In reading back over a number of posts that were posted in another question and answer forum I came across, one that gave me pause to wonder. We are told that sin entered into the world through one man Adam and was passed on to every proceeding generation (i.e. we are born with a sin nature) therefore I find myself with two questions, (1) God stopped creating after 6 days and rested, creation then continued through the seed of His creation, that being the case each time a new human soul enters into this world he/she enters with a body,soul, and spirit that posses Adams sinful nature. (2) If that is the case God indirectly, it would seem, becomes the author of the sin nature along with Adam as new life cannot come into being unless it is His will, as He is the one who creates the soul how than can a new soul not be infected with sin ....Ray
Creationism And Sinfull Nature
- Thread starter bigdummy
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
God gave the Earth to man. Satan got hold of the Earth. Man took on the nature of his new god, Satan. God makes way for man to be born again, and loose that sin nature.
So, none of it was Gods fault. Satan got ahold of the earth because man obeyed Satan.
Our spirit was already created and placed on earth according the plan of God. You are here at this time because it is the time of God's best plan for you.
Jesus Is Lord.
So, none of it was Gods fault. Satan got ahold of the earth because man obeyed Satan.
Our spirit was already created and placed on earth according the plan of God. You are here at this time because it is the time of God's best plan for you.
Jesus Is Lord.
Let's start off with discarding unscriptural terms. "sin nature", it is not scriptural. It is theology, not Inspired Writing. Man is not born with a sin nature. He inherits death, and sin through death, not the other way around. Death is unnatural. Adam would have continued in communion with God indefinitely had he not transgressed. But he did, and dying, he surely died, and separated himself from the God of the living, not the dead. This was the sin, the willful separation. It was planned by God in order to obtain sons and daughters who would reject the weakness of flesh, as was in Adam and Eve from the start, and seek after God in spirit and in truth. Without a knowledge of good and evil, man cannot attain to this purpose. Man must know, being created in the image and likeness of Elohim, the right and the wrong about living. But not without the experience necessary to discern them.
Without God's redemptive plan of salvation, from before the foundation of the world, the process could never have been completed. It is long, it is painful, it is filled with suffering for all mankind, especially the Son of God Creator. but the end justifies the means-spiritual sons and daughters who worship God and love Him as merciful and good.
God is not the Author of a "sinful nature" in man. He did endow him with a weak will, in order to establish Himself as the Supreme One Whose riches and wisdom and wealth of goodness is unfathomable, and once realized, it will bring all of His creation to Himself in worship and praise.
As I previously posted, there is no soul without a soil body and a spirit imparted from the Father of spirits. If God calls that spirit back to Himself, it no longer empowers that body, and the soul that came into existence during that time returns to whence it came, oblivion.
This can be confirmed by an earnest study of the Scriptures.
fivesense
That is very interesting........................ I did not look at it that way.
God plans failure?? Um, Jer 29:11 reads different...........Unless good thoughts include disobedience and sin as good.......
Adam was told not to touch that tree, That was not in God's plan. Adam never had a issue trusting in the Lord or weakness of the flesh, So Adam never had to learn that lesson. Satan was never part of the picture for us, Jesus said he is a theif that came another way. Adam became of servant of whom he obeyed, and handed that rat all God gave Adam.
No, God does not make anything to fail.
That tree of good and evil was the knowledge of Clamity. The knowledge that bad things can happen.
adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill
Before the tree, Adam had no concept of being hurt, or being in fear of something yet to happen, which is the bases of all fear. Fear is faith in somethings ability to hurt you, as opposed to God's ability to keep and protect you.
That is what this tree gave Adam, everything that Satan is about. It's all tied into the root of the fear of death. God never planed for us to be afraid, in grief, to be harmed, to have adversity.
Fivesense, you do well breaking down the Word, but get that doctrine out of the way, if your picking it up at some church, get out of there Brother. Give me the scripture that God endows us with a weak will, that he may establish Himself. God needs to establish himself by giving us weak wills???
Read Joel 3:10............
Jesus Is Lord.
Hi Brother Mike, I admire your desire to clear God of responsibility in this matter. But He has already discussed this with us in many passages to us.
Nothing that God does is a failure. Those are your words, according to your estimation of His processes. I consider Eve's inability to resist temptation, a sure sign of a lack of will, as a part of her that God intended her to possess, or He would have made her otherminded. He did not make her otherminded. Her mind is the mind she received fresh from Elohim, at His hand, with no one else in the making of it.
You must not forget they had no knowledge or good to draw from. They were totally bereft of right and wrong. Have you considered that at all? No one is able to make decisions for themselves as an individual without the knowledge of good and evil. Without that base of knowledge, one is merely an automoton. They were forbidden from eating from that tree alone. The tree of life may have kept them alive, but life with God without a knowledge of right and wrong is useless.
How does one appreciate the good of a Father, without the contrasts of evil? For them to have not partaken of the fruit would have left thankless, dependent and selfish automatons.
Is that what you would want from the children you had, or would you desire them to come into a full appreciation of who you were?
It is no failure on God's part to have made mankind this way, for the ends justifies the means for our Holy God, Who wants His sons and daughters to truly "know" good and evil in order to serve Him with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength.
I point out once more, prior to partaking of that forbidden element, Adam and Eve did not know good or evil. Only being waited on and served.
fivesense
Fivesense.
I see your Point Brother. Your understanding is that even though God told them not to do something, how would they have understood the consequences of disobedience to God, if they had no knowledge of what wrong was.
Had not God (Allowed) (Caused) whatever the case, Mankind would not need to lean on the Lord, as there would be no opposition to force us to do so. At least the smart ones turn to the Lord, understanding without Him, we can do nothing.
I don't think I am going to change your thinking on this, or at least right away, but at least consider.
1) We have scripture that God only wants the best for us. If it was his will that Adam sinned, then we run into lots of issues concerning other scriptures. We don't have scripture that says anything about weak wills or things like that. Be strong in the Lord and the Power of His might.
2) Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
God would have had to break his word here if what your saying is correct. If Adam and Eve had to know wrong, but did not know wrong, then sin would not have been imputed to them. I don't even punish my daughter if she does something that is not good, but had no knowledge of it being bad. Like painting on the wall. You can't sin if you don't know it's sin. (Anything that is not of faith is sin, or things your heart tells you is not right.)
3) There is a big assumption that Adam and Eve did not understand what wrong was. Remember, this tree did not give the knowledge of sin, it gave the knowledge of calamity. (Bad things can Happen) This would put doubt in Adams mind of God's ability to keep and protect him. Just like the Children of Isreal who sinned because of the same thing. It's called unbelief, and the Children did not enter in because of unbelief. They continued to think on the things that could happen to them.
We are going to starve, get killed by the sword, get snake bit, and so on. They constantly were afraid that God would not come though for them.
4) Adam and Eve did know what disobedience was. Lets go back...............
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Eve already knew, she did not need any eyes opened to know what God had said. However, what about Adam?
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
What did you write fivesense?
That can't be so, because Adam knew full well what disobedience was, He knew exactly what he did, and all this without that tree. God never planed any of this.
Jesus Is Lord.
I see your Point Brother. Your understanding is that even though God told them not to do something, how would they have understood the consequences of disobedience to God, if they had no knowledge of what wrong was.
Had not God (Allowed) (Caused) whatever the case, Mankind would not need to lean on the Lord, as there would be no opposition to force us to do so. At least the smart ones turn to the Lord, understanding without Him, we can do nothing.
I don't think I am going to change your thinking on this, or at least right away, but at least consider.
1) We have scripture that God only wants the best for us. If it was his will that Adam sinned, then we run into lots of issues concerning other scriptures. We don't have scripture that says anything about weak wills or things like that. Be strong in the Lord and the Power of His might.
2) Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
God would have had to break his word here if what your saying is correct. If Adam and Eve had to know wrong, but did not know wrong, then sin would not have been imputed to them. I don't even punish my daughter if she does something that is not good, but had no knowledge of it being bad. Like painting on the wall. You can't sin if you don't know it's sin. (Anything that is not of faith is sin, or things your heart tells you is not right.)
3) There is a big assumption that Adam and Eve did not understand what wrong was. Remember, this tree did not give the knowledge of sin, it gave the knowledge of calamity. (Bad things can Happen) This would put doubt in Adams mind of God's ability to keep and protect him. Just like the Children of Isreal who sinned because of the same thing. It's called unbelief, and the Children did not enter in because of unbelief. They continued to think on the things that could happen to them.
We are going to starve, get killed by the sword, get snake bit, and so on. They constantly were afraid that God would not come though for them.
4) Adam and Eve did know what disobedience was. Lets go back...............
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Eve already knew, she did not need any eyes opened to know what God had said. However, what about Adam?
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
What did you write fivesense?
That can't be so, because Adam knew full well what disobedience was, He knew exactly what he did, and all this without that tree. God never planed any of this.
Jesus Is Lord.
Thank you Mike for being gracious to hear me. I am grateful for your ear.
I can think of many cases where the willingness to follow commands of others does not require discerning what their motives are. I am required at my job to follow the dictates of my bosses, submit to their authority if you will, and most often I do not question their designs. If I assume to know more than they, this is where I run into difficulties. My opinions and the subtleness of pride sometimes comes to the fore, and I then usually find myself at odds with them, causing trouble for everyone.
Obedience does not require a knowledge of good and evil, but trust. If I feel it is forced compliance, by threat of consequence, then that must mean I do not understand the need for a particular command. I enjoy traveling by car, and speed limits sometimes seem ridiculously slow. But because of circumstances I may not be aware of, an accident prone intersection for example, the DOT is obligated to limit the speed. It is my lack of knowledge that brings the need of obedience into play. Though I desire to exceed the limits, I must not disobey, or possibly suffer consequences.
Jusr because they were alive, it does not follow that Adam and Eve understood what disobedience was, since all they ever did was obey the Lord. Until the Slanderer came upon the scene, they were not exposed to decision-making. They merely followed the commands and instructions of Elohim. It was an effortless activity that yielded positive results to their bodies and souls, supranormally endowed at the time, and it did not involve discerning right from wrong. They had no ability to do that, not being nurtured by the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Blind obedience, with thankless and unappreciative hearts was all they could offer to God.
Famine and starvation? It was unknown. Disease and sickness? They were totally healthy. Their was no adoration, no praise, no thankfulness and no reciprocated love in return to the Unloved God Who place them in the flawless environment they were in.
Yet here is the wisdom of God. The very defect within them, the inability to show forth praise, affection and adoration to the Creator, was to be remedied by the very fruit that caused the transgression. It is astounding to see how Love finds satisfaction.
I do not enjoy bringing this to your attention, and I pray you have understanding, but substituting "calamity" for evil does not change the sense of the morality issue resultant in eating the forbidden fruit. It did not give them a knowledge of calamity, it gave them an awareness of evil. There is a difference here, and you may be attempting to sidestep that truth by rendering evil as calamity. In their nakedness they felt shame, not calamity, yet with their understanding of good and evil activated, their only recourse for their shame was to hide.
The tree produced one fruit, not two. Good is contrasted against evil. It is moral and not physical evil that is implied here.
Evil is amoral, it has no morality to it. It is not sin. Is a tornado or an earthquake "sin"? And Who affects these things? Does that indict Him as sinner?. No, it is not truth. God can do no sin. If He uses evil to bring about good, such as the deliberate death of His own Son at the hands of murderers, can we ascribe sin to Him for producing evil?
Evil in the hands of corrupted mankind produces tragedy, suffering, and oppression. Evil in the hands of God always brings about remedy, blessing and benefit. Evil has no moral value in and of itself. It is not the same as sin.
Obedience from a heart filled with thanksgiving, praise, adoration and love, these things does God desire from His sons and daughters. Not the blind obedience of a slave or the mere obedience to commands. It is the heart, the head, the soul, the mind, these things He wants from us, the things that our First Parents could not offer to Him because of their inbuilt weakness of ignorance of good and evil.
fivesense
[email protected]
Choir Loft
Your logic has several flaws, which have led to erroneous conclusions.
1. God has not stopped working. He hasn't left things alone to operate by default as you suggest "through the seed of His creation".
A new soul (baby) is born with all the benefits and hazards which come with being human.
The possibility of rebellion against authority is one of those aspects of human nature.
2. God is not the author of sin simply because He created beings who can do so.
For example, being born poor does not automatically imply that one will become a criminal.
Neither does birth into a wealthy family insure a life that is altogether wholesome and lacking in criminal acts.
Being human means having options in life. God has created all things good including those options.
It is not the flesh which sins against God, it is the will.
Having decided upon sin, the will corrupts the flesh.
The Bible teaches that the will is affected by an outside force, that which we call the power of sin.
But it also teaches that the power of God has been loosed upon the earth to end the rule and influence of sin in the lives of men.
That work of God is enabled by the death of Christ and demonstrated by His resurrection.
It is available to everyone who asks for it and is generally referred to as 'being saved.'
No man can defeat the power of sin on his own, but every man who has accepted Christ has the power to do so.
Hey Jiggyfly. I have thoughts that provoke people to!!!!! My statements were just a valid.........!!!!! Something like that!!!! <_<
Fivesense:
I sure did not expect something as THOUGHT PROVOKING as that..................................Certainly a very valid point.
Well, that is what the Hebrew does say. Your right, they did not know what starving was, or being sick was.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So, what your saying is that even though the bible says Adam was not deceived, and God did tell Adam that he would die, there was no "REAL" concept of consequences. It was just out of obedience. Much like you tell a child not to touch the stove, but yet each generation must find out on their own "Burn included" that the stove is actually harmful.
OK....................................... My Pastor just taught us about judging. When we judge someone we do so without consideration of what light God has revealed to them from his Word. In effect, we judge ourselves in a sense because we also bring condemnation on ourselves for those things we allow and do that we don't have light on yet.
For example I know a girl that has committed fornication with several guys. Just go and sleep with them. She knew adultery was not a good thing, but when I talked to her she said God revealed that her issue was with her relationship with her father as a child, and somehow he was always saying that she was going to fail, which in turn latter caused her to somehow end up in bed with other men.
I was thinking that was pretty lame, because fornication is just what it is. Why did God "Supposedly/ or he could have really" need to reveal all that to her to say that sleeping around is not a good thing? I knew better than to press the issue and just kept quit.
Adam did not have full truth and light in what he did???????????????????????????
I don't think that Garden was in a flawless environment. I fully believe that Adam knew that their were issues, and knew how to do his job in the Garden. He did have things to do, and I am not sure how long he spent with God and getting instructions. It would appear that Adam had a good relationship with God.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Hebrew:
To keep means to guard, protect, a doorman, keep watch. It was more than just pick fruit and enjoy yourself. It was to guard it against something. Not all was well around the Garden, but Adam was given charge to protect that Garden. In my understanding, I fully believe that Adam knew with full understanding what he was up against, and knew there was adversity outside that Garden. Another Hebrew word would have been used if that was not the case.
To Keep:
BDB:
1a1) to keep, have charge of
1a2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life
1a2a) watch, watchman (participle)
1a3) to watch for, wait for
1a4) to watch, observe
1a5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
1a6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
Strongs:
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).
I won't argue about Adam knowing after eating the fruit that he found himself naked, and hid himself. I still believe though that Adam knew what he was doing, and that what he was doing was wrong. We don't have to experience Evil to know something is Evil. I also believe he knew who Satan was, as he had to know what he was gaurding against in the Garden. Adam also understood the consequences of eating that fruit.
I have not robbed any banks or steal, because i know that robbing a bank will bring consequences. I don't fully understand what may happen to me, but I know it won't be good.
In Law, we prove someone fit to stand trial by their actions. Did they attempt to cover evidence? If they did then they knew what they did was wrong, though they may be somewhat nuts. Adam did hide after his disobedience, I believe that fruit did do something to Adam, but I also believe he hid because he already knew what God told him about protecting that Garden, and eating that fruit. (He hid not because of what the fruit imparted to him, He hid because he knew what God said before he ate the fruit. Remember the bible said that Adam was not confused.)
Just like robbing a bank, and not knowing exactly what would happen in the amount of prison time, or exact proceedings against you, just like Adam, he knew that no good would come from his disobedience, and did not fully comprehend what the outcome may be. He, like someone that sleeps with someone underage find that out after the crime is committed, but still knew not to commit that crime.
Pretty interesting Fivesense!!!! you make a good case. This is a little more deeper though than just looking at Genesis. Our belief system here is based on who we think God is, and what our understanding of God's character and nature is. Our understanding of the Garden is rooted in who we believe God is. To sort that out, it would take many more pages of thread.
Thank you!!! and be blessed.
Jesus Is Lord.
Fivesense:
I sure did not expect something as THOUGHT PROVOKING as that..................................Certainly a very valid point.
Well, that is what the Hebrew does say. Your right, they did not know what starving was, or being sick was.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So, what your saying is that even though the bible says Adam was not deceived, and God did tell Adam that he would die, there was no "REAL" concept of consequences. It was just out of obedience. Much like you tell a child not to touch the stove, but yet each generation must find out on their own "Burn included" that the stove is actually harmful.
OK....................................... My Pastor just taught us about judging. When we judge someone we do so without consideration of what light God has revealed to them from his Word. In effect, we judge ourselves in a sense because we also bring condemnation on ourselves for those things we allow and do that we don't have light on yet.
For example I know a girl that has committed fornication with several guys. Just go and sleep with them. She knew adultery was not a good thing, but when I talked to her she said God revealed that her issue was with her relationship with her father as a child, and somehow he was always saying that she was going to fail, which in turn latter caused her to somehow end up in bed with other men.
I was thinking that was pretty lame, because fornication is just what it is. Why did God "Supposedly/ or he could have really" need to reveal all that to her to say that sleeping around is not a good thing? I knew better than to press the issue and just kept quit.
Adam did not have full truth and light in what he did???????????????????????????
I don't think that Garden was in a flawless environment. I fully believe that Adam knew that their were issues, and knew how to do his job in the Garden. He did have things to do, and I am not sure how long he spent with God and getting instructions. It would appear that Adam had a good relationship with God.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Hebrew:
To keep means to guard, protect, a doorman, keep watch. It was more than just pick fruit and enjoy yourself. It was to guard it against something. Not all was well around the Garden, but Adam was given charge to protect that Garden. In my understanding, I fully believe that Adam knew with full understanding what he was up against, and knew there was adversity outside that Garden. Another Hebrew word would have been used if that was not the case.
To Keep:
BDB:
1a1) to keep, have charge of
1a2) to keep, guard, keep watch and ward, protect, save life
1a2a) watch, watchman (participle)
1a3) to watch for, wait for
1a4) to watch, observe
1a5) to keep, retain, treasure up (in memory)
1a6) to keep (within bounds), restrain
Strongs:
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).
I won't argue about Adam knowing after eating the fruit that he found himself naked, and hid himself. I still believe though that Adam knew what he was doing, and that what he was doing was wrong. We don't have to experience Evil to know something is Evil. I also believe he knew who Satan was, as he had to know what he was gaurding against in the Garden. Adam also understood the consequences of eating that fruit.
I have not robbed any banks or steal, because i know that robbing a bank will bring consequences. I don't fully understand what may happen to me, but I know it won't be good.
In Law, we prove someone fit to stand trial by their actions. Did they attempt to cover evidence? If they did then they knew what they did was wrong, though they may be somewhat nuts. Adam did hide after his disobedience, I believe that fruit did do something to Adam, but I also believe he hid because he already knew what God told him about protecting that Garden, and eating that fruit. (He hid not because of what the fruit imparted to him, He hid because he knew what God said before he ate the fruit. Remember the bible said that Adam was not confused.)
Just like robbing a bank, and not knowing exactly what would happen in the amount of prison time, or exact proceedings against you, just like Adam, he knew that no good would come from his disobedience, and did not fully comprehend what the outcome may be. He, like someone that sleeps with someone underage find that out after the crime is committed, but still knew not to commit that crime.
Pretty interesting Fivesense!!!! you make a good case. This is a little more deeper though than just looking at Genesis. Our belief system here is based on who we think God is, and what our understanding of God's character and nature is. Our understanding of the Garden is rooted in who we believe God is. To sort that out, it would take many more pages of thread.
Thank you!!! and be blessed.
Jesus Is Lord.
Sorry Mike, didn't mean to exclude you or your posts. I think you post very well conveying your thoughts and beliefs clearly and this post is very good too especially this last part.
I meet with a couple of guys every Saturday for bible study. Last Saturday one of the fellas made a very good point about God and who He is. So many times we think of love as being one of God's attributes but love is His essence and all His attributes flow out of His essence. I think this realization can help us to discover and realize just how awesome Father is
Thank you Jiggyfly............ sniff....sniff........you blessed me. I feel pretty smart when someone with your scripture knowledge actually does not think I am off my Rocker (sometimes at least)....... You know how us WOF folks get treated......
Now, how can we realize this fully Jiggyfly?? does that fellow you know have any papers he had written?
There were times when I thought I knew................ but when I get corrected because of judgement which I thought was right and in love, made me realize I don't have that concept yet of God's Love, or God is Love. I mean even Paul had to pray that we may know the depth of the Love of Christ........He started off that we may comprehend, then says right after that "Passes knowledge".
Ack!! I want to go back and delete some of my post on the forum now................sigh............
Be blessed Brother...................More than you already are.
Jesus Is Lord.
Now, how can we realize this fully Jiggyfly?? does that fellow you know have any papers he had written?
There were times when I thought I knew................ but when I get corrected because of judgement which I thought was right and in love, made me realize I don't have that concept yet of God's Love, or God is Love. I mean even Paul had to pray that we may know the depth of the Love of Christ........He started off that we may comprehend, then says right after that "Passes knowledge".
Ack!! I want to go back and delete some of my post on the forum now................sigh............
Be blessed Brother...................More than you already are.
Jesus Is Lord.
What that tells me is that God is not ALL powerful if He allowes Satan to do what ever he wishes with his called out people,elect,chosen or what ever He chooses to call them, look at poor Job even God says he was a good man but allowed Satan to do every thing to him but kill him, what kind of love is that, it's like "sorry Job but Satan and I have a bet and I'm trusting you to bear up under it, I'm going to allow him to torture you for a while but afterwords I'll give you back what you had (except your kids) If you were ALL powerful would you allow a good man to suffer if you were LOVE. Or would you say" I did put a hedge around him becaus he honors me, and because I am who I am there is nothing you can do to him: I can understand Jesus suffering because GOD had a greater plan in store for him and He would be going back to where He came from and Jesus knew, it but Job didn't, even as my wife suffered day and night with pain believe me you wouldn't want for 12 years. WHY because God LOVES me more than she? ,right, I don't have half the faith she had...sorry but it dosn't make sense to me....Ray
BigDummy: God bless you. How is your wife now? 12 years is a long time.
Most look at this and lie on how the feel about it. God was testing Job, and made a deal with Satan. God saw that Job passed the test and gave him back double. Now we don't always understand why Does what he does, but he is God and should not question. There was a greater purpose in hurting Job, though Job did serve God.
If that is the case, then there is no Love in God!!!! God sent a hit man out to Murder Job's Children, and caused great sorrow. God could have squashed Satan like a bug, but choose to send a lying monster to do Job harm.
Only confused people believe this, and they only believe it in Church. Go rape and murder their daughter and see if they think it's still Good, and God must have in his wisdom thought it was love to cause that to happen. NO!!!!! They won't................. Only at church do people become dumb and forget what love is.
Bigdummy: The big reason people do not understand Job, is because they don't know God. God is Love, and love would never do what people accuse God of doing. Even in Job's case. No concept of Love.
The bible says that Satan is the god of this world. It has nothing to do with God, and nothing to do with God not being all powerful. God could squash Satan flat in a second, but must honor his word, and the apointed time given. God did give us a way to escape Satan. A devil even tried to rebuke Jesus in the name of God..........(What nerve) because the devil felt that Jesus was going against the apointed time.
Rest assured Bigdummy, God had nothing to do with what happened to Job. God even said the whole thing was without cause, which means God never agreed to any deal with a spirit that can't even tell the truth. (John 8:44)
I have posted on Job before, if you want to know more, I can post again but just P.M me.
If you want healing material for your wife, I can give you links for free stuff.
Jesus Is Lord.
Most look at this and lie on how the feel about it. God was testing Job, and made a deal with Satan. God saw that Job passed the test and gave him back double. Now we don't always understand why Does what he does, but he is God and should not question. There was a greater purpose in hurting Job, though Job did serve God.
If that is the case, then there is no Love in God!!!! God sent a hit man out to Murder Job's Children, and caused great sorrow. God could have squashed Satan like a bug, but choose to send a lying monster to do Job harm.
Only confused people believe this, and they only believe it in Church. Go rape and murder their daughter and see if they think it's still Good, and God must have in his wisdom thought it was love to cause that to happen. NO!!!!! They won't................. Only at church do people become dumb and forget what love is.
Bigdummy: The big reason people do not understand Job, is because they don't know God. God is Love, and love would never do what people accuse God of doing. Even in Job's case. No concept of Love.
The bible says that Satan is the god of this world. It has nothing to do with God, and nothing to do with God not being all powerful. God could squash Satan flat in a second, but must honor his word, and the apointed time given. God did give us a way to escape Satan. A devil even tried to rebuke Jesus in the name of God..........(What nerve) because the devil felt that Jesus was going against the apointed time.
Rest assured Bigdummy, God had nothing to do with what happened to Job. God even said the whole thing was without cause, which means God never agreed to any deal with a spirit that can't even tell the truth. (John 8:44)
I have posted on Job before, if you want to know more, I can post again but just P.M me.
If you want healing material for your wife, I can give you links for free stuff.
Jesus Is Lord.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
God is not limited in His power simply because He does a thing or does not do a thing according to your version of morality.
Will a man judge God? You take too much upon yourself when you rise to the point at which you question God's ethics.
You quoted Job in your post, but you failed to learn the lesson of the whole book. Read it again.
I will paraphrase the lesson at the end for you; What God does and why He does it is none of our business.
A man rising to the point of questioning God is as ridiculous as a bug asking why men build sky scrapers.
If you wish to understand the character of the almighty at all, you must do so within the scope of His revelation in the Bible.
The philosophy of man will never begin to appreciate the character of God; only serve to confuse other men.
Your wife's pain is her issue, not yours. The reason for it is God's, not hers and not yours.
God has provided medications and prayer. Rely upon them to sustain you in bad times and hope in God for good times.
My wife had years of pain as well. We both understand that God saw us through it. He was ever gracious and patient with us (and I can't say the same thing for some of our relatives and acquaintenances).
I am now seeing a doctor about cancer and am awaiting the latest lab results as I write. Why has this happened to me?
As far as God's purpose in it IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS.
I know, however, that He is with me in a strong way and in the end I am satisfied with that.
If the reader thinks they have a problem with the way God is dealing out your cards, I suggest you make peace with Him.
You will NEVER get any satisfactory answers until you do.
And you can take that to the bank.
Strong like bull, powerful like lion, clear like glass, to the point like Everest, hard as nails. All you did was provoke me to worship rjp. It took a long time to stop whining at the Potter, or demanding improvements to the outward vessel. He was looking to move from the inside out, but the mind is a tricky place to dwell. I appreciate your confidence in truth for today and our Sovereign God, Who knows before we even ask.
"I am now seeing a doctor about cancer and am awaiting the latest lab results as I write. Why has this happened to me?
As far as God's purpose in it IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS.
I know, however, that He is with me in a strong way and in the end I am satisfied with that"
The demons and principalities get to act out on our flesh and they remain deceived by reason of their exertions in our realm. They can smell something, the fragrance of the ones baptized into His death, and it enrages them no doubt. There is a home for us, it is occupied with malignant ones and wicked beings for now. But the time of that Serpents' binding is coming soon, and after we usurp him, and take our place with the Christ of God as His complement, then those days of cancer and disease and poverty and sickness will be recompensed according to our faith and surrender to Him during our trials. Then it will matter rjp, it will no longer be "none of my business", but " I see now what was Your business, and we praise Your name"!
Your post did me well.
fivesense
1. God stopped creating on the 7th day in order to allow his creation time to fulfill its purpose. Unfotunately, at some point early on in that 7th day, Adam sinned causing a glitch in the matrix. But Gods purpose had not changed....only the means of reaching that purpose had changed.
Yes, each new child of Adam is born with sin Psalm 51:5 But they are also born with the hope of redemption from that sin based on the promised Seed....Jesus Christ. So God did not 'cause' sin, not was it a part of his will. Evidence for that is in how he has provided mankind a way out of sin. If he wanted us to have sin, then he would never have provided the ransom sacrifice of his son.
Similar threads
