Hell Fire

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Kcnalp Quoted Luke 16:22-28:
The rich man also died
and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'[/Quote\]

Taking this scripture literally disregards such clear and repeated Biblical statements as: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4,20) And: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.(Ecclesiastes 9:5) Clearly these statements do not support the idea of torment for “lost souls” in a fiery hell.

If we take Jesus’ words literally, we would have to draw other conclusions that would make the illustration strange indeed. These include: That those enjoying celestial happiness(those who are in heaven) are in a position to see and speak to those suffering torment in Hades. That the water adhering to one’s fingertip is not evaporated by the fire of Hades. And, that, although the torment of Hades is great, a mere drop of water would bring relief to the sufferer.

To whom was Jesus talking? At Luke 16:14 we are told: “Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him.”

Since Jesus spoke in the hearing of the Pharisees, was he relating an actual case or was he simply using an illustration? Concerning Jesus’ method of teaching the crowds, we read: “Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.” (Matthew 13:34 ) Accordingly, the account about the rich man and Lazarus is an illustration.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Well, I didn't say I did.
Irrelavent remark.



Elaborating on an irrelevant point- Deflective.



No there is not a Big Difference Between SAYING "Old Covenant or Old Testament"... or Saying "New Testament OT New Covenant"....

Any student OF Scripture should Know...
A Testament, Old or New is specific where, Knowledge IS Revealed.
Knowledge About God, About mankind, About Laws, About Statutes, About Covenants, About Prophecy, About Fulfillment...etc.

I specifically said my post was IN REGARD TO... Prophecy and Fulfillment.

Why recapitulate my post wrongly and imply and respond as if I was speaking About Covenants?

Because the post you replied to was referring to testamtents. You go off on these trabbit trails and then expect people to follow you. My post said that the NT didn't take presence over the OT. The Old Testament is the 39 books given to Israel. The New Testament is the 27 books written after Christ came. The Old Covenant is the Mosaic Law, the New Covenant is that which is entered into by faith.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Taken said:
Living soul- every person ever Born Alive- Has Living soul.[/Quote\]
The scriptures say, "we are souls" not that we "have souls." At Genesis 2:7 it tells us that the combination of God taking dust from the ground forming man and blowing the breath of life in man nostrils that man became a living soul. The Bible does not say that "man received a soul," but that he "became" a living soul.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Taken said:
Spirits of man-
Some spirits of men will die with their body.
Some will be Born Again into Eternal LIFE- and Go to Heaven, Directle as their body is physically dying.[/Quote\]

Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for “they all have but one spirit [weruʹach], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast." So the spirit in man is the same Spirit that's in animals. This means that the spirit in man is impersonal like the animals. The spirit in man isn't a person.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Butch5

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Your questions deflected to other topics, without concluding;
The differences between A Body "OF" a man and A Living soul "OF" a man.

OT men were learning AND some Learned the Differences BETWEEN A Body OF a man and the Living soul OF A Man.

OT Scripture reveals SOME understood the Living SOUL Leaves the Dying Body.

Also...that IF the Living Soul Returned TO a Dead Body...the Dead Body would RESUME Living.

Some OT men understood BODILY Death OF a man's BODY, was Appointed to All men...and Salvation OF a man's soul, was Necessary...FOR a Believer TO Enter Gods Kingdom and He Forever BE their God.

What WAS a Mystery...in the OT among men- WAS...where Do Departed Living Souls...GO and DO. <--- THAT was Beginning to Be Revealed to Some, but not All.

Once Jesus Arrived ON Earth...Secrets, with-held knowledge, Mysteries of Old, FROM OT men...WERE Revealed..BY Jesus...TO: anyone willing TO HEAR.

WHERE ... Living Souls OF men, Departed OUT of Dying/Dead Body's OF men;
GO
And WHAT ... Departed Living souls OUT OF dead Body's OF men DO
Was Expressly Revealed BY Gods TRUTH, Jesus.

Accepting Jesus, IS Gods Truth...
Accepting God Truth...
• IS Still like from the Beginning-
An Individual man Freewill, To Believe OR Reject.

You appear TO Believe IN your Heart...
Jesus IS the Truth...
However BY what you SAY, your WAY, appears to BE the WAY of Carnal (OT limited Understanding).

1) First you Reject Living Souls Depart Out of Dying/Dead Body's.
• Even though I gave you Scriptural Evidence, that IS True.

2) Secondly you have given NO Answer to WHAT Specifically OF Abraham, OF the rich man IS having a conversation in Hell.

My questions to you, were specific, for you to Give...an Explanation ...
Luke 16:19-31

Body's of Two men (Abraham & A rich man) are Clearly Scripturally revealed;
BODILY Dead and Buried...

Clearly, I presumed...you Knew Men DO NOT bury Dead Body's IN Hell.

But YET- IN Hell... Something identified with Father Abraham's Title and Name and Something identified by circumstance and Place (rich man, Body Dead and Buried, now the rich man IN Hell)...
• Are Having A Conversation IN Hell.

What Exactly OF Abraham AND OF the rich man..
IS HAVING A Conversation?

You Avoid "Point Blank" answering this Question...

Why?

Glory to God,
Taken

Your first statement makes a distinction that is not in Scripture. There is not a body of Man and a living soul of man. AS I've pointed out several times now, the man, which you agreed was the body, BECAME a living soul. The living soul is the BODY. You're trying to make the Scriptures fit what you believe. They don't. They don't fit with Greek philosophical thought. The idea that man can live apart from the body is not a Biblical concept, it is a Greek one.

So, you're basically dismissing the OT as Kcnalp did. You wouldn't have to do that if you weren't trying to make the Bible fit with Greek Philosophical thought. The Old and New Testaments agree wholeheartedly. Man is a living soul. That soul includes a body. Without a body there is no soul.

As I said before, the word soul is used two ways in the Bible. It is used concretely of a living being and it is used abstractly of life. A living soul doesn't leave the body. when life leaves the body, the man is dead. The breath or spirit returns to God. I've already explained this. The body and the breath or spirit of God together BECAME a living soul. Scripture tells us that when a man dies, God's breath or spirit returns to Him and the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left. The soul ceases to exist as it's components have separated. If one has 2 molecules of hydrogen and one molecule of oxygen, they have two different elements. If they combine those elements the elements BECOME water. If one removes either the hydrogen or the oxygen molecules, they no longer have water. The water has ceased to exist. That's how it works.

What I reject is your idea that a soul lives apart from the body. And, no you didn't give Scripture that shows that.

Regarding bodies in hell. The Rich Man is in Hades. Bodies go to Hades.

And <1> see life with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which are given thee under the sun: for that is thy portion in thy life, and in thy labour wherein thou labourest under the sun. {1) So the Heb.}
10 Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do <1> with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest. (Eccl. 9:9-10 LXE)

The word translated device means reasoning. Now tell me, how is the Rich Man literally having a conversation when the Scriptures tell us clearly that there is no work, reasoning, knowledge, or wisdom in Hades? Hades is where the Rich Man is.

So, in the parable it is the bodies of the Rich Man and Abraham conversing. Notice, they are in Hades, the grave. What goes in the grave, the body. The Rich Man has a body. He has eyes, he has a tongue. Abraham has a bosom. Lazarus has fingers. These are all body parts. Where does the body go? Into the grave. What is the grave? It is Hades. Where is the Rich Man? He's in Hades.

However, apart from the parable the Rich Man and Abraham are not conversing. It's a story.

I avoid point blank questions? Really, how is that when I told you I'd answer them when I had time? But who has already avoided point blank questions? I gave you a whole list of them and you didn't answer one. I asked you to explain how your interpretation of the parable fits the context in which it is found. You didn't do that either. Those questions are still awaiting answers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BARNEY BRIGHT

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Disagree

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, [/B] but a body hast thou prepared me:[/B]
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through theoffering of the
body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

You disagree with Scripture? Isaiah plainly said that Christ poured out His soul unto death. Your posting of Hebrews 10 proves my point that a soul requires a body. It was Christ's body that was the sacrifice. That proves that a soul requires a body. It also proves that souls can die.



Body's are Mortal. They die a mortal Physical death.

Soul's are not Mortal. They can not die a mortal Physical death.

Death, like many words in Scripture-
Have TWO meanings / and Understandings.

Death "understanding", according to a man's Natural understanding- is Succession of Life.
No Life= Dead!

Death "understanding", according to Spiritual Understanding- IS Separation From God.

A man's Body- without God, is Spiritually Dead.
A man's Soul- without God, is Spiritually Dead.
A man's Spirit- Without God is Spiritually Dead.

You're wrong. Souls are mortal. I've given you several passages that show souls can die. Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. No one, but the Father has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Also, you don't get to make up your own definitions. Nowhere is death defined as separation from God. Again, that just people trying to make the Scriptures fit with Greek philosophical thought.

A Saved Living soul- Shall Forever Keep Gods Life IN it.
An unsaved Living soul- IS SENT to Hell, when it's Body dies. The soul in Hell sees, feels, hears, speaks, smells...the Torments of Hell.

An unsaved soul experiences, exactly what the man Chose in his BODILY LIFE- to Be Separated From God. But God has not Departed His LIFE from that Soul- Precisely So that Living Soul Can Experience Separation From God.

While that Soul was IN the Man's BODY and the Body ALIVE...that man Experienced: Beautiful Things ON Earth;
Comfortable feeling, pleasant smells, beautiful things to see, Conversation, beautiful sounds...YET REJECTED God, who created beautiful things.
............
A Formed Body is Gods Creation.
Formed with Physical:
Skin, Eyes, Ears, Nose, Mouth....
Awesome----except in Creation...
NONE of those things (senses) Functioned!

UNTIL- God blew His Life into that Body.

You shoul have learned what was NOT before Known....the soul IS ALIVE Senses....
(Luke 16:19-31)

Body's are dead and buried.
The soul, With Gods Life continues Living-
(With God or without God)
With God, in Comfort.
Without God, in Torments.
And that Living soul continues with all the Senses, that were Alive, (IN the Body) are still Alive in the soul, outside of the Body.

AFTER Judgement-
Spiritual Living Saved Souls will be UNITED with its IMMORTAL raised body.
Spiritual Living Unsaved Souls will be Judged Against God-
Then Gods Life will Return To Him...
And the Body AND Soul OF that man...
Destroyed.

The Body does NOT become the soul.
The Soul does NOT become the Body.
A Body and Living Soul in a man is an ALIVE man.
A Body without a Living Soul, is a physically dead man's body.
Souls are not from Dust, do not die and return to Dust.

Jesus taught TO save Your Soul.
Your body will die, no matter what.
Body's and souls are not the same thing.



Disagree.

The Body doesn't "Form" anything.
The Body is the Form of a man.
The Soul is Life from God, that causes your Body's Senses to Function.

When the Body dies...the BLOOD (LIFE OF the Body) ceases; the brain, organs, heart, tissues, bones, completely Stop functioning-
It rots. The Body knows nothing.

The Living soul...departs the Body.

Any person in Scripture "raised" from the dead...Is Because the man's soul Re-Enters the body.

And even people TODAY- are clinically pronounced Mortally BODILY Dead...and then BODILY revive.
But yet, they speak of things they Saw during that time, they were BODILY dead.

How are Two BODILY Dead and buried men Having a Conversation? (Luke 16- 19-31)

Can you answer?

Sorry, but that's not what the Scriptures say. The body, the man, BECAME a living soul. It doesn't say a soul was put into the man or into the body. It says the body BECAME a living soul.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Luke 16:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;


Beggar- what specifically died?
Beggar- what specifically was carried to Abraham's bosom?
rich man- what Specifically died?
rich man- what specifically was buried?

[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

rich man- what Specifically in Hell, saw Abraham afar off?

[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

rich man- what specifically was feeling the Torments of a flame?

[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime

To rich man- lifetime of what specifically?

receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Why is the rich man and Abraham separated?

[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How is Abraham, (dead and Buried) and a rich man (dead and Buried) having a conversation?

How can a Dead and Buried rich man- in Hell-
See, Hear, Speak, Feel, Smell ?

Can you answer the Questions?

In the parable Lazarus and the Rich Man's bodies were carried to Hades.

the Rich Man's eyes (body) saw Abraham afar off.

The Rich Man's body felt the torments.

Lifetime of his body

They were separated because God has set a time that the priesthood will be in exile. Paul calls this the time of the Gentiles.

They're having a conversation because it's a parable.

He can speak because it's a parable. In the real world the dead can't speak.
 

kcnalp

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2020
7,326
1,782
113
Indianapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
At Revelation 20:5 In his command to Adam, God implied that if Adam obeyed, he would not die. (Genesis 2: 17) So with obedient mankind, when man’s last enemy, death, is brought to nothing, there will be no sin working in their bodies to bring death. To time indefinite they will not need to die. (1 Corinthians 15:26) This bringing of death to nothing takes place at the end of Christ’s reign, which the book of Revelation shows is 1,000 years long. Here it is said of those becoming kings and priests with Christ that they “came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” “The rest of the dead” not coming to life “until the thousand years were ended” must be those alive at the end of the thousand years, but before Satan is released from the abyss and brings the decisive test on mankind. By the end of the thousand years, people on earth will have reached human perfection, being in the condition that Adam and Eve were in before they sinned. Now they will really have life in perfection. Those who thereafter pass the test when Satan is released for a short time from the abyss will be able to enjoy that life forever. Revelation 20: 4-10
You made the insane comment "death means cease to exist". The entire Bible says you're wrong but Kingdom Hall tells you you're right.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You made the insane comment "death means cease to exist". The entire Bible says you're wrong but Kingdom Hall tells you you're right.

You're like a person saying gravity doesn't exist, despite all the evidence that proves gravity exists. What I mean by that is it's you and those who believe as you do that are wrong, the scriptures prove that, not the kingdom Hall. It's not JW fault you have no faith in the scriptures or the truth that's in the scriptures. You're the one who's ignoring the scriptural evidence that we don't have consciousness when we die. We're non-existent when we're dead. Resurrection means to stand up again among the living.
 

kcnalp

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2020
7,326
1,782
113
Indianapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You're like a person saying gravity doesn't exist, despite all the evidence that proves gravity exists. What I mean by that is it's you and those who believe as you do that are wrong, the scriptures prove that, not the kingdom Hall. It's not JW fault you have no faith in the scriptures or the truth that's in the scriptures. You're the one who's ignoring the scriptural evidence that we don't have consciousness when we die. We're non-existent when we're dead. Resurrection means to stand up again among the living.
Jesus died. Did He "cease to exist"? You have no Scripture. Death does not mean "cease to exist". It's totally ridiculous to say the wicked who die will be created again so they can be punished. Are you saying God is so wicked that He would actually recreate the wicked so He can burn them alive?
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because the post you replied to was referring to testamtents. You go off on these trabbit trails and then expect people to follow you. My post said that the NT didn't take presence over the OT. The Old Testament is the 39 books given to Israel. The New Testament is the 27 books written after Christ came. The Old Covenant is the Mosaic Law, the New Covenant is that which is entered into by faith.

That is a given every Bible student knows.
I expressly was speaking of Prophecy and Fulfillment, and hidden knowledge revealed.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus died. Did He "cease to exist"? You have no Scripture. Death does not mean "cease to exist". It's totally ridiculous to say the wicked who die will be created again so they can be punished. Are you saying God is so wicked that He would actually recreate the wicked so He can burn them alive?

For parts of three days the Only Begotten Son of God didn't exist. God resurrected his Only Begotten Son back to life the third day after his death.
 

kcnalp

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2020
7,326
1,782
113
Indianapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For parts of three days the Only Begotten Son of God didn't exist. God resurrected his Only Begotten Son back to life the third day after his death.
Jesus didn't exist? How about that folks!

John 2:19-21 (NKJV)
19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is not a body of Man and a living soul of man.

Again...Disagree with you.

Gen 2:7
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; [/B] and man [/B] became a living soul.

Form (Body man)
and
ALIVE (Living soul man)

Isa 10:
[18] And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.

Isa 51:
[23] But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Mic 6:
[7] Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

4 Ezra 3:
[5] And gavest a body unto Adam without soul, which was the workmanship of thine hands, and didst breathe into him the breath of life, and he was made living before thee.

Wis 9:
[15] For the corruptible body presseth down the soul, and the earthy tabernacle weigheth down the mind that museth upon many things.

Matt 10:
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Thes 5
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

AS I've pointed out several times now, ....The living soul is the BODY.

Yes repeatedly you have given your opinion and understanding.
Repeating yourself does not establish "the Soul IS the body."

"And" is a conjunctive word used TO JOIN two separate things Together.

A Body is One Thing Formed from Dust.
A Soul with Gods Breath is One Thing.
A Body (without Life) IS MADE ALIVE (with) Gods Living soul (imparted INTO) the FORMED body.

The Body AND Living Soul Joined " MAKES" the MANS "CREATED" BODY LIVING.

Scripture Expressly Teaches:
God CREATED ...Body's OF men from Dust.
God MADE ...Body's OF men ALIVE from A Living soul...God Blew INTO the Body.

Scripture Expressly Teaches:
A Formed Body-
AND
A Living Soul IN the Body....
ARE Identified...BY that one Man's ONE NAME

Scripture Expressly Teaches:
• A Body WITH a Living soul IN the Body IS an ALIVE Body.
• A Body...(having HAD a Living Soul IN the Body, THEN, the Living Soul OUT of the Body) IS A DEAD BODY.

You're trying to make the Scriptures fit what you believe. They don't.

Not true. And disagree,

The Body of Dust is Created.
The Living Soul is Life From God IMPARTED "INTO" the Body.
Two Different Things, From Two Different Sources.
The Body AND Soul Are Joined, one IN the other.
They are the MAKING of an ALIVE Man.
They Have the identity ON ONE man's Name.

Gen 2: (two Different THINGS!!!)
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It is the Body that Require the Living Soul IN the Body FOR the Body TO BE ALIVE.

•The Body IS REQUIRED by God...TO DIE!!!
•The Living Soul...IS NOT Required TO DIE!!!

•You should have Learned:
The LIFE of the BODY...
IS BLOOD
The LIFE of the SOUL...
IS Gods BREATH

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Without a body there is no soul.

Disagree.

The Living soul- IS a Soul with Gods Breath (and called by a man's Name).

God Does NOT Require A Man's BODY
To KEEP souls Living OUTSIDE of a man's Body.

All souls BELONG TO God.
All LIFE in a Soul IS Gods Life.

Ezek 18:
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Heb 5:
[5] So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

•The Body and Soul is Not the same thing.
•The Body and Soul is Not the Same Life.
•The Body and Soul have the Same Name.
•The Dead Body is a Dead Vessel and is buried.
•God is NOT IN a Dead Vessel.
•The Living Soul Departs out of a Dead Body.
•The Dead Body Knows nothing.
•The (out of Body) Living Soul Goes to Where Gods Sends it.
•A Restored Living Soul, IS Escorted by Angels TO Comfort WITH God.
•A Corrupt Living Soul, IS SENT to Hell To Torments WITHOUT God.
•Living Departed Souls, WITH or WITHOUT God, Are WAITING for Judgement Day.
• Dead- Applies to a Physical Mortal Body.
• Dead -Applies to ANY Living Body, ANY Living Soul, Any Living Spirit...STANDING Against God (in disbelief, denial, rejection).


No- I have not regarded Philosophies, or Implied or said or pointed you toward Philosophies of men as you WRONGLY charged.

I gave you benefit of doubt...That You understood the Word "AND" is A conjunctive word Joining TWO separate Things (Formed Body AND Living Soul of Gods Breath) ...
Called BY ONE man's Identifying Name...
That was Already TOLD and Shown You in Scripture.

I reviewed God CREATING is one thing...
And God MAKING another Thing.
God CREATED a man From Dust, A BODY.
God MADE the man, ALIVE. Living Soul.
• The First man-KIND of thing- God Created AND Made- was male AND female- God called by the Name ADAM.

Gen 5:
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

I asked you Specific questions, that YOU might Go and Search the Scriptures TO SEE for Yourself what you claim IS In Contrast TO Scripture. But you did not search the Scriptures Or answer the Questions...
You repeated your Accusations and Claims...

CONTINUED...
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
CONTIUNED;

Butch5- "A living soul doesn't leave the body".

More of your Claims, I Disagree with.
Again You did NOT Search the Scriptures to SEE if your claims were True.

Yes a Living soul Leaves/ Departs a Dead Body.

Gen 15:
[15] And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel.
[16] And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
[17] And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
[19] And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

Jacob and Rachel- Traveling
Rachel- wife of Jacob.
Rachel- In hard Labor.
Rachel- Delivers son
Son lives- called Benjamin
Rachel's Soul- Departs her Body
Rachel's Body- Dies
Rachel's- Body is Buried
Rachel's Soul ...AND ...Body...both Identified BY Rachel's NAME

Again I have Searched the Scriptures FOR YOU, to SHOW YOU, YOUR Teaching IS IN Contrast TO Scripture.

Scripture Examples OF BODYS RAISED FROM being DEAD BODYS...resumed TO a LIVING BODY.

A LIST of Specific Body's raised Back TO LIFE.

***PAY close Attention TO the First on the List of a Dead Body Raised back TO Living.

The FIRST BODY RAISED......Informs us OF "HOW" A DEAD BODY IS RAISED FROM Being A DEAD BODY, TO Resume Being A LIVING Body.

The Knowledge OF "HOW" Applies TO Every Dead Body Listed thereafter.


1 Kings 17 - 24
(Widow of Zarephath's son )
[17] And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
[18] And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
[19] And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
[20] And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
[21] And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's SOUL come INTO him AGAIN
[22] And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
[23] And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
[24] And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

Is the Word IN your mouth Truth?
you saying:
Souls and body's Are the SAME Thing?
you saying:
Souls Do Not Depart Dead Body's?
you saying:
Souls cease to exist when a Body dies?

Pay Attention to Scripture:
Dead Body's Resume a Mortal Life, When a Departed Living Soul "Returns" TO a Mortally Physical Body...

I have Posted the Scripture of the First Body Risen back to Life, Because it TELLS....HOW a Departed Living Soul...IS IMPARTED BACK into a Dead Body, and The Dead BODY, resumes Living Again.

For the Rest of the List, I will identify the Person...and Scriptural Reference. You can do your own Looking up and reading...that You may discover what You are preaching IS IN Contrast TO Verified Scriptural Truth.

Continuing List- Body's Raised from the Dead,
BY GOD RETURNING their LIVING SOUL back INTO their BODY.

2) Shunamite Woman's "son".
2 Kings 4: 18-37

3) Israelite man
2 Kings 13: 20-21

4) Widow of Nain's "son"
Luke 7: 11-17

5) Jairus' "daughter"
Luke 8: 49-56

6) Lazarus
John 11: 1-44

7) Jesus "Son of man"
Matt 28: 1-2
Mark 16: 1-20
Luke 24: 1-49
John 20: 1-21 , 25

8) Saints (Abraham & Others)
Matt 27: 50-54

9) Tabitha (also called Dorcus)
Acts 9: 36-42

10) Eutychus
Acts 20: 7-12

Bodys die and are Buried.
Living Souls depart dead Body's.
LIFE in the Soul belong to God.
The SOUL Belongs to God.
• God Controls Where a Living Soul DEPARTED out of a Dead Body WILL GO.

SLEEP- is commonly KNOWN as REST.
A Living BODY of a man...
Can be fully Awake- and Resting.
Can be soundly ASLEEP- and Resting.

SLEEP- Scripturally:
Can be A mans BODY:
• Resting while Awake
• Resting while Soundly Asleep.

SLEEP- Scripturally ALSO Applies TO a SOUL-
• A "Departed" SOUL "with God"...IS AWAKE and RESTING.
• A "Departed" SOUL "Not with God"....IS AWAKE and NEVER RESTING!

•Until you Trust Scripture that Notifies you...
OF A Man's WHOLNESS...BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT... are Different things ... and EACH thing REQUIRES Gods "Intervention" TO "MAKE" each "THING" (body, soul, spirit)...WHOLLY acceptable ... TO BE the WHOLE man's GOD...and BE Acceptable TO BE RECEIVED Wholly (Body, soul, spirit), INTO the Lord Gods KINGDOM...
• You will Never grasp the Understanding of Scriptural Knowledge.

HINT:
• The Knowledge is Revealed In Scripture FOR YOUR Benefit.
• The choosing to Believe the Knowledge Hinges on YOUR Freewill TO Believe it or Not.
• The one WHO Believes...IS the one...
WHOM the Lord God Himself, will GIVE that man, Gods Spiritual Understanding (which outweighs man's Carnal and philosophical understanding!)

• Set aside your unprofitable pre-conceived thoughts, ideas, notions, teaching, preaching, accusations, philosophies, stubbornness, other men's conclusions, your conclusions...
• Become afresh, as a child-
Read, Learn, Trust, Believe Scripture.

God WANTS you TO KNOW- His Truth
God WANTS you TO KNOW- His Understanding


Jesus GLORIFIED God- BY Speaking GODS TRUTH...and ^ THAT is the Same WAY- A Man "MADE" WHOLE Can Also Glorify God.

Do you KNOW...WHY...GOD "Wants"/"Desires"
For EVERY man TO Freely Choose TO BE "MADE" WHOLE (Body, soul, Spirit)?

3 Reasons:
1) It CHANGES the WHOLE man From Corrupt TO Holy.
2) It REVEALS a man's FREEWILL TO Love God, (as God Loves a man).
3) A WHOLLY (body, soul, spirit) Converted man; IS Gods "inheritance".

A man's Reasonable Service...IS:
Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

God Does All the "MAKING" changes...when and how...as Scriptural Knowledge Reveals.

And WHEN The Lord God: Gathers/Collects/Claims/Takes What IS His...
That He has MADE Acceptable, Sanctified (set apart)...
You Should KNOW...HOW and In WHAT manner and In what WAY and ORDER.

Notice: the Word of God ...divides...
The Soul's and spirit's and body's THOUGHT'S.

Heb 4:
[12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Notice: the Word of God is Also Quick to Convert a "willing man": by MAKING a man WHOLLY (soul, spirit, body) WHOLE.

1 Thes 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the parable Lazarus and the Rich Man's bodies were carried to Hades.
No.
Their Dead Body's were Buried.
Their Living Souls-
OF Abraham - was Carried to Hell By Angel's.
OF the Rich man- Was Sent to Hell.

You use words Without Understanding to preach what you do Not understand.

Hades, Sheol, Gehenna...Are words..Hebrews and Greeks used TO "Describe"...
1) the Realm of the Dead.
2) their BEST understanding of what became of Body's after burial and Souls after a Body died)

Have you become Stuck in Hebrew and Greek "guessworks" and attempt to use "their" words as Authority of "UNDERSTANDING"....WHEN Scripture Clearly REVEALS, BY and Through JESUS...the REVEALED Knowledge ...OF WHAT Becomes of a Dead Body and Departed Living Soul?

Dead Body's Are Buried.... BY Living men!
You think men Buried Body's IN Hell?

Learn the History- the Culture- the Truth.
Early Hebrews DID NOT bury Body's IN DIRT!
They "Buried Body's IN Caves", called that a Grave.
Body's Buried ...in Caves, Tombs, Vaults, Mausoulums, Dirt, Cemeteries, etc. Are all Buried by Living men, and the Grave of the Dead Body.
Living men DO NOT carry Dead Body's To Hell and Bury Dead Body's !

As I Expressly said: During Jesus Time ON the Earth...
All Departed Living souls OF Dead and Buried Body's WENT TO Hell.
Hell was Divided...(by a great gulf)...showed you the Scripture. Luke 16:26
One Side was Saved Living Souls...
One side was Unsaved Living Souls...
Neither could Cross the Gulf.
The Living Souls- had thoughts, memory, could SEE, speak, Hear, Feel, Smell...

You should have discovered...
Body's and souls are Two Differebt Things.
Dead Body's are buried by other Living men.
Dead Body's Ears, Eyes, Mouths, Skin, Nose, no longer Function; no hearing, no seeing, no speaking, no feeling, no smelling!!
But the Departed Living Soul...Continues...Hearing, Seeing, Speaking, Feeling, Smelling.
The Body's life IS Blood.
The Souls life IS Gods Breath.
God departs Living souls out of Dead Bodies.
God has the power to impart a Living soul back into a dead body, and the Body again has LIFE in it.
THAT AFTER Jesus' Soul returned to Heaven-
"Saved" Living souls Departed out of Dead Body's are escorted by Gods Angels Directly To Heaven.
"Unsaved" Living souls continue going to hell To Wait In Torments, For Judgement Day.

He can speak because it's a parable. In the real world the dead can't speak.

As suspected...it does not matter IF Jesus spoke IN Parables, Limericks, Poems, Pig-Latin...either you Believe every word spoken out of Jesus' Mouth was Truth...or you Do Not.

You are revealing the latter.

There are no body's IN Hell...only Unsaved Living souls...
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
1,146
32
48
62
Homer Ga.
Again...Disagree with you.

Gen 2:7
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; [/B] and man [/B] became a living soul.

Form (Body man)
and
ALIVE (Living soul man)

Isa 10:
[18] And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.

Isa 51:
[23] But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Mic 6:
[7] Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

4 Ezra 3:
[5] And gavest a body unto Adam without soul, which was the workmanship of thine hands, and didst breathe into him the breath of life, and he was made living before thee.

Wis 9:
[15] For the corruptible body presseth down the soul, and the earthy tabernacle weigheth down the mind that museth upon many things.

Matt 10:
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Thes 5
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Yes repeatedly you have given your opinion and understanding.
Repeating yourself does not establish "the Soul IS the body."

"And" is a conjunctive word used TO JOIN two separate things Together.

A Body is One Thing Formed from Dust.
A Soul with Gods Breath is One Thing.
A Body (without Life) IS MADE ALIVE (with) Gods Living soul (imparted INTO) the FORMED body.

The Body AND Living Soul Joined " MAKES" the MANS "CREATED" BODY LIVING.

Scripture Expressly Teaches:
God CREATED ...Body's OF men from Dust.
God MADE ...Body's OF men ALIVE from A Living soul...God Blew INTO the Body.

Scripture Expressly Teaches:
A Formed Body-
AND
A Living Soul IN the Body....
ARE Identified...BY that one Man's ONE NAME

Scripture Expressly Teaches:
• A Body WITH a Living soul IN the Body IS an ALIVE Body.
• A Body...(having HAD a Living Soul IN the Body, THEN, the Living Soul OUT of the Body) IS A DEAD BODY.



Not true. And disagree,

The Body of Dust is Created.
The Living Soul is Life From God IMPARTED "INTO" the Body.
Two Different Things, From Two Different Sources.
The Body AND Soul Are Joined, one IN the other.
They are the MAKING of an ALIVE Man.
They Have the identity ON ONE man's Name.

Gen 2: (two Different THINGS!!!)
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It is the Body that Require the Living Soul IN the Body FOR the Body TO BE ALIVE.

•The Body IS REQUIRED by God...TO DIE!!!
•The Living Soul...IS NOT Required TO DIE!!!

•You should have Learned:
The LIFE of the BODY...
IS BLOOD
The LIFE of the SOUL...
IS Gods BREATH

Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.



Disagree.

The Living soul- IS a Soul with Gods Breath (and called by a man's Name).

God Does NOT Require A Man's BODY
To KEEP souls Living OUTSIDE of a man's Body.

All souls BELONG TO God.
All LIFE in a Soul IS Gods Life.

Ezek 18:
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Heb 5:
[5] So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

•The Body and Soul is Not the same thing.
•The Body and Soul is Not the Same Life.
•The Body and Soul have the Same Name.
•The Dead Body is a Dead Vessel and is buried.
•God is NOT IN a Dead Vessel.
•The Living Soul Departs out of a Dead Body.
•The Dead Body Knows nothing.
•The (out of Body) Living Soul Goes to Where Gods Sends it.
•A Restored Living Soul, IS Escorted by Angels TO Comfort WITH God.
•A Corrupt Living Soul, IS SENT to Hell To Torments WITHOUT God.
•Living Departed Souls, WITH or WITHOUT God, Are WAITING for Judgement Day.
• Dead- Applies to a Physical Mortal Body.
• Dead -Applies to ANY Living Body, ANY Living Soul, Any Living Spirit...STANDING Against God (in disbelief, denial, rejection).


No- I have not regarded Philosophies, or Implied or said or pointed you toward Philosophies of men as you WRONGLY charged.

I gave you benefit of doubt...That You understood the Word "AND" is A conjunctive word Joining TWO separate Things (Formed Body AND Living Soul of Gods Breath) ...
Called BY ONE man's Identifying Name...
That was Already TOLD and Shown You in Scripture.

I reviewed God CREATING is one thing...
And God MAKING another Thing.
God CREATED a man From Dust, A BODY.
God MADE the man, ALIVE. Living Soul.
• The First man-KIND of thing- God Created AND Made- was male AND female- God called by the Name ADAM.

Gen 5:
[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

I asked you Specific questions, that YOU might Go and Search the Scriptures TO SEE for Yourself what you claim IS In Contrast TO Scripture. But you did not search the Scriptures Or answer the Questions...
You repeated your Accusations and Claims...

CONTINUED...
I thought you said those OT guys didn't really understand.

You keep saying the same thing, but it isn't so. NOWHERE in Scripture doesn't say that God put a living soul into man. It says man BECAME a living. That's not my opinion. It's stated plainly in Gen 2:7. Anyone following this thread can see that it says, man BECAME a living soul.

You said a soul can't die, Isaiah said the Jesus poured out His soul into death.

Regarding the passages that speak of body and soul, as I've stated already, concretely nephesh, soul, means a living being. However, when use abstractly it means life. So those passage that say body and soul are often translated as body and life.

Look, let's establish your premise. Your premise is that there is a living soul that continues on after death. Please show me anywhere in the Bible that teaches of this living soul going on living after death. Unless you can establish that you're giving your opinion

You're not that far off from having it correct. You just have to lose the Greek philosophical concept of Dualism.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Taken said:
Living soul- every person ever Born Alive- Has Living soul.[/Quote\]
The scriptures say, "we are souls" not that we "have souls." At Genesis 2:7 it tells us that the combination of God taking dust from the ground forming man and blowing the breath of life in man nostrils that man became a living soul. The Bible does not say that "man received a soul," but that he "became" a living soul.

BARNEY ?
Butch5 ?

SO what does this mean...???

1 Thes 5:
[23] your ...spirit and soul and body ....

And How is it yours ....if you are Only a living soul?

Where is your spirit, & soul & Body?

Can either of you answer?
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I thought you said those OT guys didn't really understand.

I said SOME did not understand...like you, who reads what I say, but do NOT understand....who reads OT Scripture and DOES NOT understand more NT Knowledge.

You keep saying the same thing, but it isn't so.

Yes I say the Same thing -and it is the Same according to Scripture.

NOWHERE in Scripture doesn't say that God put a living soul into man.

How many Times have you Read Gen 7: 2 that says INTO his nostrils and you can not yet Comprehend ... What INTO means...and "his nostrils " is a part of the man's Formed Body of Dust?

It says man BECAME a living. That's not my opinion. It's stated plainly in Gen 2:7. Anyone following this thread can see that it says, man BECAME a living soul.[/B]

And what? The Body disappeared?
The Body Became a Living soul?

LOL

You said a soul can't die, Isaiah said the Jesus poured out His soul into death.

I said- a soul can not die Physically.
You can NOT Kill a soul.
Souls (as well as spirits and Body's) Separated from God Are Spiritually Dead.

Do you not comprehend Spiritual Death?
Do you not know, all Living souls of men are Spiritually Dead T

Yep Jesus'...body...Given unto death.
Yep Jesus' ..soul poured OUT of his body.

Do you not know what OUT means?

Did you not continue Learning More knowledge?

Did you Not learn...Jesus ONLY gave his Body unto Death?
Heb 19:40

Did you not learn the Body Is Flesh?
John 6:1

Did you not learn Jesus would not sacrifice the Whole of Him (soul, spirit)...but Only a Body that God prepared for Him, when He came into the world?
Heb 10:5

Did you not learn The disciples Teaching of Jesus Offering His BODY?
Heb 10:10


Regarding the passages that speak of body and soul, as I've stated already, concretely nephesh, soul, means a living being. However, when use abstractly

Opinion.


Look, let's establish your premise. Your premise is that there is a living soul that continues on after death. Please show me anywhere in the Bible that teaches of this living soul going on living after death. Unless you can establish that you're giving your opinion.

Already Did.

You're not that far off from having it correct. You just have to lose the Greek philosophical concept of Dualism.

I have never mentioned Using Greek Philosophy. No clue what Greek concept of Dualism is. You keep mentioning Greek Philosophy, perhaps that is what you use!

You can not answer any simple Questions I have Asked...