I have often wondered about this myself, but without knowing one way or the other, I tend to believe he was saved through his repentance and repentant act and also think he may have benn chosen to fulfill this mission. Jesus knew from the beginning that he would be betrayed by one of them and I tend to believe he knew which one.
Judas' Fate
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I have often wondered about this myself, but without knowing one way or the other, I tend to believe he was saved through his repentance and repentant act and also think he may have benn chosen to fulfill this mission. Jesus knew from the beginning that he would be betrayed by one of them and I tend to believe he knew which one.
Mercy777
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I also leave this in the Lord's hands as far as Judas fate, however the scripture is clear, he did not repent after murdering himself.
As the inccident of Peter, he also betrayed the Lord as well as the remaining disciples, same betrayal, they scattered from Jesus. Peter especially for he had said with his own words twice,
Matt. 26 :
[sup]33[/sup]Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will." [sup]34[/sup]"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." [sup]35[/sup]But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.
They all disowned him as their Lord, they all betrayed Him, just as we have. They repented and fought the good fight for they truly believed they had been forgiven in Christ Crucified and raised in His Resurrection. Just as us, we have betrayed Christ and I would never murder myself and think before I did the act, this is okay, I'm still going to heaven? Oh, Lord, forgive me, but I am going to murder your child, and carry the act out. Our bodies are not our own.
If Judas had truly believed in all the Master spoke (Judas lived with Christ) and if Judas had believed the Master was in him, he never would have murdered himself.
This is also why Jesus spoke,
John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." Judas knew exactly what he was doing, no excuse for choosing to ignore when you had lived with Jesus, seen all His miracles of healing. Pilate didn't even know Jesus personally or His message.
Judas tasted Christ.
It is not my business to know Judas fate, only for me not to do what Judas did and especially not to give up on my Savior, who never has given up on me and gave His own life for me.. There is a future hope for us in Christ and Christ alone and this is what I would preach to anyone I knew was even thinking about suicide.
Also as one who has personally experienced this with a parent who was preached the gospel of Christ continually and minutes before their self death call and say "I love you", that is not love. However their act does not keep me from loving them.
It is always better to love and lose, then to never have loved. And in my heart, Judas didn't do any worse than what most of us have done to Christ. Thank you Lord for saving me from myself!
All Glory to Christ.
Mercy
Mercy777
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Actually that is a discrepency. Is remorse, repentence? This is the scripture...
Matthew 27:3
When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
Greek is-- V-APP-NSM
Having repented
Then Judas, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself - This shows that Judas did not suppose that the affair would have resulted in this calamitous manner. He probably expected that Jesus would work a miracle to deliver himself, and not suffer this condemnation to come upon him. When he saw him taken, bound, tried, and condemned - when he saw that all probability that he would deliver himself was taken away - he was overwhelmed with disappointment, sorrow, and remorse. The word rendered "repented himself," it has been observed, does not of necessity denote a change "for the better," but "any" change of views and feelings. Here it evidently means no other change than that produced by the horrors of a guilty conscience, and by deep remorse for crime at its unexpected results. It was not saving repentance. That leads to a holy life this led to an increase of crime in his own death. True repentance leads the sinner to the Saviour. This led away from the Saviour to the gallows. Judas, if he had been a true penitent, would have come then to Jesus; would have confessed his crime at his feet, and sought for pardon there. But, overwhelmed with remorse and the conviction of vast guilt, he was not willing to come into his presence, and added to the crime of treason that of self-murder. Assuredly such a man could not be a true penitent. Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Judas - when he saw that he was condemned, repented - There is much of the wisdom and goodness of God to be seen in this part of Judas's conduct. Had our Lord been condemned to death on the evidence of one of his own disciples, it would have furnished infidels with a strong argument against Christ and the Christian religion. "One of his own disciples, knowing the whole imposture, declared it to the Jewish rulers, in consequence of which he was put to death as an impostor and deceiver." But the traitor, being stung with remorse, came and acknowledged his crime, and solemnly declared the innocence of his Master, threw back the money which they gave him to induce him to do this villainous act; and, to establish the evidence which he now gave against them and himself, in behalf of the innocence of Christ, hanged himself, or died through excessive grief and contrition. Thus the character of Christ was rescued from all reproach; infidelity deprived of the power to cry "imposture!" and the Jewish rulers overwhelmed with eternal infamy. If it should ever be said, "One who knew him best delivered him up as an impostor," - to this it may be immediately answered, "The same person, struck with remorse, came and declared his own guilt, and Christ's innocence; accused and convicted the Jewish rulers, in the open council, of having hired him to do this iniquitous action, threw them back the bribe they had given him, and then hanged himself through distress and despair, concluding his iniquity in this business was too great to be forgiven." Let him who chooses, after this plenary evidence to the innocence of Christ, continue the objection, and cry out imposture! take heed that he go not and do Likewise. Caiaphas, Pilate, and Judas have done so already, and I have known several, who have called Christ an impostor, who have cut their own throats, shot, drowned, or hanged themselves. God is a jealous God, and highly resents every thing that is done and said against that eternal truth that came to man through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit. Indeed, there is one class of Deists, viz. those who are vicious in their lives, and virulent in their opposition to Christianity, who generally bring themselves to an untimely end. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Then Judas, which had betrayed him,.... Before, he is described as he that shall, or should, or doth betray him; but now having perpetrated the horrid sin, as he that had done it.
When he saw that he was condemned; that is, that Jesus was condemned, as the Syriac and Persic versions read, either by the Jewish sanhedrim, or by Pilate, or both; for this narrative concerning Judas may be prophetically inserted here, though the thing itself did not come to pass till afterwards; and the sense be, that when he, either being present during the whole procedure against Christ; or returning in the morning after he had received his money, and had been with his friends; finding that his master was condemned to death by the sanhedrim, who were pushing hard to take away his life; that they had delivered him bound to the Roman governor; and that he, after an examination of him, had committed him to the soldiers to mock, and scourge, and crucify him; and seeing him leading to the place of execution,
repented himself: not for the sin, as committed against God and Christ; but as it brought a load of present guilt and horror upon his mind, and exposed him to everlasting punishment: it was not such a repentance by which he became wiser and better; but an excruciating, tormenting pain in his mind, by which he became worse; therefore a different word is here used than what commonly is for true repentance: it was not a godly sorrow for sin, or a sorrow for sin, as committed against God, which works repentance to salvation not to be repented of; but a worldly sorrow, which issues in death, as it did in him. It did not spring from the love of God, as evangelical repentance does, nor proceed in the fear of God, and his goodness; but was no other than a foretaste of that worm that dieth not, and of that fire which cannot be quenched: it was destitute of faith in Christ; he never did believe in him as the rest of the disciples did; see John 6:64, and that mourning which does not arise from looking to Jesus, or is not attended with faith in him, is never genuine. Judas's repentance was without hope of forgiveness, and was nothing else but horror and black despair, like that of Cain's, like the trembling of devils, and the anguish of damned souls. It looks as if Judas was not aware that it would issue in the death of Christ: he was pushed on by Satan, and his avarice, to hope, that he should get this money, and yet his master escape; which he imagined he might do, either through such a defence of himself, as was not to be gainsaid; or that he would find out ways and means of getting out of the hands of the Jews, as he had formerly done, and with which Judas was acquainted: but now, there being no hope of either, guilt and horror seize his mind, and gnaw his conscience; and he wishes he had never done the accursed action, which had entailed so much distress and misery upon him: and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders: which was the sum he; had covenanted for, and they had agreed to give him, on condition of delivering Jesus into their hands, which he had done: and it appears from hence, that the money had been accordingly paid him, and he had received it. But he being filled with remorse of conscience for what he had done, feels no quietness in his mind; nor could he save of what he had desired, but is obliged to return it; not from an honest principle, as in the case of true repentance, but on account of a racking and torturing conscience.
Selene
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There are also instances in the Bible showing our Lord forgiving even when repentance was not shown. As Christ was dying on the cross, He forgave the Roman soldiers who nailed Him to the cross despite that the Roman soldiers did not repent. The Roman soldiers were ignorant and did not know who Christ was. On the cross, Christ asked His Father, "Forgive them for they know not what they do." The adulterous woman was also forgiven by Christ despite her silence. There was no indication that she even felt remorse, but Christ did not condemn her. It is possible that in her heart, the adulterous woman had remorse because she was going to be stoned to death. But after she was forgiven and given this second chance, there is an even greater possibility that she changed her life around.
John 8:7-11 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst.Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.
Only God can judge, and God can have mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy. The Bible says that Judas went to his own place. That does not tell us much.
John 8:7-11 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst.Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.
Only God can judge, and God can have mercy on whomever He wants to have mercy. The Bible says that Judas went to his own place. That does not tell us much.
Mercy777
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Yes, this is why I spoke, what happened pertaining to Judas fate is God's business. Only God knows the true heart.
And we do know that Judas murdered himself and we do not hear of the woman doing this. So there is a reason why Judas' deed is mentioned.. Also the woman responding, "no one Lord", she acknowledged who Jesus was. And the original greek response is lord or master.
Also in John 8 the teachers of the law and the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus into anything, so they could accuse him of breaking the law. Jesus knew this and also the law states the man and the woman who are caught in adultery are to be stoned to death-where was the man who committed adultery with her? The whole incident was a trap and Jesus turned it into his saving grace.
God Bless,
Mercy
Selene
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Hello Mercy,
That is true that we don't hear of the woman committing suicide. We also don't know if she actually followed Jesus' command and stop committing adultery. The Bible does not say. However, I would tend to think that if it was me who was that close to death and given a second chance, I would not throw that second chance away. I also think that Judas knew who Christ was, but I also think that he was in so much despair that he did not deserve to live. Many people contemplating suicide often think this way and they don't see the light at the end of their problems. They don't even realize the devastating impact their suicide would have on their family members simply because they were in so much despair. I know because I had three close cousins who committed suicide, and I had a 14 year old student who committed suicide. They were all very young.
In a way, I'm glad that Judas' suicide was mentioned because there is a lesson to be learned from that. If Judas had not committed suicide, he would have witnessed Christ's resurrection. He missed out on that and all the opportunities that God had for him. The message here that I would send to the youth (since I am a teacher) is that whatever problems there are facing, it is not the end of the world and the problems are not there to stay forever. We have trials and problems in our lives for a reason. There is hope and a solution to every problem. To those in despair and contemplating suicide, their hope is in Christ. Suicide is not the answer, and that is the lesson Judas brought to us.
In Christ,
Selene
Mercy777
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Hello Selene,
I agree wholeheartedly, I also had more than just one love one pass from suicide and many that tried after the one closest to me.. And yes again it is very devastating, it takes years to work out. Jesus is our hope and I will tell anyone their is the Light that will give them grace in their time of need, Jesus is just a knee away.
When my own inccident occurred I remember my Dad holding my hand tight and looking straight into my eyes and saying, " I would never do that to you", and I replied the same back to him. I knew he loved me enough to keep going on and I loved him the same. The promise, so beautiful in every way, Jesus. I thank God everyday for being able to read his words and the ability to see how all the lessons he has given to us are His goodness in everyway.
Thank you and God Bless you,
Mercy
I'm not so sure Judas Iscariot ever repented of his role in Christ's death. If he did, I don't see it in the pages of scripture.
And Jesus seems to indicate Judas was not a believer.
John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil?"
John tells us Jesus was speaking of Judas.
Later, Jesus seems to indicate Judas was lost but the others were not.
John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
So there is at least a case to be made for Judas having not repented at all, even though he was remorseful for having betrayed Jesus (but I'm no theologian).
Any thoughts on these two passages?
And Jesus seems to indicate Judas was not a believer.
John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil?"
John tells us Jesus was speaking of Judas.
Later, Jesus seems to indicate Judas was lost but the others were not.
John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Judas); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
So there is at least a case to be made for Judas having not repented at all, even though he was remorseful for having betrayed Jesus (but I'm no theologian).
Any thoughts on these two passages?
Selene
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Hello pgfinest,
Judas was a believer because he was a disciple of Christ. He was a follower of Jesus and called by Christ to be one of His Apostles. Yes, Satan entered Judas, but Satan also entered St. Peter (See Matthew 16:23). Judas is no different than most of us. Many of us are believers of Jesus Christ, but many of us also have a love for money like Judas. Judas' weakness was for money. He betrayed our Lord for money. The love of money is a weakness that most humans have. How many times do we depend on our bank account to get us through paying a debt rather than God? Toward the end, Judas realized his sin and regretted it. He felt remorse for what he had done. There are also many of us who feel this kind of remorse. For example, a man who committed adultery and later felt remorse can feel so bad about it. He can feel that he doesn't deserve any forgiveness from his wife for his adultery. Judas may have felt this kind of remorse. A feeling so overwhelming that he feels that he does not deserve God's forgiveness despite the fact that God loves him enough even to forgive him. As Christians, we pray for God's mercy on those who committed suicide.
In Christ,
Selene
Mercy777
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Hello pgfinest 2002,
I had looked up the original greek for "remorse" and it had stated "repent".
I had not thought of of the scripture in John 17. or John 6. Good scripture.
Judas may have repented but did he repent to Christ, for Christ is the one he betrayed. Did Judas repent from the heart, a new creation in Christ? Turn from his life of sin as the other disciples. No, we know this because he comitted suicide. Jesus himself said the word, "but" and the original greek for perdition is " destruction, loss". Jesus stating he is a devil says it all.
This is really hard when Christ is in one's heart, to accept one is lost after death, least it is for me. When we don't know, there is always that hope in Christ.
Thank you and God Bless,
Mercy
Yes Mercy.
It appears Judas was "lost." I looked up the phrase "son of perdition" and it only applies to two people: Judas and and the Antichrist.
And you are right Mercy about the use of the word perdition and what it means.
If we look at the way the word is used in the NT, it leaves little wiggle room about Judas' fate. Here is where the word is used:
John 17:12 of Judas
Phillipians 1:28 of the adversaries of the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 of Antichrist.
I Timothy 6:9 of those who loved money.
Hebrews 10:39 , 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 17:8 and 17:11.
Plus Jesus says very clearly in John 17:12 that Judas was lost. The other disciples, although they ALL betrayed Him (especially Peter) remained and saw Jesus rise from the dead, were forgiven and were His tools for spreading the Good News. Judas was not among their number, as Peter tells us in Acts 1:16-26.
Verse 25 is very significant, IMO, as Peter says:
v. 24-25 -
And they prayed and said, Thou Lord which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."
But good points by you both. The only thing I disagree with is that Judas was a believer. There is substantial proof from both Jesus and Judas' own actions that he was not a believer in Jesus.
It appears Judas was "lost." I looked up the phrase "son of perdition" and it only applies to two people: Judas and and the Antichrist.
And you are right Mercy about the use of the word perdition and what it means.
If we look at the way the word is used in the NT, it leaves little wiggle room about Judas' fate. Here is where the word is used:
John 17:12 of Judas
Phillipians 1:28 of the adversaries of the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 of Antichrist.
I Timothy 6:9 of those who loved money.
Hebrews 10:39 , 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 17:8 and 17:11.
Plus Jesus says very clearly in John 17:12 that Judas was lost. The other disciples, although they ALL betrayed Him (especially Peter) remained and saw Jesus rise from the dead, were forgiven and were His tools for spreading the Good News. Judas was not among their number, as Peter tells us in Acts 1:16-26.
Verse 25 is very significant, IMO, as Peter says:
v. 24-25 -
And they prayed and said, Thou Lord which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."
But good points by you both. The only thing I disagree with is that Judas was a believer. There is substantial proof from both Jesus and Judas' own actions that he was not a believer in Jesus.
This question has troubled me for many years. I tended to believe that yes, because he "repented" and returned the money he was saved, but I have no way of knowing if he ever repented, asked for forgiveness from the One he had wronged (Jesus) and of course the Scriputues do not indicate that he did.
Therefore, the question remained, was I just hoping he had repented and was forgiven, or am I forced to face the fact that Judas was merely sorry about what he had done -- like so many criminals today who are really sorry because they got caught.
And I was always thinking about the thief who died on a cross next to Christ that day who said less than 10 words to the Saviour, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." He had no opportunity to return anything he may have taken as a thief, if that was his crime, yet Jesus forgave him on the spot and told him he would be in paradise that day. What's the difference between the two? I believe Jesus knows the heart, intent, and thoughts of a person.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that Judas was lost from the beginning and Jesus knew it because Jesus knew his heart. Some people, like Judas, are sorry for something they have done, but is there true repentance and sorrow over their sin and a seeking of forgiveness from the one harmed? We have nothing in Scripture that indicates this was the case with Judas. I believe from the very beginning this man who handled the group's money had an inordinate love for money, which , of course, "is the root of all evil."
Therefore, the question remained, was I just hoping he had repented and was forgiven, or am I forced to face the fact that Judas was merely sorry about what he had done -- like so many criminals today who are really sorry because they got caught.
And I was always thinking about the thief who died on a cross next to Christ that day who said less than 10 words to the Saviour, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." He had no opportunity to return anything he may have taken as a thief, if that was his crime, yet Jesus forgave him on the spot and told him he would be in paradise that day. What's the difference between the two? I believe Jesus knows the heart, intent, and thoughts of a person.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that Judas was lost from the beginning and Jesus knew it because Jesus knew his heart. Some people, like Judas, are sorry for something they have done, but is there true repentance and sorrow over their sin and a seeking of forgiveness from the one harmed? We have nothing in Scripture that indicates this was the case with Judas. I believe from the very beginning this man who handled the group's money had an inordinate love for money, which , of course, "is the root of all evil."
Mercy777
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Dear pgfinest2002,
I totally agree with Judas as a non-believer, the proof in his last actions and I think I may have briefed on this alittle in a previous reply, inadvertently. How could Judas have believed Christ would/could save him, he murdered himself. Also the life Judas led while with Christ, there are a few instances of him taking money and being concerned about how much the perfumed oil cost that so preciously was used to prepare Christ for his burial. Sad state of affairs for one living with the very Son of God.
I truly believe Peter and the other disciples clung to the hope, Jesus was who He claimed to be. Reminds me of that song, "Run to Jesus".
Thank you pg for the scripture. It is sad and I have encountered this as Paul,
Romans 9:3
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race,
And Christ in me has learned that no matter how much we know someone is lost, we never stop loving them and that comes to mind...
Jude 1:23
snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Which makes preaching the Gospel an extremely serious mission and without delay. Jesus never detered from His mission, saving souls, even today.
Honor and Glory to Jesus!
God bless you pg,
Mercy
Selene
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My brother, Judas was a believer of Christ. As you see from the scripture you quoted, St. Peter recognized Judas ministry and apostleship despite that he fell into transgression. He was called by Christ to be an Apostle, and he was recognized as an Apostle even by the other 11 Apostles. Judas' apostleship was replaced by another. His position was not abandoned. If we are to judge whether a person is a believer or not based on their own actions, then everyone is a non-believer because all people have sinned through their own actions.
We know from Scripture that Judas was very remorseful. He did repent as Mercy pointed out. There is another view from one of the Early Father about Judas Iscariot. Origen, who was an Early Church Father of the 2nd Century, supposed that Judas hanged himself in order to seek Christ in the other world to ask His forgiveness. This may be the reason why the Bible says that Judas went "to his own place." "His own place" does not indicate that Judas is in Hell or Heaven. This is why we cannot judge, and we really don't know if he is in Hell or not. Only God can judge because only He knows the human heart.
In Christ,
Selene
Mercy777
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I totally agree with this Tzara and I have even thought about this when some repent before death and a verse is spoken, and the minister says they are saved. Christ knows the heart
.
Also the thief on the cross believed and defended Christ, by saying this man has done nothing wrong and admitted he, himself deserved his punishment. In the thief's last breaths, hanging on a cross, he defended God. Pretty awesome!
Luke 23:
[sup]40[/sup]But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? [sup]41[/sup]We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." [sup]42[/sup]Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." [sup]43[/sup]Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Glory to Jesus!
God Bless,
Mercy
How do we reconcile Judas being a believer with Jesus' own words that Judas was not? Jesus called Judas a "devil" (John 6:70). In John 6:64, John writes: "But there are some of you who believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not and who should betray Him."
It was Jesus' own words in John 17:12 where the Lord Himself said none of them "is lost, but (or except) the son of perdition".
That was Judas. Those are Jesus' words, not mine.
What are we to do with those statements?
Selene
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Judas believed in God just like Satan also believed in God. According to the letter of St. James, it says that Satan also believed in God (See James 2:19). Judas' faith was weak. Satan, on the other hand, had no faith. Faith is much more than just believing in God's existance. There are some believers who are lost sheep.
In Christ,
Selene
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I don't believe Judas was ever a believer that Jesus was the Christ, certainly not the Christ presented in OT scripture. But I'll add one additional verse that deals with Judas and it comes from Jesus again, this time in Matthew 26:23-24. Just for reference:
"And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray Me. The Son of Man goeth as it is written of Him: but WOE unto that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."
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