Hell Fire

BARNEY BRIGHT · Oct 20, 2020

kcnalp said:
You're calling Jesus a liar?
John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Perish means what Kcnalp? Doesn't it mean, be destroyed, which is the opposite of everlasting life. Only the faithful will gain everlasting life when resurrected from the dead if they accepted Jesus as their savior. However while they wait for that resurrection they don't exist until resurrected back to life. After Jesus died for the sins of the world of mankind those who were Jesus Apostles and disciples when they died were not resurrected back to life immediately After they died but remained in condition of death until the schedule time of the resurrection which as the scriptures show would start at the second presence of Jesus.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Perish means what Kcnalp? Doesn't it mean, be destroyed, which is the opposite of everlasting life. Only the faithful will gain everlasting life when resurrected from the dead if they accepted Jesus as their savior. However while they wait for that resurrection they don't exist until resurrected back to life. After Jesus died for the sins of the world of mankind those who were Jesus Apostles and disciples when they died were not resurrected back to life immediately After they died but remained in condition of death until the schedule time of the resurrection which as the scriptures show would start at the second presence of Jesus.

No Scripture? Of course not. Even the NWT says you're wrong.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Oct 20, 2020

kcnalp said:
That's a lie.

No kcnalp it's not a lie. You're denying death so you're denying Scripture and calling God a liar.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
No kcnalp it's not a lie. You're denying death so you're denying Scripture and calling God a liar.

Another JW lie! What's your proof? Do you know what God said will happen to "all liars"? I doubt if you even know. Did Kingdom Hall edit that too?
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Death means cease to exist.

Have you ever read the Bible? Get your nose out of the Watchtower and read the Bible.
Revelation 20:12 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

I don't think these are "zombies".

Butch5 · Oct 20, 2020

Taken said:
Luke 16:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;

Beggar- what specifically died?
Beggar- what specifically was carried to Abraham's bosom?
rich man- what Specifically died?
rich man- what specifically was buried?

[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

rich man- what Specifically in Hell, saw Abraham afar off?

[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

rich man- what specifically was feeling the Torments of a flame?

[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime

To rich man- lifetime of what specifically?

receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Why is the rich man and Abraham separated?

[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How is Abraham, (dead and Buried) and a rich man (dead and Buried) having a conversation?

How can a Dead and Buried rich man- in Hell-
See, Hear, Speak, Feel, Smell ?

Can you answer the Questions?

It's funny, you want me to answer these questions when you've ignored all mine. But, I'll gladly answer the questions later when I have time.

Taken · Oct 20, 2020

Butch5 said:
I don't say the New Testament take precedence over the Old.

Dont think I have heard anyone claim that...
But addressing that point- for myself- I would say the NT does take precedence over the OT.

Reason being-
• regarding Prophecy.
The OT is full of Prophecy.
The NT is full of OT Prophecy Fulfilled.

The OT Applies, To individuals Still Waiting for OT Prophecy To BE fulfilled.
The NT Applies, To individuals WHO believe Jesus IS the Christ Messiah, and fulfilled OT Prophecy, AND- Additionally...

Offered- (through Jesus, Son of Man)
• A (God Acceptable) spiritual BODILY Death WAY, (while the Body remains Living.)
• A (God Acceptable) spiritual Salvation of ones soul WAY, (while the Body remains Living.)
• A (God Acceptable) spiritual Quickening (rebirth) Of ones spirit WAY, (while the Body remains Living.)
• That ^ Offering ... is Precisely what makes The NT take Precedence OVER the OT.

And it Depends on WHAT an Individual believes and the OFFERING the individual chooses TO Accept or Not.

Regarding- precepts in OT- profitable to All men, regardless of Generation.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

kcnalp-
Prophecy Foretold -

Psalms 78:
[2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Prophecy Fulfilled -

Matt 13:
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables,

Why? To fulfill Prophecy.
Why?
Knowing from Scriptures; there "were street Preachers" already Preaching.
Jesus ... quickly set Himself APART, from other "street Preachers", BY His "method" of Preaching in A Parable Style.

Why? Scripture tells is Why a "Parable" method.

A Parable in mans Mindful Understanding, is a "MADE UP story" ( can be a fabricated Lie ), to make a Truthful Point.

A Parable in a mans Spiritual Understanding, is Jesus IS the TRUTH, everything, every word He says IS TRUE.

• Revealing IS...Jesus Spoke To Crowds, and the Crowds were individuals OF EVERY flavor-
Believers IN Jesus, curious, doubters, deniers.
But yet- ONE speech For All listeners IN the Crowds.

Jesus revealed-

Matt 13:
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matt 13:
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Scripture reveals-
Matt 13:

[2] And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the Multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

THAT Reveals...^ it depends on WHO Jesus was Speaking TO reveals IF Something was a Parable Or Not.

IOW- it does Not matter IF "Parable" is mentioned every time IN Scripture-
• When Jesus was speaking TO a Crowd / Multitudes, it IS a Parable.

Luke 16:
[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

^ Jesus exclusively speaking TO His Disciples.

An Intrusion revealed --->
Luke 16:
[14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

^ The dynamics instantly Changed.
Now - the Size (multitudes/ Large) of the crowd doesn't matter.

Jesus WAS Speaking TO specific, His Disciples.
Covetous men (Pharisees, who Did NOT believe Jesus ) were evesdropping, wanting TO Hear what Jesus was saying TO His Disciples (who believed Him).

The dynamics of WHO was Listening TO Jesus Changed. Believers and Doubting Deniers...
(Just as it parallel Larger Crowds).
( with a Twist- deniers of Large Crowds, walked away, stopped Listening.
The Pharisees- "derided" Jesus...which is Contempt and ridicule....AND WHAT Jesus DID....was a Lesson FOR the Disciples Observing...TO mimic, when They would be sent out to Preach...in how to Respond to Listeners WHO WANT to Hear and Believe...that there will also be Covetous People intervening, with Objections and ridicule. )

So Jesus Response...TO the Pharisees?
Matt 13:
[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
[17] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
[18] Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

And THEN? The Disciples AND Pharisees NOW Revealed a MIXED Crowd of Listeners...(believers AND deniers)...
• Jesus Continues Speaking...in the Same Method (Parable), as every Time He Spoke TO a Crowd OF Believers AND Deniers.

IMO according to Scripture; I believe Luke 16: 19-31, was Jesus Speaking to A Mixed group (believers and deniers)...thus What He Spoke was A Parable.
Resulting in the Same conclusion...

Believers- Believe Jesus IS the Truth- and Every Word out of Jesus' Mouth is True.
Deniers- Believe Jesus was simply a story-Teller of Fiction, and thus they miss OUT on the Mysteries being Factually Revealed.

Glory to God,
Taken

BARNEY BRIGHT · Oct 20, 2020

kcnalp said:
Another JW lie! What's your proof? Do you know what God said will happen to "all liars"? I doubt if you even know. Did Kingdom Hall edit that too?
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

You're the one who's saying people continue to exist after they pass away. You're the one who's saying a person still has consciousness after they pass away. You're the one saying things like that, which means you're saying they're still living, just in a another plain of existence.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Oct 20, 2020

kcnalp said:
Have you ever read the Bible? Get your nose out of the Watchtower and read the Bible.
Revelation 20:12 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

I don't think these are "zombies".

How unreasonable is it that bring up zombies on this post. How about keeping your mind out of the TV and movies. Also keep one thing in mind and that's Revelation was spoken to John in signs, which means a lot of revelation is symbolic. You don't take it literally.
Notice, in Revelation 20:12 that the writer, the Christian apostle John, does not say that those resurrected are either good or bad. He does not say, ‘I saw the dead, the good and the bad,’ but says: “I saw the dead, the great and the small.” In other words, people of all ranks of life. But whether great or small, they all came in for a judgment before the throne of the Judge of all creation, the Most High and Almighty God. The point is these people have been brought back from non-existence to existence, it's called a resurrection from death back to life

Taken · Oct 20, 2020

Butch5 said:
It's funny, you want me to answer these questions when you've ignored all mine. But, I'll gladly answer the questions later when I have time.

Your questions deflected to other topics, without concluding;
The differences between A Body "OF" a man and A Living soul "OF" a man.

OT men were learning AND some Learned the Differences BETWEEN A Body OF a man and the Living soul OF A Man.

OT Scripture reveals SOME understood the Living SOUL Leaves the Dying Body.

Also...that IF the Living Soul Returned TO a Dead Body...the Dead Body would RESUME Living.

Some OT men understood BODILY Death OF a man's BODY, was Appointed to All men...and Salvation OF a man's soul, was Necessary...FOR a Believer TO Enter Gods Kingdom and He Forever BE their God.

What WAS a Mystery...in the OT among men- WAS...where Do Departed Living Souls...GO and DO. <--- THAT was Beginning to Be Revealed to Some, but not All.

Once Jesus Arrived ON Earth...Secrets, with-held knowledge, Mysteries of Old, FROM OT men...WERE Revealed..BY Jesus...TO: anyone willing TO HEAR.

WHERE ... Living Souls OF men, Departed OUT of Dying/Dead Body's OF men;
GO
And WHAT ... Departed Living souls OUT OF dead Body's OF men DO
Was Expressly Revealed BY Gods TRUTH, Jesus.

Accepting Jesus, IS Gods Truth...
Accepting God Truth...
• IS Still like from the Beginning-
An Individual man Freewill, To Believe OR Reject.

You appear TO Believe IN your Heart...
Jesus IS the Truth...
However BY what you SAY, your WAY, appears to BE the WAY of Carnal (OT limited Understanding).

1) First you Reject Living Souls Depart Out of Dying/Dead Body's.
• Even though I gave you Scriptural Evidence, that IS True.

2) Secondly you have given NO Answer to WHAT Specifically OF Abraham, OF the rich man IS having a conversation in Hell.

My questions to you, were specific, for you to Give...an Explanation ...
Luke 16:19-31

Body's of Two men (Abraham & A rich man) are Clearly Scripturally revealed;
BODILY Dead and Buried...

Clearly, I presumed...you Knew Men DO NOT bury Dead Body's IN Hell.

But YET- IN Hell... Something identified with Father Abraham's Title and Name and Something identified by circumstance and Place (rich man, Body Dead and Buried, now the rich man IN Hell)...
• Are Having A Conversation IN Hell.

What Exactly OF Abraham AND OF the rich man..
IS HAVING A Conversation?

You Avoid "Point Blank" answering this Question...

Why?

Glory to God,
Taken

Butch5 · Oct 20, 2020

Taken said:
Dont think I have heard anyone claim that...
But addressing that point- for myself- I would say the NT does take precedence over the OT.

Reason being-
• regarding Prophecy.
The OT is full of Prophecy.
The NT is full of OT Prophecy Fulfilled.

The OT Applies, To individuals Still Waiting for OT Prophecy To BE fulfilled.
The NT Applies, To individuals WHO believe Jesus IS the Christ Messiah, and fulfilled OT Prophecy, AND- Additionally...

Offered- (through Jesus, Son of Man)
• A (God Acceptable) spiritual BODILY Death WAY, (while the Body remains Living.)
• A (God Acceptable) spiritual Salvation of ones soul WAY, (while the Body remains Living.)
• A (God Acceptable) spiritual Quickening (rebirth) Of ones spirit WAY, (while the Body remains Living.)
• That ^ Offering ... is Precisely what makes The NT take Precedence OVER the OT.

And it Depends on WHAT an Individual believes and the OFFERING the individual chooses TO Accept or Not.

Regarding- precepts in OT- profitable to All men, regardless of Generation.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

kcnalp-
Prophecy Foretold -

Psalms 78:
[2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Prophecy Fulfilled -

Matt 13:
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables,

Why? To fulfill Prophecy.
Why?
Knowing from Scriptures; there "were street Preachers" already Preaching.
Jesus ... quickly set Himself APART, from other "street Preachers", BY His "method" of Preaching in A Parable Style.

Why? Scripture tells is Why a "Parable" method.

A Parable in mans Mindful Understanding, is a "MADE UP story" ( can be a fabricated Lie ), to make a Truthful Point.

A Parable in a mans Spiritual Understanding, is Jesus IS the TRUTH, everything, every word He says IS TRUE.

• Revealing IS...Jesus Spoke To Crowds, and the Crowds were individuals OF EVERY flavor-
Believers IN Jesus, curious, doubters, deniers.
But yet- ONE speech For All listeners IN the Crowds.

Jesus revealed-

Matt 13:
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matt 13:
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Scripture reveals-
Matt 13:

[2] And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the Multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

THAT Reveals...^ it depends on WHO Jesus was Speaking TO reveals IF Something was a Parable Or Not.

IOW- it does Not matter IF "Parable" is mentioned every time IN Scripture-
• When Jesus was speaking TO a Crowd / Multitudes, it IS a Parable.

Luke 16:
[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

^ Jesus exclusively speaking TO His Disciples.

An Intrusion revealed --->
Luke 16:
[14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

^ The dynamics instantly Changed.
Now - the Size (multitudes/ Large) of the crowd doesn't matter.

Jesus WAS Speaking TO specific, His Disciples.
Covetous men (Pharisees, who Did NOT believe Jesus ) were evesdropping, wanting TO Hear what Jesus was saying TO His Disciples (who believed Him).

The dynamics of WHO was Listening TO Jesus Changed. Believers and Doubting Deniers...
(Just as it parallel Larger Crowds).
( with a Twist- deniers of Large Crowds, walked away, stopped Listening.
The Pharisees- "derided" Jesus...which is Contempt and ridicule....AND WHAT Jesus DID....was a Lesson FOR the Disciples Observing...TO mimic, when They would be sent out to Preach...in how to Respond to Listeners WHO WANT to Hear and Believe...that there will also be Covetous People intervening, with Objections and ridicule. )

So Jesus Response...TO the Pharisees?
Matt 13:
[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
[17] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
[18] Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

And THEN? The Disciples AND Pharisees NOW Revealed a MIXED Crowd of Listeners...(believers AND deniers)...
• Jesus Continues Speaking...in the Same Method (Parable), as every Time He Spoke TO a Crowd OF Believers AND Deniers.

IMO according to Scripture; I believe Luke 16: 19-31, was Jesus Speaking to A Mixed group (believers and deniers)...thus What He Spoke was A Parable.
Resulting in the Same conclusion...

Believers- Believe Jesus IS the Truth- and Every Word out of Jesus' Mouth is True.
Deniers- Believe Jesus was simply a story-Teller of Fiction, and thus they miss OUT on the Mysteries being Factually Revealed.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well, if you reject the OT you have nothing. The Christian's hope comes from the OT. The apostles quote extensively from the OT. Jesus quoted extensively from the OT. So, it would seem that there is much there that they thought was really important.

Now, had you said, the new covenant takes precedence over the old covenant I would have agreed with you. But, you didnt say that and neither did i in the post you quoted. There's a big difference between the old covenant and the old testament. The old covenant was for the Jews. However without the Old Testament you don't have anything, because the new testament is the fulfilling of the old. However, both testaments are the record of how God is fulfilling His promise to Abraham.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
You're the one who's saying people continue to exist after they pass away.

Well yes, I've read the Bible. You should try it before you "cease to exist".
Revelation 20:5 (NKJV)
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You're the one who's saying a person still has consciousness after they pass away.

I bet Kingdom Hall never told you this.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

You're the one saying things like that, which means you're saying they're still living, just in a another plain of existence.

Yes, the rich man died but was very much alive.

The rich man also died
being in torments
he cried
I am tormented in this flame
I am tormented in this flame
this place of torment

Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Butch5 · Oct 20, 2020

Butch5 said:
Well, if you reject the OT you have nothing. The Christian's hope comes from the OT. The apostles quote extensively from the OT. Jesus quoted extensively from the OT. So, it would seem that there is much there that they thought was really important.

Now, had you said, the new covenant takes precedence over the old covenant I would have agreed with you. But, you didnt say that and neither did i in the post you quoted. There's a big difference between the old covenant and the old testament. The old covenant was for the Jews. However without the Old Testament you don't have anything, because the new testament is the fulfilling of the old. However, both testaments are the record of how God is fulfilling His promise to Abraham.

I told you I'd answer them when I had time. I'm working at the moment. However, here again, you ask questions but refuse to answer any. I gave you a bunch of questions specifically directed at the parable. Will you answer them?

I'll answer your main question now though. Nothing of Abraham or the Rich Man was speaking. It was a parable, not a literal event. Secondly, yes, bodies are buried in Hades. The Rich Man was in Hades. Hades in Scripture is the grave. Just like Knapp you conflate Hades and Gehenna because you're reading only from English and the translation is poor.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
How unreasonable is it that bring up zombies on this post. How about keeping your mind out of the TV and movies. Also keep one thing in mind and that's Revelation was spoken to John in signs, which means a lot of revelation is symbolic. You don't take it literally.

Wow, that means you're gonna miss all the great parts!

Revelation 21:2-27 (NKJV)
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
Too bad you won't be with God like us Bible believers.
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

It's gonna be GREAT for us Bible believers!

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

There's that part you don't like.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.
18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
Sorry you won't get to walk on the street of pure gold. It's gonna be GREAT!!!

Notice, in Revelation 20:12 that the writer, the Christian apostle John, does not say that those resurrected are either good or bad. He does not say, ‘I saw the dead, the good and the bad,’ but says: “I saw the dead, the great and the small.” In other words, people of all ranks of life. But whether great or small, they all came in for a judgment before the throne of the Judge of all creation, the Most High and Almighty God. The point is these people have been brought back from non-existence to existence, it's called a resurrection from death back to life

You're spewing Watchtower propaganda.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

Butch5 said:
Well, if you reject the OT you have nothing. The Christian's hope comes from the OT. The apostles quote extensively from the OT. Jesus quoted extensively from the OT. So, it would seem that there is much there that they thought was really important.

Now, had you said, the new covenant takes precedence over the old covenant I would have agreed with you. But, you didnt say that and neither did i in the post you quoted. There's a big difference between the old covenant and the old testament. The old covenant was for the Jews. However without the Old Testament you don't have anything, because the new testament is the fulfilling of the old. However, both testaments are the record of how God is fulfilling His promise to Abraham.

OT does not overrule NT. That is not rejecting OT.

kcnalp · Oct 20, 2020

Butch5 said:
The Rich Man was in Hades. Hades in Scriputre is the grave. Just like Knapp you conflate Hades and Gehenna because you're reading only from English and the translation is poor.

Our English Bibles say you're wrong. How long have you been a Greek expert? Who taught you Greek? Kingdom Hall maybe?

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Taken · Oct 20, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
You're the one who's saying people continue to exist after they pass away. You're the one who's saying a person still has consciousness after they pass away. You're the one saying things like that, which means you're saying they're still living, just in a another plain of existence.

It is NOT About "PEOPLE".
It IS ABOUT "Specific things" that APPLY to a Person!

In Brief:

A Body- every person Has A Body-
All Body's Shall Die.

A Living soul- every person ever Born Alive- Has Living soul...NO Soul has Been Judged!

Living Souls Departed out from Dead Body's, continue Living- UNTIL Judgement.
-some will remain Living...
-for some...the LIFE IN the soul will return to God...and their body and soul destroyed.

Spirits of man-
Some spirits of men will die with their body.
Some will be Born Again into Eternal LIFE- and Go to Heaven, Directle as their body is physically dying.

A person is the WHOLE OF a Man...Body, soul, spirit...
Each part of a man is affected Differently WHEN A man's body physically dies.

Taken · Oct 20, 2020

Butch5 said:
Well, if you reject the OT you have nothing.

Well, I didn't say I did.
Irrelavent remark.

The Christian's hope comes from the OT. The apostles quote extensively from the OT. Jesus quoted extensively from the OT. So, it would seem that there is much there that they thought was really important.

Elaborating on an irrelevant point- Deflective.

Now, had you said, the new covenant takes precedence over the old covenant I would have agreed with you. But, you didnt say that and neither did i in the post you quoted. There's a big difference between the old covenant and the old testament. The old covenant was for the Jews. However without the Old Testament you don't have anything, because the new testament is the fulfilling of the old. However, both testaments are the record of how God is fulfilling His promise to Abraham.

No there is not a Big Difference Between SAYING "Old Covenant or Old Testament"... or Saying "New Testament OT New Covenant"....

Any student OF Scripture should Know...
A Testament, Old or New is specific where, Knowledge IS Revealed.
Knowledge About God, About mankind, About Laws, About Statutes, About Covenants, About Prophecy, About Fulfillment...etc.

I specifically said my post was IN REGARD TO... Prophecy and Fulfillment.

Why recapitulate my post wrongly and imply and respond as if I was speaking About Covenants?

BARNEY BRIGHT · Oct 20, 2020

Kcnalp said:
bet Kingdom Hall never told you this.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.[/Quote\]

These scriptures are expressing Apostle Paul earnest desire to take up heavenly life, Paul showed that it was not death itself that was wanted by spirit-begotten Christians, nor to lie “naked” in death, but the ‘putting on’ of a heavenly body in order to be at “home with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:1-8; compare 2Peter 1:13-15 .) Paul knew however that the putting on this heavenly life this heavenly body, would not happen until Jesus Christ second presence. Until that time of Jesus second presence all those who die faithful will be in hell(Hades) awaiting a resurrection to begin at the second presence of Jesus Christ.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Oct 20, 2020

kcnalp said:
Well yes, I've read the Bible. You should try it before you "cease to exist".
Revelation 20:5 (NKJV)
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I bet Kingdom Hall never told you this.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Yes, the rich man died but was very much alive.

The rich man also died
being in torments
he cried
I am tormented in this flame
I am tormented in this flame
this place of torment

Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

At Revelation 20:5 In his command to Adam, God implied that if Adam obeyed, he would not die. (Genesis 2: 17) So with obedient mankind, when man’s last enemy, death, is brought to nothing, there will be no sin working in their bodies to bring death. To time indefinite they will not need to die. (1 Corinthians 15:26) This bringing of death to nothing takes place at the end of Christ’s reign, which the book of Revelation shows is 1,000 years long. Here it is said of those becoming kings and priests with Christ that they “came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” “The rest of the dead” not coming to life “until the thousand years were ended” must be those alive at the end of the thousand years, but before Satan is released from the abyss and brings the decisive test on mankind. By the end of the thousand years, people on earth will have reached human perfection, being in the condition that Adam and Eve were in before they sinned. Now they will really have life in perfection. Those who thereafter pass the test when Satan is released for a short time from the abyss will be able to enjoy that life forever. Revelation 20: 4-10

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