Are We All One In Christ?
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There is one message to Jew and Gentile - all are "in sin" and need to repent, be baptised unto Jesus death,
believing that you also need to receive His Life by receiving His Spirit (as detailed in scripture - Acts 2:4, 33, 39; 10:44-48)
Judaism is likely to be a hindrance becausde they re-interpret prophecy relating to Christ.
They think they are already the people of God so there is no place for repentance.
truthquest
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I'm not sure what you mean by special privileges. Are you referring to the chosen people concept?
Much disturbance and confusion comes when not differentiating between who is the Bride and what is the Body. God has often referred to Israel as unfaithful, adulterous, and betrothed to Him. The figure of a bride applies very well to Israel. When the Lord returns to earth, His Bride will be on earth, resurrected,cleansed and ready to serve Him in spirit and in flesh. Those who not regenerated and born-again of Israel will not be allowed in the Holy City Jerusalem, and their portion will be with the nations who rejected and persecuted His people during the tribulation period. There will be wailing for their losses, and gnashing of teeth with anger over their loss in the Promises and Covenant. The Bride is earthly and terrestrial.
The Body of Christ is the assembly of those who believed on the Lord through Paul's ministry of faith and grace. It is composed of Jew and Gentile on equal footing, serving the Lord in spirit, and as spirit beings transformed into His image when He returns in clouds before the tribulation. They will minister reconciliation in the heavens with Christ, displaying God's manifold wisdom to the powers and principalities that once ruled over them and humanity. The Body will have authority over and above them, commanding obedience and judging their affairs towards the reconciliation of all things in the universe. The Body of Christ is heavenly and spiritual in its form.
In the Body there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, in rank or privilege. All serve God in agreement and in oneness with the Lord.
All the ones in the Body have access to the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
In the manifestation of the Bride, there are the Twelve who rule over the 12 tribes, and the 144,000 who are judges over the earth, and the rest of Israel are priests of the Christ, ministering healing and blessing to the remaining nations on earth. It is through them that access to
God is made for the nations. They will be the channel of blessing to the nations.
There are no special privileges awarded to the Jew who is called out into faith and grace today. His lineage has no bearing on any spiritual matter in God. What was once considered a racial advantage has turned into refuse, as Paul has said, in trade for knowing the excellency of Christ in Spirit. Until the times of the Gentiles is completed, there is no advantage to being a Jew.
fivesense
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Choir Loft
The only special privileges I'm aware of are those attributed to the nation of Israel.
Israel is the only NATION that will be saved, the only promise given to a community of people.
Christians are saved individually and the nations of the gentiles will be judged as sheep vs. goats.
Israel, however, enjoys the grace of God in that they will be saved 'as a nation'.
I think YES (we all one in Christ) and YES (special privileges to those born of Jewish parents)
Scripture clearly states Jew and gentile are ONE in CHRIST but God still has special treatment for Israel even as they remain in unbelief (regarding Christ).
I think that has more to do with God's covenant with Israel (God will keep his promises) in spite of the disobedience of Israel. Romans spells it out fairly clearly.
Is Israel being referred to as the nation? Or does it refer to all those born of Jewish parents ? That I am not sure about. Up till now my mind has always tended to see them as being the same but I retain some nagging doubts along the way. It seems contradictory that so clearly Christ is required unless you are Israel , yet Christ was sent to Israel and for Israel.
At times like that I am glad to be on the Gentile branch grafted into the Olive tree of Israel. I know clearly what part of the tree I hang from
Martin
I think YES (we all one in Christ) and YES (special privileges to those born of Jewish parents)
Scripture clearly states Jew and gentile are ONE in CHRIST but God still has special treatment for Israel even as they remain in unbelief (regarding Christ).
I think that has more to do with God's covenant with Israel (God will keep his promises) in spite of the disobedience of Israel. Romans spells it out fairly clearly.
Is Israel being referred to as the nation? Or does it refer to all those born of Jewish parents ? That I am not sure about. Up till now my mind has always tended to see them as being the same but I retain some nagging doubts along the way. It seems contradictory that so clearly Christ is required unless you are Israel , yet Christ was sent to Israel and for Israel.
At times like that I am glad to be on the Gentile branch grafted into the Olive tree of Israel. I know clearly what part of the tree I hang from
Martin
I hear a lot about the status of Isreal on this forum, but im sorry to say i dont agree with the idea that Isreal and Gentile separate and the Jews are still the chosen ones.
jesus spelt it out black and white that the days of Isreal's special position before God were coming to a close when he said : “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” Matt. 21:43, 45
Yes, Isreal were supposed to be the 'firstfruits' and make up the kingdom of God. But due to their rejection of the Messiah, God had rejected them. Jesus even went so far as to provide them an illustration to show that they would be rejected and why in the illustration of the Vineyard. Mark 12:1-3, 4-5, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11
Notice the clincher is in Mark 12:9 where Jesus says that those cultivators will be done away with (destroyed) because they killed the vinyard owners son. The owner of the vineyard is God and his Son is Jesus.
The Apostle Peter also shows that the new nation of Isreal had become the 'Christians' which included BOTH gentile and jew. In 1Peter 2:7,8,9,10 we see that Peter differentiates between those believing in Jesus and those not believing in him. He points out that the 'builders' (natural Isreal) had rejected the 'head of the corner,” (Jesus) even though they were the ones who were 'appointed' to recieve him.
then he goes on to tell the christians that they were the ones whom God had 'chosen' to become a 'royal priesthood'....that was previously Isreals position, but it was taken away from them as mentioned by Jesus and given to the new christian nation.
Pegg
God made a deal with Israel and they forsake.
God made a deal with the gentiles and they forsake.
God went ahead with mercy .
Mercy for the gentiles.
Why not for Israel also ?
Are we special because we are not Israel?
No , we depend on mercy.
So will Israel.
Romans explains it.
I am not trying to push anything Pegg . Just thinking out loud. I would much prefer to be the only christian on the face of the earth who has it right.
Many times I have been at that point. Only to be corrected. I hate being corrected.
Best regards
Martin.
God made a deal with Israel and they forsake.
God made a deal with the gentiles and they forsake.
God went ahead with mercy .
Mercy for the gentiles.
Why not for Israel also ?
Are we special because we are not Israel?
No , we depend on mercy.
So will Israel.
Romans explains it.
I am not trying to push anything Pegg . Just thinking out loud. I would much prefer to be the only christian on the face of the earth who has it right.
Many times I have been at that point. Only to be corrected. I hate being corrected.
Best regards
Martin.
I dont think the gentiles forsook God...anyone who is not a natural born jew is a gentile and by far the majority of christians are in fact gentiles.
So how could it be said that the gentiles forsook God?
Hi Pegg
I am scratching my head wondering why I wrote it like that. I made an error saying Gentiles forsook God.
The point I think I was trying to make is that even we gentile beleivers ultimately depend on God's mercy (and grace) because we are far from perfect.
That same mercy will be extended to hardened, unbelieving Israel as well. Romans 9 explains it better than I do.
Thanks
Martin
truthquest
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Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Matt. 12 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. [sup]47[/sup] Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
[sup]48[/sup] But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” [sup]49[/sup] And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! [sup]50[/sup] For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Yes i agree that both gentile and jew are both depending on Gods mercy, but his mercy is only freely given to those who make a conscious decision to love and obey his son Jesus.
Any Jew (isrealite) who turn to Christ and put faith in him will have the same opportunity for salvation as we gentiles do.
What we need to realise is that there is no 'distinction' between jew and gentile any longer as Paul explained at Romans 10:12
There was a distinction at one time, and that distinction meant that the Jews were given first priority to enter the kingdom of the heavens. But their refusal to accept Jesus meant that there were not enough of them to fill the numbers for the heavenly kingdom...God had 144,000 places set aside for them in heaven to rule with Christ.
Due to that fact, God allowed the choosing of the gentiles to fill the remainding places in heaven and this is why Paul said that there was no longer a distinction made between the two groups.... Paul said that the 'heart' determines who a true Jews Romans 2:29
We are all one in the eyes of God, both jew and gentile have been combined and God sees us all as the same and gives us the same opportunity that was initially 'reserved' only for the jews.
I think YES (we all one in Christ) and YES (special privileges to those born of Jewish parents)
Scripture clearly states Jew and gentile are ONE in CHRIST but God still has special treatment for Israel even as they remain in unbelief (regarding Christ).
I think that has more to do with God's covenant with Israel (God will keep his promises) in spite of the disobedience of Israel. Romans spells it out fairly clearly.
Is Israel being referred to as the nation? Or does it refer to all those born of Jewish parents ? That I am not sure about. Up till now my mind has always tended to see them as being the same but I retain some nagging doubts along the way. It seems contradictory that so clearly Christ is required unless you are Israel , yet Christ was sent to Israel and for Israel.
At times like that I am glad to be on the Gentile branch grafted into the Olive tree of Israel. I know clearly what part of the tree I hang from
Martin
Can I hear an Amen! brothers and sisters? What a relief.
fivesense
I am going to put this forth to you Pegg, and I consider your appraisal as sound and scripturally intact with the evidence. But I would ask you to take leave of the notion that the other "nation" the Lord speaks of is anything but Hebrew.
Two things to consider:
One, the Lord came to fulfill the promises made with the Hebrew Patriarchs. Though He was aware His death would lead to conciliating the whole world, it was not on the list of things to do from His Father, Who is God. His commission was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers
Paul is pointing out here that prior to His death on Golgatha, the Lord's mission was singularly Jewish. This is rightly dividing.
Two, Peter does not address any Gentiles in his letters. Peter was not commissioned by God to preach to the Gentiles. The testimony of his discipling the nations is disturbing. But Holy Spirit confirms that Peter was no longer under the Lords authority to bring the evangel to the nations or disciple them. Please prayerfully read the following verses of the Word, with a broadened heart towards God, our Father. It is not possible to believe God on this without His special grace.
Ga 2:7 but, on the contrary, having seen that I have been entrusted with the good news of the uncircumcision, as Peter with that of the circumcision,
Ga 2:8 for He who did work with Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, did work also in me in regard to the nations,
Ga 2:9 and having known the grace that was given to me, James, and Cephas, and John, who were esteemed to be pillars, a right hand of fellowship they did give to me, and to Barnabas, that we to the nations, and they to the circumcision may go,
Ga 2:11 . And when Peter came to Antioch, to the face I stood up against him, because he was blameworthy,
Ga 2:12 for before the coming of certain from James, with the nations he was eating, and when they came, he was withdrawing and separating himself, fearing those of the circumcision,
Why the animosity between the Jewish believers and Paul. Because the Jewish believers were not given the Gospel of Grace, they were given the Gospel of the Kingdom on earth. It did not come...It will come, you can be certain of that.
We, the Gentiles, are not the "nation producing its fruit". We could never be Israel of the future, and we should never want to be considering all the spiritual richnesses we have already obtained. The Lord was referring to a future time, beyond the crisis of rejection that was taking hold over the nation, when He returns and sets up His Kingdom after writing His laws on their hearts and in their minds supernaturally.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It does no good to "spiritualize" this passage, it is not allowable to do so without making God a liar. It could've happened 2000 years ago, but it did not, and we got grafted in because of their stubbornness. It is going to happen for them regardless, because God cannot lie about such a thing. He will bring it to pass to glorify His name. The bride of Christ will then become a realilty.
fivesense
There is a conspicuous absense of Paul's doctrines in what you are putting forth here, Pegg. And a few other extra-scriptural ideas that should be looked at. You may have a few loose ends that need tying up before you can take it to the next level. Let me know if you are wondering.
fivesense
Rom 3:1-4
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(KJV)
We are to be very careful in considering this matter about Israelites and Gentiles. A proper reading of Romans 11:1-5 shows that not all Israel rejected God's Plan of Salvation through Christ.
Apostle Paul was very clear God had reserved a remnant of the seed of Israel in Elijah's day, and also that remnant according to the election of grace still existed in Paul's days. That shows continuance of a remnant of the seed of Israel in God's promises, even for today, all the way up to Christ's return and even thereafter.
Also, we must be careful how we interpret that word "Jew" Paul used in Rom.3:1, for Bible and secular history reveals the Jews meant only a portion of total Israel, specifically those of the "house of Judah", (the name actually derived from the sole tribe of Judah).
The small remnant of Jews, like Christ's Apostles, Paul, and the disciples, were only a remnant of the "house of Judah" that went into the Babylon captivity. The majority of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi were taken to Babylon, but only a small remnant of them actually returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and temple (per Book of Ezra). The large majority of the "house of Judah" stayed in Babylon after the 70 years, and then were further scattered through the nations.
Also, the larger portion of Israelites of the ten tribes were ALREADY SCATTERED out of the holy land before Judah's Babylon captivity. That means the LARGER portion of total Israel, being the ten tribes, were not even present in Judea when Christ came to die on the cross. So how could they have rejected Christ at His first coming when they were not even there?
The Bible history about that can easily be read starting at 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17.
So how much of Israel truly rejected our Lord Jesus Christ at His first coming? Not as many as most think and are taught to think.
In the Book of Hosea, God speaking about Ephraim which was head tribe over the northern ten tribes, it was declared how He would scatter the house of Israel (ten tribes) because of her lovers in Baal worship. He would give them the full weight of their false worship and hedge up their paths so they wouldn't find their way back. There would come a time when they would get tired of their Baal lovers and try to turn back, and wouldn't be able to. And God would call them 'lo ami', meaning 'not my people'. They would become lost to theirselves, lost to their Israelite heritage. But then God foretold a time would come when He would remember them, and where they were called lo ami, they would again be called God's people.
In Romans 9, Apostle Paul includes Gentiles in that Message from the Book of Hosea ("Osee"). It's about Israelites and Gentiles, both believing The Gospel together. That remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace is especially about a remnant of the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" that were scattered to the West, and put away their idols to Baal upon hearing The Gospel of Jesus Christ. A time will come when those scattered remnants of the ten tribes to the West will understand their ancestors of Israel once fell away from God, and were scattered to get their fill of false worship to Baal, showing how God had kept His Promise to Israel that He would preserve a remnant of Jacob that would believe. At that time, the whole world will understand how God scattered a remnant of Israel to the West that would become as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, how they became lost to themselves and the world thinking they were Gentiles, when all along they were the larger portion of Israelites all along.
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(KJV)
We are to be very careful in considering this matter about Israelites and Gentiles. A proper reading of Romans 11:1-5 shows that not all Israel rejected God's Plan of Salvation through Christ.
Apostle Paul was very clear God had reserved a remnant of the seed of Israel in Elijah's day, and also that remnant according to the election of grace still existed in Paul's days. That shows continuance of a remnant of the seed of Israel in God's promises, even for today, all the way up to Christ's return and even thereafter.
Also, we must be careful how we interpret that word "Jew" Paul used in Rom.3:1, for Bible and secular history reveals the Jews meant only a portion of total Israel, specifically those of the "house of Judah", (the name actually derived from the sole tribe of Judah).
The small remnant of Jews, like Christ's Apostles, Paul, and the disciples, were only a remnant of the "house of Judah" that went into the Babylon captivity. The majority of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi were taken to Babylon, but only a small remnant of them actually returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city and temple (per Book of Ezra). The large majority of the "house of Judah" stayed in Babylon after the 70 years, and then were further scattered through the nations.
Also, the larger portion of Israelites of the ten tribes were ALREADY SCATTERED out of the holy land before Judah's Babylon captivity. That means the LARGER portion of total Israel, being the ten tribes, were not even present in Judea when Christ came to die on the cross. So how could they have rejected Christ at His first coming when they were not even there?
The Bible history about that can easily be read starting at 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17.
So how much of Israel truly rejected our Lord Jesus Christ at His first coming? Not as many as most think and are taught to think.
In the Book of Hosea, God speaking about Ephraim which was head tribe over the northern ten tribes, it was declared how He would scatter the house of Israel (ten tribes) because of her lovers in Baal worship. He would give them the full weight of their false worship and hedge up their paths so they wouldn't find their way back. There would come a time when they would get tired of their Baal lovers and try to turn back, and wouldn't be able to. And God would call them 'lo ami', meaning 'not my people'. They would become lost to theirselves, lost to their Israelite heritage. But then God foretold a time would come when He would remember them, and where they were called lo ami, they would again be called God's people.
In Romans 9, Apostle Paul includes Gentiles in that Message from the Book of Hosea ("Osee"). It's about Israelites and Gentiles, both believing The Gospel together. That remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace is especially about a remnant of the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" that were scattered to the West, and put away their idols to Baal upon hearing The Gospel of Jesus Christ. A time will come when those scattered remnants of the ten tribes to the West will understand their ancestors of Israel once fell away from God, and were scattered to get their fill of false worship to Baal, showing how God had kept His Promise to Israel that He would preserve a remnant of Jacob that would believe. At that time, the whole world will understand how God scattered a remnant of Israel to the West that would become as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, how they became lost to themselves and the world thinking they were Gentiles, when all along they were the larger portion of Israelites all along.
Care indeed is needed and readily overlooked while rushing to win the prize. See my entry veteren, in a post on the Ten Tribes theory (Apolgetic Forum 6/15/10), should you desire a study opposite of your opinion on the tribal distinctions. While some Christians retain the myth, God has repudiated the falseness of such a teaching through the apostolic offices of Peter and James. It is never mentioned in the Greek Scriptures, nor by the Son of David when he was on earth.
fivesense
There is no advantage to the direct descendants of Abraham, apart from the 144.000 Remnant, innocent ones that will be saved from the wrath of the Day of the Lord.
But as i believe that all innocents have eternity with God anyway they are not receiving something better than others.
The descendants of Abraham like all others need the Atonement for the Sins that Jesus has offered to the entire world. And like the rest of the World rejection of the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus will result in eternal separation from the God of Abraham.
Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
They must say to those who come in the Name of the Lord (followers of Jesus). Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
But as i believe that all innocents have eternity with God anyway they are not receiving something better than others.
The descendants of Abraham like all others need the Atonement for the Sins that Jesus has offered to the entire world. And like the rest of the World rejection of the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus will result in eternal separation from the God of Abraham.
Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
They must say to those who come in the Name of the Lord (followers of Jesus). Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
That's a pretty broad claim when Paul himself wrote the the "Hebrews" - look up the etymology of the word. I don't see where God has repudiated anything, it just takes a little bit of looking sometimes. Some see it, some don't. I'm not going to waste too much time arguing over it because it will become evident one way or another when the proper time comes.
Thank you HammerStone, for participating. Examining the letter to the Hebrews reveals no mention of election, justification, the Body, reconciliation, the joint body of Jew and Gentile, the spritual new creation, and the list goes on and on. That Paul had a hand in its writing is doubtful indeed. And since there is no evidence as to its authorship, which is the way God planned it, your conclusion is not as empirical as you would lead others to believe.
That a Jew, who was commissioned by Paul through the laying on of hands in his early ministry to Israel's dispersed, wrote this letter, seems more the scenario than what is commonly ascribed. The flavor of grace is there, but not the teaching. The paramount importance of faith, as with Abraham, the father Israel in flesh, is pervasive and expounded upon. But the Cross of Christ and the place of the nations is not mentioned in this Hebrew epistle.
Imagination can go a long way in creating something out of nothing, and attributing the authorship of Hebrews to Paul does require a fertile imagination.
fivesense
Additionally," wasting time arguing" is a telling remark as to motivation and perspective. I respect your position and acknowledge your eminence here, and submission to authority is ideal. But let us be cautious to not consider our sufficiency is anywhere outside of God.
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