entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

brightfame52 said:

I'm not having any difficulty. All the legal ramifications and blessings of the death of Christ are applied to the Sheep before they are born.

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In other words, you're predestinarian? I am, as well. But we may word things differently, and see things somewhat differently. Let me know... What I'm not is a fatalist. I don't believe God has predetermined that people choose against Him. Is that where we differ?

Randy Kluth said:

In other words, you're predestinarian? I am, as well. But we may word things differently, and see things somewhat differently. Let me know... What I'm not is a fatalist. I don't believe God has predetermined that people choose against Him. Is that where we differ?

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We have not discussed anything about predestination. I'm speaking of the Legal aspect of the death of Christ for His People. Are you familiar with that?

Randy Kluth said:

Maybe this is as clear as mud, but sometimes that's the best I can do!

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I think where you write "having the correct virtue" I would write, who chose to believe, something like that.

Randy Kluth said:

And to properly receive eternal life one must honestly repent of the autonomous human life in favor of a life lived in fellowship with Christ and in dependency upon him.

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I think this is the core of what we do becoming reborn. That this is the repentance God wants. A repudiation of "me". And then He makes us new.

Much love!

justbyfaith said:

Only those who were born again of the Holy Spirit (see Romans 3:12).

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I don't believe that. Men, including Cain, have always been able to do good. And Cain was referred to as a child of the evil one.

In my view, it is *God's word* that speaks to the consciences of men universally, and it is God's word that enables them to obey. But some men only obey God's command to do good works, and do not obey God's command to put all the works of the flesh to death. To do that they have to obey the Spirit's call to embrace Jesus as Savior.

Clearly, men can do good without being born again. There will be different shades of men in outer darkness--less stripes for those who have done more good. But why would anyone choose to live in the outer darkness except that they don't want to give their whole life over to Jesus' control?

brightfame52 said:

We have not discussed anything about predestination. I'm speaking of the Legal aspect of the death of Christ for His People. Are you familiar with that?

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I'm familiar with most everything. In my view an extreme view of sanctification leads to predestination. But it certainly doesn't have to for everybody.

Randy Kluth said:

I'm familiar with most everything. In my view an extreme view of sanctification leads to predestination. But it certainly doesn't have to for everybody.

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That's your opinion. I'm speaking about the legal aspect of the death of Christ at this time. When He died the legal aspects of Christ death are immediately applied even before they are born. People He died for were reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10 that shows His death had been applied to them. For not all are reconciled to God while being enemies. Did you realize that?

Randy Kluth said:

I don't believe that. Men, including Cain, have always been able to do good. And Cain was referred to as a child of the evil one.

In my view, it is *God's word* that speaks to the consciences of men universally, and it is God's word that enables them to obey. But some men only obey God's command to do good works, and do not obey God's command to put all the works of the flesh to death. To do that they have to obey the Spirit's call to embrace Jesus as Savior.

Clearly, men can do good without being born again. There will be different shades of men in outer darkness--less stripes for those who have done more good. But why would anyone choose to live in the outer darkness except that they don't want to give their whole life over to Jesus' control?

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Cains works are known to be evil in scripture

1 Jn 3 12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jude 1 11

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

justbyfaith said:

So how is it that you can deny the plain teaching of Romans 3:12 when it is clearly set before you?

Do you have some other scripture that tells you that Romans 3:12 is somehow null and void?

Does the scripture contradict itself?

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Yes, this is the Scripture that seems to throw everybody off. Paul frequently uses examples--sometimes hyperboles--to demonstrate a point. In this case, he shows how Israel is completely engulfed in sin as a nation--a nation that had formerly been called to be a completely righteous nation.

So one has to ask himself: how can a righteous nation eventually become completely profligate and corrupt, to the nth degree? Paul's argument is that we all have a nature that is susceptible to the influence of sin. If Adam and Eve were susceptible to the temptation of the serpent, then all Israel was susceptible to corruption and apostasy.

Paul was not arguing that all men have to descend into the abyss of complete depravity. He was only showing that if at a time in Israel's history such a thing happened, then certainly all men are susceptible to sin. If a righteous nation can fall, then all men, pagan or not, can fall!

In other words, Paul was saying that all men in Israel *at that time* had developed horrible mouths and wicked actions. He was not saying that all men have to do this, but that since all men at one time did, then all men at all times can!

We are all stained with sin, and are excluded from the Kingdom of God unless we are cleansed by God. Even if we are righteous, we still need the atonement of Christ to be given entry into the Kingdom of God.

And this is because sin is in us, and renders us not only capable of great sin, but also guilty of the smallest sins. All sin excludes us from the Kingdom of God. It does not require the greatest sins to be excluded from heaven--only a denial of Christ's atonement, which alone sets us on a course that leads to eternal life and immortality.

Only our embrace of Christ's atonement covers all our sins, because only Christ represents a complete denial of *all* sin! Only he was sinless. Only his righteousness qualifies us for eternal life.

brightfame52 said:

That's your opinion. I'm speaking about the legal aspect of the death of Christ at this time. When He died the legal aspects of Christ death are immediately applied even before they are born. People He died for were reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10 that shows His death had been applied to them. For not all are reconciled to God while being enemies. Did you realize that?

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Yes, I know what you're talking about, though I wouldn't use the language you use. What Christ did on the cross was condemn all sin, past, present, and future. In dying for sin he put all sin to death.

Applying that death and resurrection to unbelievers is a different matter. They must enter into covenant with Christ in order for it to apply to them. If you use the word "imputation" in a bizarre way, you'll confuse everybody. You shouldn't make up your own definition for the word, but to avoid confusion, use the meaning of the word used by all.

You certainly are entitled to create your own meaning for the word, by applying your own context for the word. But this creates confusion.

brightfame52 said:

Cains works are known to be evil in scripture

1 Jn 3 12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jude 1 11

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

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You've missed my point, or at least, passed over it. My point was not that Cain's works were all good, but only that God said he could *do good.* And if he could do good, then he didn't have to be considered a "child of God" to do good. In other words, all men can do good by virtue of the Spirit of God that moves within them, stirring their conscience to do right. It may not get them saved, but at least they can do legitimate good works.

justbyfaith said:

In Philippians 3:15 it is written that as many as are perfect shall have a certain attitude, in context, that they will believe that they have not yet apprehended or were already made perfect. But it should be clear that even though they have this attitude, the Bible defines them as being perfect.

There are many verses which speak of the possibility of being sanctified wholly, among them are 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 John 3:9, and Hebrews 10:14.

It should also be clear that Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, and 1 John 2:10 all declare that we do not have to fall into sin but can even be made faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

In 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, and 1 John 2:6, it becomes clear that we can be righteous even as He is righteous, pure even as He is pure, and can walk even as He walked.

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Not in this life, but when glorified!

Randy Kluth said:

Yes, I know what you're talking about, though I wouldn't use the language you use. What Christ did on the cross was condemn all sin, past, present, and future. In dying for sin he put all sin to death.

Applying that death and resurrection to unbelievers is a different matter. They must enter into covenant with Christ in order for it to apply to them. If you use the word "imputation" in a bizarre way, you'll confuse everybody. You shouldn't make up your own definition for the word, but to avoid confusion, use the meaning of the word used by all.

You certainly are entitled to create your own meaning for the word, by applying your own context for the word. But this creates confusion.

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You went away from what Im talking about. Yet you said you know what Im talking about , please prove it, explain what Im talking about because I cant tell you know, but I may be wrong.

Randy Kluth said:

You've missed my point, or at least, passed over it. My point was not that Cain's works were all good, but only that God said he could *do good.* And if he could do good, then he didn't have to be considered a "child of God" to do good. In other words, all men can do good by virtue of the Spirit of God that moves within them, stirring their conscience to do right. It may not get them saved, but at least they can do legitimate good works.

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God never said specifically he could do good. If he did say that, please provide the scripture.

Angelina said:

I beg to differ. I believe that all men[and women] are born into sin when they enter this world. That is because of the fall. They are released from that original sin when they receive Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. This enables a believer to then be in the position of "saved by grace through faith", then they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which guarantees them the seal of approval, eternal life. That is the process and it has always been this way.

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Those Christ died for, are born sinners into the world, however God still sees them washed in Christs blood and clothed in His Righteousness, forgiven of all transgressions, and He doesnt charge them with their sinfulness they are born with.

Jude 1:1
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:...
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

Is anything impossible for The Lord?

2 Chr. 34:19 said:

Jude 1:1
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:...
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

Is anything impossible for The Lord?

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I like the KJV better, it puts being preserved prior to being called as well as being sanctified or loved

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: