DIFFERENT MINISTRIES

Doug · Oct 27, 2020

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jesus was a minister to the circumcision, Israel.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Paul was the minister to the Gentiles.

justbyfaith · Oct 27, 2020

Personally, I have been circumcised and yet my parents never told me of a Jewish lineage.

Where do I fall in this understanding of things?

Mungo · Oct 27, 2020

Doug said:
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jesus was a minister to the circumcision, Israel.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Paul was the minister to the Gentiles.

There you go again pitting Paul against Jesus.
Moreover the words that the KJV translates as minster/ministering are three different Greek words.

The RSV does a proper translation.
Rom 15:8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,
Rom 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Randy Kluth · Oct 27, 2020

Doug said:
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Jesus was a minister to the circumcision, Israel.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Paul was the minister to the Gentiles.

Paul and Christ became ministers to both the "circumcision" and the "uncircumcision." In other words, in Christianity circumcision is no longer required. Circumcised and uncircumcised simply refer to different classes of people--Jews and Gentiles. Christ ministers to both, because circumcision no longer separates them as a religious requirement.

Enoch111 · Oct 27, 2020

Doug said:
Jesus was a minister to the circumcision, Israel...Paul was the minister to the Gentiles.

And why did you omit Peter. In any event your basic premise is totally flawed.

1. While Christ came to Israel, He ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles (as we see in the Gospels).

2. While Peter was commissioned as apostle to the Jews, he ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

3. While Paul was commissioned as apostle to the Gentiles, he ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

You are constantly trying to pit Christ against Paul, and the apostles against each other. That is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

ChristisGod · Oct 27, 2020

Enoch111 said:
And why did you omit Peter. In any event your basic premise is totally flawed.

1. While Christ came to Israel, He ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles (as we see in the Gospels).

2. While Peter was commissioned as apostle to the Jews, he ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

3. While Paul was commissioned as apostle to the Gentiles, he ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

You are constantly trying to pit Christ against Paul, and the apostles against each other. That is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

Agreed !

People try and pit James against Paul with the faith/works argument. They are saying the same thing just in different ways. Faith without works is dead just like Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 just worded differently. Genuine works are a result of a living faith. A dead faith has no real works, no fruit just like a dead tree. A good tree produces good fruit/works.

Randy Kluth · Oct 27, 2020

Enoch111 said:
And why did you omit Peter. In any event your basic premise is totally flawed.

1. While Christ came to Israel, He ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles (as we see in the Gospels).

2. While Peter was commissioned as apostle to the Jews, he ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

3. While Paul was commissioned as apostle to the Gentiles, he ministered to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

You are constantly trying to pit Christ against Paul, and the apostles against each other. That is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

You're right.. Paul used to say, "to the Jew 1st, and also to the Greek." If anything is clear about Paul, he did not discriminate. The wall of partition between Jew and Gentile under the Law had come down. One could still differentiate them by the custom of circumcision, but as far as God went, it was meaningless. It was a relic of the past. In the NT it certainly may be done for whatever reason. But it is no longer part of God's covenant with Israel. His covenant today with all men is the same--it is the covenant of Christ.

Doug · Oct 28, 2020

Mungo said:
There you go again pitting Paul against Jesus.

Just contrasting scripture to see differences.

Doug · Oct 28, 2020

Enoch111 said:
You are constantly trying to pit Christ against Paul, and the apostles against each other. That is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.

Just comparing and contrasting scripture.

Mungo · Oct 28, 2020

Doug said:
Just contrasting scripture to see differences.

Using a lousy translation

Try responding to the rest of may post:
Moreover the words that the KJV translates as minster/ministering are three different Greek words.

The RSV does a proper translation.
Rom 15:8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,
Rom 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

justbyfaith · Oct 28, 2020

I was thinking recently on this subject...

And I was thinking that circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing according to scripture (1 Corinthians 7:18-19).

Therefore, when we see that Paul has his ministry to the uncircumcision, and Peter to the circumcision (Galatians 2:7), there is no difference in the outcome of each respective gospel...the result in both cases will be the holiness of the believer.

In the gospel of the uncircumcision, the believer is not under the law and therefore Romans 3:10-18 does not apply to him (see verse 19).

In the gospel to the circumcision, the heart is circumcised and therefore the sinful nature is cut away from the believer (Colossians 2:11 (nlt)).

I would say, also, that in Galatians 1:6-9, Paul is telling those who have received the gospel to the uncircumcision to not attempt to save those who come to them preaching the gospel to the circumcision. Because engaging with them will only result in confusion to the gospel of the uncircumcision that has been preached to them. Which is not to say that the gospel to the circumcision is invalid or that those who preach it are truly accursed. It is simply saying that if you think them to be unsaved because of the gospel that they believe in, let them be...there is no need to attempt to win them to the gospel of the uncircumcision...if you count those who believe in that gospel to be accursed, let them be accursed...don't try to win them to your point of view...

Doug · Oct 29, 2020

Mungo said:
Using a lousy translation

Try responding to the rest of may post:
Moreover the words that the KJV translates as minster/ministering are three different Greek words.

The RSV does a proper translation.
Rom 15:8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,
Rom 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

How do you see this preferred translation of yours altering anything?

Mungo · Oct 29, 2020

Doug said:
How do you see this preferred translation of yours altering anything?

By translating different Greek words to the same English word it makes it sound as if Paul was talking about the same thing. That is distorting scripture. If Paul meant the same thing he would have used the same words.

101G · Oct 29, 2020

addressing the OP, good post and topic. I will use two course of scripture, one OT, and the other the NT.

OT. Deuteronomy 10:16 "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

NOW IS THIS JUST FOR THE JEWS ONLY?...... lets see.

NT. Romans 2:28 and verse 29.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

justbyfaith · Oct 30, 2020

Rom 2:25, For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26, Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27, And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28, For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29, But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Doug · Oct 30, 2020

Mungo said:
By translating different Greek words to the same English word it makes it sound as if Paul was talking about the same thing. That is distorting scripture. If Paul meant the same thing he would have used the same words.

I think picking on word translations could be a rabbit trail...it could.... dilute scripture...it may well be a matter of copy write..I do not wish to pursue this as a matter of discussion.

Jay Ross · Oct 31, 2020

Doug said:
I think picking on word translations could be a rabbit trail...it could.... dilute scripture...it may well be a matter of copy write..I do not wish to pursue this as a matter of discussion.

The argument of people who do not take the time to validate the particular English paraphrased translation that they reference to justify their claims/conclusions.

Doug has a particular bias, just like everyone else has.

The question that @Mungo is asking is, Does the paraphrased English translation convey the same context of the original Greek text in the the English paraphrase that is being used to justify the person's understanding.

Many members often express their belief that the English Paraphrased translation that they prefer is infallible in their eyes and therefore their translation should not be questioned.

There is a place to know when further discussion is unprofitable in a thread and to fold your hand at that stage.

Taken · Oct 31, 2020

Circumcision;
introduced By God to OT men-

Circumcision;
At the Very Depth of the matter;
Has always been the ABOUT the very LIFE of a natural CREATED man, becoming Supernaturally MADE Reconcilled TO a Spirit God.

A Natural man's LIFE is his BLOOD.
The HEART maintains the operation of the BLOOD.

The crux of the matter has Always been About a man's WILLINGNESS / To Freely Choose For God TO MAKE the man supernaturally Acceptable TO God.

Acceptable TO God, Has Always HINGED on the man's WILLINGNESS TO BELIEVE in The Heavenly God and His Word and His Power.

God OFFERS- man the Opportunity to Believe-
Through Knowledge/Word Given;
Through Prophecy Foretold;
Through Foretelling SEEN coming to pass.

Man who Acknowledges;
Man who Accredits God for the Acts Seen;
Results in: Man's Willingness to Declare Belief.

The Lord God Does All the MAKING of a Supernatural Change WITHIN a willing man...
Specifically...pertaining to a natural MANS LIFE...
* The Very Vessel that Maintains man's LIFE-
THE HEART.

* It has Always BEEN Gods Act to supernaturally CIRCUMCISE the Heart of a man, willing to Confess Belief in God.

Deut. 30:
[6] And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Man in Agreement- circumcised his Foreskin.

Gen 7:
[11] And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

circumcision - Since Jesus' arrival on Earth

• Man's Agreement- Forskin circumcision ??
No. Man's Willingness to BE Supernaturally CRUCIFIED (WHOLE body) with Jesus the Christ.

• Christ the Lord Jesus' RESPONSE??
Circumcision of the Heart.
• Gives man, A NEW Heart.
• A NEW Truth.
• A NEW Seed.
• A New spirit.
(More gifts)

Col 2:
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Ezek 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezek .36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The BIG PICTURE- Always Hangs ON a Pivotal Moment OF:
The WILLINGNESS of a man To Hear, To believe, To CONFESS a True Belief...

The Lord God Responds: with His Power TO MAKE the Supernatural Changes TO that man.

• Circumcision of the Heart, is only one of the numerous Changes "the Lord God Supernaturally MAKES" within a willing man.

Glory to God,
Taken

ChristisGod · Oct 31, 2020

Doug said:
Just comparing and contrasting scripture.

by contrast do you mean that some writers and or books in the NT are in opposition to each other or for instance that Paul and James are in disagreement when it come to faith ?

Doug · Oct 31, 2020

Christophany said:
by contrast do you mean that some writers and or books in the NT are in opposition to each other or for instance that Paul and James are in disagreement when it come to faith ?

Yes Paul and James are....they are not wrong however....Paul is given this dispensation of grace, his gospel and doctrine revealed to him in regard to the body of Christ...James is writing to Israel and writing in regard to their gospel and doctrines given them to enter the kingdom on earth.

DIFFERENT MINISTRIES

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