Do you know the real Jesus ?

Christophany said:

of course as a unitarian who denies the Deity of Christ you refuse to acknowledge all the scriptures where His Deity is proclaimed.

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The point is, if your conclusion makes no sense, to the point of absurdity, then one is obligated to reassess what they consider to be Scriptural attestation. That's just logical. You can't have it both ways, i.e. assert that you have exegeted the scriptures correctly, and then profess nonsense as your conclusion. I'm not being contentious or defiant, just rational, responsible and reasonable. Plus, a god-man cannot save man, for to say otherwise, is judicially unsound.
We can go on till the cows come home exposing the absurdity of your claim, but, in short, a god-man is neither Biblical nor comprehensible, and thus, brings no glory to God nor the doctrine's proponents.

@Christophany , if you don’t mind me asking, what was your reason for starting this thread?

DNB said:

Hi Nancy, but that notion of what you said about God dying for the sake of His creation (humans), must strike you as odd?
What merit, significance, or awe, as you implied, could such an act elicit upon anyone when fundamentally, no veritable sacrifice was actually made?
If God cannot die, at least not for perpetuity without having the universe collapse, then what threat did death impose upon him in order to consider His act as sacrificial? Or, in other words, what sacrifice was there in Him temporarily feigning death? If I had the ability to regenerate an arm every time that it got severed, it is no sacrifice for me to offer my arm to anyone else, for any reason, for any amount of times.

I stress this, because you compared God's love with that of the other gods of the pagan religions, by referring to the 'sacrifice' that God made, that they were either unable, or unwilling to make. I agree that there are countless reasons to exalt and revere God over and above any other deity that man could possibly concoct in his mind, as these are nothing but demons (1 Corinthians 10:20). But, using the argument that 'God so loved His people that He died for them' may do more harm than good in attempting to compel others to the real Faith, or in verifying if we 'know the real Jesus'?

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Hello DNB,

"Or, in other words, what sacrifice was there in Him temporarily feigning death? If I had the ability to regenerate an arm every time that it got severed, it is no sacrifice for me to offer my arm to anyone else, for any reason, for any amount of times."

Well, I don't believe Christ feigned death nor do I think that He "temporarily" died physically but His body died...heart stopped, in His Spirit He was still alive and soon to be bodily resurrected. and, I don't believe (obviously) that He died spiritually at all. God's Spirit will never die and neither will ours if we have Him in us. But...we will die physically like Christ died physically, and was raised to life as we too will be raised. Jesus was all God and all human. Christ is divine.


"Hi Nancy, but that notion of what you said about God dying for the sake of His creation (humans), must strike you as odd?

Why would it strike me as odd? And, did He not die in our place, taking our sins upon Himself and defeated it on the cross? For who's sake would He have done this other than to save His creation?

What merit, significance, or awe, as you implied, could such an act elicit upon anyone when fundamentally, no veritable sacrifice was actually made?
If I had the ability to regenerate an arm every time that it got severed, it is no sacrifice for me to offer my arm to anyone else, for any reason, for any amount of times."

I'm sorry, don't think I quite understand this. Are you saying that Christ's death on the cross was "no sacrifice", that it was not genuine? I do not believe that is what you believe but, the above statement kind of sounds that way.

"I stress this, because you compared God's love with that of the other gods of the pagan religions, by referring to the 'sacrifice' that God made, that they were either unable, or unwilling to make."
I do not see that this is what I did at all. On the contrary, pointing out that the pagan gods do NOT love their, well...worshippers! God alone loves, the others are of course false and can do NOTHING! They have no power other than that Satan uses them since the beginning, and, that God will allow.

But, using the argument that 'God so loved His people that He died for them' may do more harm than good in attempting to compel others to the real Faith, or in verifying if we 'know the real Jesus'?"

First off, I'm not "arguing" anything, simply commented on a post and if it is too simple for you then, I'm sorry. I am pretty sure most on here understand what I was trying to say. How can saying "God so loved His people that He died for then" do harm. Ever hear of John 3:16??

BTW- "because you compared God's love with that of the other gods of the pagan religions"
Other gods of pagan religions cannot love, they cannot do or create anything. Idols.

Sorry If I misunderstood you, or maybe you misunderstood me?

Jane_Doe22 said:

@Christophany , if you don’t mind me asking, what was your reason for starting this thread?

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Good point, he never really defined who the 'real Jesus' is in his OP. I was going to ask him something along the same lines, but I felt that I already knew, ....he'll take any and every opportunity to promote his trinitarian beliefs, for sure!

Nancy said:

Sorry If I misunderstood you, or maybe you misunderstood me?

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Sorry Nancy, if by chance that I misunderstood you? If I may, I'll try again.

Nancy said:

I don't know of anyone else's god dying for their sake!

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I thought that you were saying that no one else's god has shown the same love as the Christian's do, including Judaism and Islam, not just pagan idols.

Nancy said:

The false gods always seem to require so many things from their people, such as Moloch and the sacrifice of babies. Don't know any false gods who actually love their people.

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I thought that you emphasized that point, again here. In short, I understood you to be saying that the Christian Atonement reflects a greater love of their God, than any other religion can display of theirs. The God of Jesus and his disciples is a more loving, merciful and compassionate God than all the others, proven by His willingness to die on the cross for us.

If that much is true of what you were trying to convey, I simply meant to say that since God cannot die, and according to you, Jesus was God, then I ask, where, fundamentally speaking, was the sacrifice? A sacrifice, by definition, implies a loss that cannot be recuperated. This is why we revere Jesus, he did not have the ability to raise himself from the dead, thus, he had to trust in God to first, accept his sacrifice, and two, keep his promise to raise and exalt him accordingly. If Jesus were God, all this is meaningless. That is, God merely went through the motions of allowing Himself to be crucified, and then raising Himself back to where He was before, since absolutely nothing can hold Him back, absolutely nothing. Thus, where is the sacrifice?

DNB said:

Sorry Nancy, if by chance that I misunderstood you? If I may, I'll try again.

I thought that you were saying that no one else's god has shown the same love as the Christian's do, including Judaism and Islam, not just pagan idols.

I thought that you emphasized that point, again here. In short, I understood you to be saying that the Christian Atonement reflects a greater love of their God, than any other religion can display of theirs. The God of Jesus and his disciples is a more loving, merciful and compassionate God than all the others, proven by His willingness to die on the cross for us.

If that much is true of what you were trying to convey, I simply meant to say that since God cannot die, and according to you, Jesus was God, then I ask, where, fundamentally speaking, was the sacrifice? A sacrifice, by definition, implies a loss that cannot be recuperated. This is why we revere Jesus, he did not have the ability to raise himself from the dead, thus, he had to trust in God to first, accept his sacrifice, and two, keep his promise to raise and exalt him accordingly. If Jesus were God, all this is meaningless. That is, God merely went through the motions of allowing Himself to be crucified, and then raising Himself back to where He was before, since absolutely nothing can hold Him back, absolutely nothing. Thus, where is the sacrifice?

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Again, sorry that I'm not always able to get my points/thoughts across well.
And no, not Judaism, just talking the pagan and false Gods. Neither do I believe we serve the same God as Islam, not by a long shot.

"I thought that you emphasized that point, again here. In short, I understood you to be saying that the Christian Atonement reflects a greater love of their God, than any other religion, pagan or not, can substantiate of theirs. The God of Jesus and his disciples is a more loving, merciful and compassionate God than all the others, proven by His willingness to die on the cross for us."

You have made my point here DNB yes, I agree the God of Jesus, YAWH, is the only God who loves, as He is the only true God and He IS love. Other gods are false and can do nothing. And yes, His willingness to go to that horrid death willingly is bad enough, but leaving the majesty of heaven to lower Himself like He did IMHO had to be the real pain He experienced more so than the physical and the mental anguish on earth.

"A sacrifice, by definition, implies a loss that cannot be recuperated. "

His ways are way past finding out! He does what He want's, nothing is impossible for Him, Christ was resurrected in a "glorious" body...flesh and blood cannot inherit. Corruption for incorruption and Christ "became SIN", a curse in our place.
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor. 5:21

As far as the rest of your post DNB, you are not a trinitarian and I will not go there with anyone anymore. it is a cemented belief of yours as is mine cemented. So, this would only go around and around in circles and, kind of tired of the same arguments over and over all the time so...so, perhaps start a "Trinity" thread, or a "Is Jesus really God" thread.

God bless and keep you,
Nancy

DNB said:

Good point, he never really defined who the 'real Jesus' is in his OP. I was going to ask him something along the same lines, but I felt that I already knew, ....he'll take any and every opportunity to promote his trinitarian beliefs, for sure!

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With all respect, I’d rather hear @Christophany ’s answer to my question- hence why I asked him.

Christophany said:

to see what people consider to be a false christ vs the real Christ and hear their opinions.

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On what people think about this academic side of theology?
Or to what degree this academic side of theology matters for salvation?

Christophany said:

that as well but more so to just have a discussion about who Jesus is in the scriptures.

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Would you mind if I ask you a different question?
To what degree do you believe that a person's imperfect academic understanding of Christ invalidates that person's salvation?
If you want a tactile example, see my modulist one earlier in this thread.

Nancy said:

Again, sorry that I'm not always able to get my points/thoughts across well.
And no, not Judaism, just talking the pagan and false Gods. Neither do I believe we serve the same God as Islam, not by a long shot.

"I thought that you emphasized that point, again here. In short, I understood you to be saying that the Christian Atonement reflects a greater love of their God, than any other religion, pagan or not, can substantiate of theirs. The God of Jesus and his disciples is a more loving, merciful and compassionate God than all the others, proven by His willingness to die on the cross for us."

You have made my point here DNB yes, I agree the God of Jesus, YAWH, is the only God who loves, as He is the only true God and He IS love. Other gods are false and can do nothing. And yes, His willingness to go to that horrid death willingly is bad enough, but leaving the majesty of heaven to lower Himself like He did IMHO had to be the real pain He experienced more so than the physical and the mental anguish on earth.

"A sacrifice, by definition, implies a loss that cannot be recuperated. "

His ways are way past finding out! He does what He want's, nothing is impossible for Him, Christ was resurrected in a "glorious" body...flesh and blood cannot inherit. Corruption for incorruption and Christ "became SIN", a curse in our place.
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor. 5:21

As far as the rest of your post DNB, you are not a trinitarian and I will not go there with anyone anymore. it is a cemented belief of yours as is mine cemented. So, this would only go around and around in circles and, kind of tired of the same arguments over and over all the time so...so, perhaps start a "Trinity" thread, or a "Is Jesus really God" thread.

God bless and keep you,
Nancy

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Thanks Nancy, understood. Just for the record, you're absolutely right about how protracting such an issue can be, I just thought that this time I would appeal simply to the principle of sacrifice. Not to belabor the issue, but just to explain why I might have appeared to be beating a dead horse.
Another thread more dedicated to the larger issue, would be more appropriate.
Until next time, thanks!

Jane_Doe22 said:

With all respect, I’d rather hear @Christophany ’s answer to my question- hence why I asked him.

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of course, I have no doubt that he will respond also. I just shared your sentiment, so i wanted Christophany to realize that more than 1 person found the OP somewhat undefined.

DNB said:

Thanks Nancy, understood. Just for the record, you're absolutely right about how protracting such an issue can be, I just thought that this time I would appeal simply to the principle of sacrifice. Not to belabor the issue, but just to explain why I might have appeared to be beating a dead horse.
Another thread more dedicated to the larger issue, would be more appropriate.
Until next time, thanks!

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Of course DNB...see you in the hood

Christophany said:

Below we see there are false christs, another jesus, antichrists, false prophets with false christs etc......

How do we know we have the right Jesus ?

What do you use to determine that you believe in the real Jesus ?

Can belief in a false christ save you ?

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed. NLT

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

hope this helps !!!

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Hello Christophany, as you know, I, like yourself, have very strong Christological beliefs. And, each of our respective views are diametrically opposed to one another. Therefore, outside of defining the ontology of both God and Christ, do you believe that there is salvation in just accepting the Atonement of Jesus Christ? That is, that before God, all men are sinners and in need of salvation, and it is only through God's mercy that He has offered a way for absolution. One must repent of their sins, and accept by faith the gift of grace which is believing in Jesus Christ as the appointed Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Do you believe that such a conviction, that does not take into consideration the ontologies of either God or Jesus, or any other Christological or Soteriological principles, is sufficient for redemption?

I personally might say yes to what I defined above, to the point that to go any further is where one can get into the territory of offense, heresy and blasphemy. I don't mean the latter part as a deterrent, for as you know, I have emphatically gone much further, as I believe so have you - and that we both believe each other to be heretics.
Again, I can possibly accept that one can be saved with the basic notion that man needs forgiveness for his sins, and God has offered it conditionally, to those who accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour - seated at the right-hand side of God to judge the entire world on that final Day. For these two principles might be sufficient to bring glory to God - repentance recognizes God's holiness, and accepting salvation through Faith, proclaims God's mercy.
I am extremely ardent and stringent about my Unitarian convictions, for what I believe to be for very vast reasons, to the point that I have always said that one cannot be saved if they have deified anyone other than God the Father. But again, and finally, I might be willing to accept that simply repentance and faith may suffice to obtain salvation, in the way the I have delineated it above, for example.

DNB said:

The point is, if your conclusion makes no sense, to the point of absurdity, then one is obligated to reassess what they consider to be Scriptural attestation. That's just logical. You can't have it both ways, i.e. assert that you have exegeted the scriptures correctly, and then profess nonsense as your conclusion. I'm not being contentious or defiant, just rational, responsible and reasonable. Plus, a god-man cannot save man, for to say otherwise, is judicially unsound.
We can go on till the cows come home exposing the absurdity of your claim, but, in short, a god-man is neither Biblical nor comprehensible, and thus, brings no glory to God nor the doctrine's proponents.

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See 1 Corinthians 1:18-29...sometimes the thing that appears to be foolish is the very thing that will save you if you believe in it.

I just want to let you know, @DNB, that I have been praying for your soul; but that for reasons I have already explained previously, possibly even within this thread, I am not going to engage with you very much as concerning doctrine but rather I believe that the Holy Spirit will testify to you of the doctrine of Christ's Deity as you continue to study your Bible in the King James Version.

justbyfaith said:

See 1 Corinthians 1:18-29...sometimes the thing that appears to be foolish is the very thing that will save you if you believe in it.

I just want to let you know, @DNB, that I have been praying for your soul; but that for reasons I have already explained previously, possibly even within this thread, I am not going to engage with you very much as concerning doctrine but rather I believe that the Holy Spirit will testify to you of the doctrine of Christ's Deity as you continue to study your Bible in the King James Version.

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Your 1st sentence was another non-sequitur JBF. How many is that now?
I never use the KJV, ...I forget, are you also KJVO? ...who's souls is in peril here, mine or yours (rhetorical)?
Although, thank you very much for your concern, I do believe that it was well intended and sincere, ...but, you know, I think that it is you who is in need of prayer and conversion, right?

If you believe Jesus is God then you believe in a false Christ. Jesus is not God. He's the son and that's where many of you got it wrong and how I know you don't know God. The one we suppose to be reconcile to and have a relationship with. Jesus only said if you have seen me you seen the father to only mean that "if I exist you know my father exist". Jesus was never God. He was always the son like we were always God's children. It's like going to McDonald's and asking just for a burger when you know that got fries there already. Lol that's what Jesus meant..if you see him then his father must exist. There's only one God and it's not Jesus. It's the father. I'm sure Jesus is sonly enough to screw up and be corrected by his father just like us if he did indeed needed correction. That's why the bible says we shall be as he is when we see him cause he is just like us when we become legitimate children of God.

Jesus died to reconcile us back to the father not just so we can stop there and fall in love with him (Jesus). He did it for us to know the father too. Iron sharpens iron, if one of you fall or both fall who will be there to pick you up if you don't know God. God is our only true witness since he is God and the only one who sits high faithful and true. He calls the shots.