Predestination Vs. Free Will

James said:

Lol...John 3:16 says that whosoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved...so the only people who will be saved our those who believe in Him through repentance and faith. So not all will be saved and not all can be saved because not all will believe as mentioned in Matthew 7:14

Oh and Christ didn't die for the whole world because if He did then everyone's sins would be forgiven....He only died for those who would believe.

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But thats not what the scriptures state James.
John 3:16&17
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.


Isaiah 55:
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. "The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.


John 1:1
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.


John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!



Romans 10:8-11
Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.


Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.' "


1Timothy 2:3&4
This is good and pleases God our Savior, for He wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.


So James and Adstar which of these do you disagree with? Do you believe that God doesn't want everyone reconciled or do you believe that that God did not send His Son to save the world or do you believe that God's Word fails to accomplish what it (He) sends it to do?

P.S. If you want more scriptures I can post more, there are hundreds.

jiggyfly said:

But thats not what the scriptures state James.
John 3:16&17
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.


Isaiah 55:
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. "The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.


John 1:1
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.


John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!



Romans 10:8-11
Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.


Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.' "


1Timothy 2:3&4
This is good and pleases God our Savior, for He wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.


So James and Adstar which of these do you disagree with? Do you believe that God doesn't want everyone reconciled or do you believe that that God did not send His Son to save the world or do you believe that God's Word fails to accomplish what it (He) sends it to do?

P.S. If you want more scriptures I can post more, there are hundreds.

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Selective editing is often used to dilute the gospel of Christ.

The overall context of the entire Bible is that a small number of people will be involved in the attentions and salvation of the Almighty.
The OT pattern uses Israel as a repeated example of this process. The Hebrews were and are God's specific nation selected for salvation (the only nation among men that has such a guarantee - the rest of humanity is on a person by person basis).

The NT begins with Jesus being sent to the Jews. The book of Acts records the establishment of the church, in the middle of much opposition and worldly difficult I may add.

The salvation of Christ is OFFERED to the whole world, but the bulk of humanity REJECTS it. A gift has no meaning unless it is accepted by the receiver. If a man holds a winning million dollar lottery ticket (or a check from his rich uncle), and doesn't cash it in, it is of no value to him. Salvation offered by Christ is worth much much more than gold and silver, yet men treat it like dirt and often sweep it under their feet.

To assume that the gift of salvation is automatically operative for all men is contradictory to logic, to Biblical context, to history, and to the testimony of the saints.

The notion that salvation is universal comes from the enemy, the opposer of truth, and those who rely upon their own works to justify themselves instead of the grace of God. The philosophy looks good on the surface, but it is riddled with illogic, inconsistancy and spiritual deception. If universalism wasn't spawned by the devil, then why is there so much opposition to accepting a free gift from God?

The gift is from God and must be accepted, else it stands unused and neglected to the detriment and disservice of those who ignore the frantic calls to accept it.

jiggyfly said:

[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="3"]So you don't believe that Jesus bore the punishment for our sins at the cross?[/size][/font]

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No Mr. Jiggyfly, because it doesn't say He "bore the punisment for our sins". It is a subject that is greatly detailed, the efficacy of the Cross of Christ, and not once is that concept mentioned. It is human reasoning, not scriptural truth. If you try to find it there, you will exercise yourself and come up empty-handed.

fivesense

James said:

Oh and Christ didn't die for the whole world because if He did then everyone's sins would be forgiven....He only died for those who would believe.

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AV 2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

AV Jn 1:29 . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

Now what? To hold to the belief you state, I would have to discard these passages. Both can't be right...
fivesense

fivesense said:

AV 2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

AV Jn 1:29 . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

Now what? To hold to the belief you state, I would have to discard these passages. Both can't be right...
fivesense

Click to expand...

Christ died for the sin of the world, true. But only those that accept that death personally on their own behalf are saved. It is a free gift to each that accepts it. If you receive a tie under the tree at Christmas but do not open it and accept it as yours, the tie is of no use to you.

Now, the op was about free-will and predestination, we return to that or close the thread.

jiggyfly said:

But thats not what the scriptures state James.
John 3:16&17
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.


Isaiah 55:
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. "The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.


John 1:1
In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.


John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!



Romans 10:8-11
Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.


Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.' "


1Timothy 2:3&4
This is good and pleases God our Savior, for He wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.


So James and Adstar which of these do you disagree with? Do you believe that God doesn't want everyone reconciled or do you believe that that God did not send His Son to save the world or do you believe that God's Word fails to accomplish what it (He) sends it to do?

P.S. If you want more scriptures I can post more, there are hundreds.

Click to expand...

Hey Jiggyfly.
What I said is true. All who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. He came to save everyone in the world.......however, not everyone in the world is going to follow Christ. That is why I pointed out Matt 7:14. Not everyone will be saved and so the only people who will receive forgiveness for their sins are those that place their trust in Him. I am NOT saying that Christ didn't die for the whole world...He did. But what separates you and me is that you see scripture as saying that Chrsit died for all people that ever existed. I see scripture saying that Christ died for all those that will repent and place their trust in Christ.

For example, in John 1:29 when he said that Christ comes to take away the sin of the world...there is a difference in how you and I interprete that. You appear to interpret it as saying that Christ has come to take away the sins of the entire world or all people. I interpret it as saying that Christ came to take away the sins of all those that believe in Him.

Can you answer this one question though because in all honesty I cannot. If Christ died for all sinners, and He came to take away all of the sins of the world, then how come all people are not in heaven? If Christ truly died for everyone's sins...then all the sins that everyone throughout the history of the earth should be forgiven then. Right? In Matthew 7 it teaches that not all will walk through the narrow gate. I know I keep using Matthew 7 so just to add more fuel to the fire I think Romans 3:23 is clear enough on that issue.

James said:

Hey Jiggyfly.
What I said is true. All who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. He came to save everyone in the world.......however, not everyone in the world is going to follow Christ. That is why I pointed out Matt 7:14. Not everyone will be saved and so the only people who will receive forgiveness for their sins are those that place their trust in Him. I am NOT saying that Christ didn't die for the whole world...He did. But what separates you and me is that you see scripture as saying that Chrsit died for all people that ever existed. I see scripture saying that Christ died for all those that will repent and place their trust in Christ.

For example, in John 1:29 when he said that Christ comes to take away the sin of the world...there is a difference in how you and I interprete that. You appear to interpret it as saying that Christ has come to take away the sins of the entire world or all people. I interpret it as saying that Christ came to take away the sins of all those that believe in Him.

Can you answer this one question though because in all honesty I cannot. If Christ died for all sinners, and He came to take away all of the sins of the world, then how come all people are not in heaven? If Christ truly died for everyone's sins...then all the sins that everyone throughout the history of the earth should be forgiven then. Right? In Matthew 7 it teaches that not all will walk through the narrow gate. I know I keep using Matthew 7 so just to add more fuel to the fire I think Romans 3:23 is clear enough on that issue.

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Ok let's look at what Paul said in his letter to the Romans.
Romans 3:22-26
We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. Yet now God in His gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins.
For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus.


And again look at Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, " `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.


Philippians 2:9-11
Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[email protected] said:

Selective editing is often used to dilute the gospel of Christ.

The overall context of the entire Bible is that a small number of people will be involved in the attentions and salvation of the Almighty.
The OT pattern uses Israel as a repeated example of this process. The Hebrews were and are God's specific nation selected for salvation (the only nation among men that has such a guarantee - the rest of humanity is on a person by person basis).

Click to expand...

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29


God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. John 3:17


Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. Romans 5:18


For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. Romans 11:32


And this is his plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. Ephesians 1:10


This is good and pleases God our Savior, for he wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 1Tim. 2:3&4


We work hard and suffer much [fn] in order that people will believe the truth, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and particularly of those who believe. 1Tim 4:10


For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross. Colossians 1:19&20


Like I said earlier there hundreds of scriptures that support a universal reconciliation. Do you disagree with all of them?

Paul said:

Christ died for the sin of the world, true. But only those that accept that death personally on their own behalf are saved. It is a free gift to each that accepts it. If you receive a tie under the tree at Christmas but do not open it and accept it as yours, the tie is of no use to you.

Now, the op was about free-will and predestination, we return to that or close the thread.

Click to expand...

OK, since you don't want to talk about the OP, topic closed.