious leaders for putting themselves on a "pedestal", saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses....Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in" ?(Matt 23:2, 13)

Like the scribes and Pharisees, the Catholic Church has seated itself in the "seat of Moses", blocking entry into the "kingdom of the heavens" by teaching doctrines and traditions that have made the "word of God invalid."(Matt 15:6) Additionally, the serious issue of pedophile priests has been hidden or downplayed. In the Huffington Post of April 1, 2010, it stated that the Vatican has been aware of the evidence of pedophilia priests for decades, with even Pope Paul VI having a meeting with Gerald M.C. Fitzgerald, head of a Roman Catholic order that specialized in the treatment of pedophile priests nearly fifty years ago. This meeting was followed up with a letter recommending the removal of pedophile priests from the ministry, dated August 27, 1963. In this letter, "the head of the New Mexico-based Servants of the Holy Paraclete tells the Pope he recommends removing pedophile priests from active ministry and strongly urges defrocking repeat offenders."

Hence, the Vatican has well aware of the pedophilia problem. In fact, this problem was clearly known many years earlier, for in 1917, the Catholic Church formulated a "canon law (that) criminalized sexual abuse of minors." And in 1922, the Catholic Church "penned a document outlining detailed procedures for handling such cases. In 1962 that document was updated and has been used in many of the lawsuits by victims against U.S.diocese and the Vatican itself."

The article further said that "The letter (released in 2007 at a hearing in Los Angeles), written by the Rev. Gerald M.C. Fitzgerald, appears to have been drafted at the request of the pope and summarizes Fitzgerald's thoughts on problem priests after his Vatican visit. The letter echoes other Fitzgerald writings about wayward priests.

Several news organizations, including the AP, reported last year that Fitzgerald was intent on buying an island where priests attracted to men and boys could be segregated, and even made a $5,000 down payment on a Caribbean island for that purpose. "It is for this class of rattlesnake I have always wished an island retreat, but even an island is too good for these vipers," he wrote an acquaintance in 1957.
In 1960, he sent two priests from the Paracletes to the island of Tortola to investigate the location – but his dream of an island monastery dedicated to trouble priests ended when the new archbishop of Santa Fe overruled him, his successor, Rev. Joseph McNamara, has said in an affidavit."

It additionally says that "Fitzgerald opens the five-page letter by thanking the pope for an audience the day before and says he is summarizing his thoughts at the pope's request on the "problem of the problem priest" after 20 years working to treat them. He tells Paul VI that treatment for priests who have succumbed to "abnormal, homosexual tendencies" should include psychiatric, as well as spiritual, counseling – but goes on to warn about the dangers of leaving those individuals in ministry.

Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald wrote: "Personally, I am not sanguine (confident) of the return of priests to active duty who have been addicted to abnormal practices, especially sins with the young. Where there is indication of incorrigibility, because of the tremendous scandal given, I would most earnestly recommend total laicization ("give control of it to the lay community", Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)," he wrote. "I say 'total' ... because when these men are taken before civil authority, the non-Catholic world definitely blames the discipline of celibacy for the perversion of these men."

The letter proves that Vatican officials knew about clergy abuse decades ago. The Sunday Telegraph of Sydney, New South Wales reported in 1994: “The Australian Catholic Church has taken out a multimillion dollar insurance policy to protect itself against claims of sexual abuse by priests,... We admit it goes on,” said a Catholic bishop in Melbourne, Australia. He asserts that such extensive insurance coverage is normal “for that kind of offence.” According to a support group for the victims, sexual abuse by the clergy is more widespread than the church admits. A spokesman for the group said he believes the church’s focus is more on protecting the clergy than helping the victims. He added that the message “at the very core of the church’s documents is, don’t tell the truth.”

Would Jesus overlook such gross disregard for the moral principles that God's Word stipulates ? Jesus set the precedent by scathingly condemning the religious leaders during his final moments before his death for their conduct. The apostle Paul wrote that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and tomorrow."(Heb 13:8) The nation of Israel was corrupt in the first century, during Jesus tenure of 3 1/2 years as God's "servant."(Matt 12:18) So likewise is the Catholic Church. And what has been brought forth is just the "tip of the iceberg", for over the centuries since it's inception in the fourth century C.E., the Catholic Church has piled up mountains of evidence of atrocities, even burning individuals at the stake for merely possessing a Bible.

Revelation 18:5, 7 sums up the matter, as part of worldwide empire of false religion, Babylon the Great, that the Catholic Church has "sins (that ) have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind....To the extent that she lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ' I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning."


Simple response: I use garlic in everything I cook or prepare.It's a great repellent, onions give it an extra boost. Jesus did say;"You'll know them by their fruits." That goes for all bodies. I have a problem with the Pope declaring saints, but to qualify one must first be dead. If one reads all of Paul's Letters each one begins with;"to the saints at". Do you think Paul was writing to the dead? Who gives the Pope the authority., college of cardinals.

Eat garlic with some onions go kiss your loved one, that will let you know how great it repells.
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RichardBurger

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The Church

Many people interpreted the scriptures to have different meanings. This is why there are so many different church denominations and doctrines.

Is Christ divided? NO. Is the "SPIRITUAL CHURCH" divided? NO.

Is man's understanding divided? YES. Are church denominations, organized by men, divided? YES.

What is Religion? It is organized groups of people professing certain religious beliefs and having a hierarchy of leadership. The leadership determines their religious beliefs based upon their interpretation of their reference book writings (the Bible or similar book) and doctrine studies.

The Jewish religion consisted of ceremonies and rituals that people performed. The people had faith (trust) that by performing these ceremonies and rituals they were doing what God wanted them to do.

But there was/is a problem with this; ** ANYONE COULD (CAN) DO THEM **. They don't require a personal commitment of the heart. They don't require a repentant, humble heart. In fact, if you think about it, most all religions in the world teach ceremonies and rituals that people must perform in order to be right with God.

Jesus taught us that God is not pleased with ceremonies and rituals.
(Ps 40:6, Ps 51:16-17, Heb 10:5-6, Heb 10:10-12) God is pleased with a humble, repentant, trusting heart (like a child). Jesus taught us that He, Jesus, wants us to know that He is alive and sits at the right hand of God ready and wanting to hear our prayers (our conversation with Him in our hearts). We must come to Him in a spirit of humility, repentance, and faith (trust), in His love and His promises. He taught us that we must worship Him in the spirit (from the heart). He taught us that if we worship in the spirit He is faithful and will hear and keep us.

There are still those that teach ceremonies and rituals and there are still those that trust in them. However, people must have a personal relationship with Jesus so that, in the Day of Judgment, Jesus will not say depart from me, I never knew you. (John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own, NKJ). He will say this if they trusted in what they thought they could do in ceremonies and rituals to save them instead of going to Jesus in a personal relationship so that He can know and save them. But there are those that think a person can trust in both God and in what they can do. The Jewish nation was carried off into captivity because of this idea.

What is a Christian? A person who is personally trusting that God loves him and sent his son, Jesus Christ, into the world to die on a cross for his sins. A person that trusts God to save and keep him just as Abraham did. (Read Romans 4:1-8) A Christian is a person that has been reborn (filled) with God's Spirit "by God."

What is the Church? The Church is made up of Christians (see above).

John 4:20-24
20 "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
(NKJ)

Matt 15:8
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
(NKJ)

The church has this in common with the Jewish Temple of the O.T. in that it is the dwelling place of God on earth. But it is contrasted with the Temple, a physical, tangible, building made of perishable materials. The church is a structure built of living stones. (spiritual house, 1 Peter 2:4-5)

Therefore, the Church is a spiritual entity and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it. No man is to be considered as head of the Church. The Church's visibility in the world is shown through Christians, individually and as groups. It is not a religious organization, or building, or certain place. The Church exists within the hearts of Christians. Read LUKE, 17:20 "The Kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, Here it is, or there it is, because the kingdom of God "is" within you". God himself controls the Spiritual Church of Jesus Christ.

How can a person become a member of the true Spiritual Church? The answer is very simple. Place faith in what God has done for them.

Rom 10:9-13 ... (NIV)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The church, which is His body;

Scripture Reading:    Ephesians 1:22, 23

Many Christians believe that every time the word "church" appears in Scripture, it refers to the same thing.  This thinking has led to much error and confusion.  The fact is, at least three can be distinguished in Scripture.

The first church we find in the Bible is "the church in the wilderness"  (Act 7: 38).  This was the Old Testament congregation of Israel.  Some would object to calling Israel a church, but this is exactly what the Holy Spirit calls her.  In fact, the Hebrew word for "congregation", found numerous times in the Old Testament, is equivalent to the Greek word for "church" (see Psalm 22:22 & Hebrews 2:12).  Yet, the Old Testament Israelite church is not the church of today.

The next church we read of in Scripture is yet future.  Christ spoke of it in Matthew 16:18 where Christ told Peter, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Gk. 'hades') shall not prevail against it." This church is still future, for it is begun with a resurrected people. The "gates of hades" is not a reference to Satan's forces, as many teach, but a reference to the entrance (and exit) of the place of the dead (cf. Isaiah 38:10 where "gates of the grave" is literally "the gates of sheol" - sheol being the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek hades).

The third church is the church of today. Paul calls it "the Church which is His body" (Ephesians 1:22, 23). His body is not a physical building located on earth. All true believers today are members of the church of His body, and it is the one true Church in this dispensation of grace. I am a member of this Church?
 

jiggyfly

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When you ask someone on earth to pray for you, are you also not putting them between you and God? Do you believe that the souls who now share eternal life with Christ in Heaven are dead?

Thats not the same as praying "to or through" them. Do you pray to your mom or brother?
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Are you saying that God does not use human beings to carry out His will? When the sacred authors wrote the Bible, wasn't God using them to write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? So, when Jesus became a man, how did He come into the world incarnated as a man? Didn't He use a human being? Didn't a human being cooperated with Him to carry out His Will? And are we not called to carry out God's will?

You were referring to redemption, so let's try to stay on track. Salvation does not depend on Mary, John, Peter, Paul or the pope(s). They were in need of salvation just like the rest of us.
 

jiggyfly

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Nowhere in scripture does it say you ahve to follow scripture blindly but people do it. Nowhere ins cripture does it say that communion is symbolic but Evangelicals believe that. Nowhere inscripture does it say Baptisms have to be done by full emersion but many Evangelicals believe it. The thing is, that evangelicals pick and choose which bits of scripture and which bits of tradition to follow so don't pick on Sacramentals for having traditions.

Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

When you ask a saint to pray for you, you don't put them between you and God, you add their prayer to your own. They are in the Church triaumphant, they are not truly deceased because they are alive in the body of Christ. It is like asking a friend to pray for you.

Asking someone to pray for you is far different than prayin to or through someone.

As far as baptism goes, try a word study and see what the Greek words bapto and baptizo mean.

I am not an advocate of religion whether it is from catholicism or protestantism makes no difference to me, I consider them both of carnal origin like any other religion.
 

fivesense

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When you ask someone on earth to pray for you, are you also not putting them between you and God? Do you believe that the souls who now share eternal life with Christ in Heaven are dead?




Are you saying that God does not use human beings to carry out His will? When the sacred authors wrote the Bible, wasn't God using them to write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? So, when Jesus became a man, how did He come into the world incarnated as a man? Didn't He use a human being? Didn't a human being cooperated with Him to carry out His Will? And are we not called to carry out God's will?

Hello Selene. Bless you for your kind soul and patient approach to us who do not subscribe to religious affiliations. There is an operation of God taking place in the earth right now that does not pertain to everyone, the election and justification of the Complement of the Body of Christ. It is not confined to any one church or movement, and its participants have been drawn out from the rest of the world to be separated unto Him for divine service. You may be one of those chosen and elect, and I seek your approval for that reason.

It is important to believe God. His sayings and declarations will stand forever. All else is passing away and will not endure. One of these things that is going to pass away is death.

No one who has died, saint or sinner, has been resurrected from death. The Devil says there is life after death, and he used that lie in Eden to tempt Eve. It is a lie. There are no souls in heaven right now, only One has immortality, the Firstfruits, Christ alone is there with His Father.That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen 1Ti 6:14- 16


Death is death. Resurrection is what the Lord obtained, and we also shall obtain it through Him at His returning to earth to set up His Kingdom. Until that Day of the Lord, no one goes anywhere after death. The body returns to the soil, the spirit returns to God the Father, and the soul goes into oblivion, the unperceived.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Gn 3:19

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ec 3:19-21

Without a body, without God's breath of life, there is no soul. At death, or so God's word says, there is no continuation of life for anyone but the risen Christ of God.
fivesense


 

Templar81

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I know what it means but it doesn't have to be done with full immersion. The Holy land has a very arid climate and we usually assume that it did 2,000 years ago as well.
 

Selene

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Thats not the same as praying "to or through" them. Do you pray to your mom or brother?
rolleyes.gif

Hello Jiggyfly,

According to Webster's Dictionary, the word "pray" actually comes from a latin word that means "to ask." Let's say that you are ill and not feeling well. So, you ask your friends on earth to pray for you. And when your friends pray to God on your behalf, they are asking God to restore your health.

In the same way, a Catholic would also ask a living soul in God's kingdom to pray for them. The Bible says that the prayers of a rightous man is much more powerful (See James 5:16). Well, can you name me one person on this earth that you know is more righteous than a soul in Heaven? There is no one on this earth who is righteous, because we are all sinners. However, our Christians brothers and sisters who are already in Heaven are rightious because there are no sinners in God's kingdom. Therefore, their prayers for us would be very powerful. The Bible also points out that both the living souls and the angels in God's kingdom do carry our prayers to God (Revelations 5:8, 8:3-4).

Both my parents passed away. Do I speak to my mother whom I believe is in Heaven? Yes. Of course, I do. Why? Because Christ promised that those who have faith in God will have eternal life (John 3:15). My brother, I noticed that you haven't answered my question. My question was, "Do you believe that those who share eternal life with Christ in Heaven are dead?"

You were referring to redemption, so let's try to stay on track. Salvation does not depend on Mary, John, Peter, Paul or the pope(s). They were in need of salvation just like the rest of us.

If you had read my post, you will see that I never said that Mary, John, Peter, Paul, or the Pope was our redeemer. This is what I said in my previous post, which somehow you didn't see.

From Selene: First of all the Church recognizes Jesus as our only redeemer—plain and simple.

As you can see in my previous post, I did say that Jesus is our ONLY redeemer. The name Co-redeemer does not mean that Mary was a redeemer. She is in NO WAY a redeemer. The definition of CO-redeemer means that Mary co-operated in God's plan of redemption. How did Mary co-operate with God's plan of redemption? By allowing His Will to be done (Luke 1:38). She co-operated in God's plan of redemption by allowing God's Will to be done so that the Redeemer Jesus Christ would be brought into the world. That is how the Catholic Church defines "Co-redeemer," but this does not mean that Mary was a redeemer. So, I hope that clears up your misconception.

In Christ,
Selene
 

jiggyfly

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Hello Jiggyfly,

According to Webster's Dictionary, the word "pray" actually comes from a latin word that means "to ask." Let's say that you are ill and not feeling well. So, you ask your friends on earth to pray for you. And when your friends pray to God on your behalf, they are asking God to restore your health.

In the same way, a Catholic would also ask a living soul in God's kingdom to pray for them. The Bible says that the prayers of a rightous man is much more powerful (See James 5:16). Well, can you name me one person on this earth that you know is more righteous than a soul in Heaven? There is no one on this earth who is righteous, because we are all sinners. However, our Christians brothers and sisters who are already in Heaven are rightious because there are no sinners in God's kingdom. Therefore, their prayers for us would be very powerful. The Bible also points out that both the living souls and the angels in God's kingdom do carry our prayers to God (Revelations 5:8, 8:3-4).

Both my parents passed away. Do I speak to my mother whom I believe is in Heaven? Yes. Of course, I do. Why? Because Christ promised that those who have faith in God will have eternal life (John 3:15). My brother, I noticed that you haven't answered my question. My question was, "Do you believe that those who share eternal life with Christ in Heaven are dead?"



If you had read my post, you will see that I never said that Mary, John, Peter, Paul, or the Pope was our redeemer. This is what I said in my previous post, which somehow you didn't see.



As you can see in my previous post, I did say that Jesus is our ONLY redeemer. The name Co-redeemer does not mean that Mary was a redeemer. She is in NO WAY a redeemer. The definition of CO-redeemer means that Mary co-operated in God's plan of redemption. How did Mary co-operate with God's plan of redemption? By allowing His Will to be done (Luke 1:38). She co-operated in God's plan of redemption by allowing God's Will to be done so that the Redeemer Jesus Christ would be brought into the world. That is how the Catholic Church defines "Co-redeemer," but this does not mean that Mary was a redeemer. So, I hope that clears up your misconception.

In Christ,
Selene



Well I guess I can add the catholic definition of "co-redeemer" to the list of things I disagree with catholicism on.