An Interesting Question

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jiggyfly

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An Interesting Question From "Christ Triumphant" by Thomas Allin - 1890

THE question of universalism is usually argued on a basis altogether misleading, i.e. as though the point involved was chiefly, or wholly, man's endless suffering. Odious and repulsive to every moral instance, as is that dogma, it is not the turning point of this controversy. The vital question is this, that the popular creed (belief) by teaching the perpetuity of evil, points to a victorious devil, and to sin as finally triumphant over God. . . . .[page 285]

With all earnestness, I repeat that our choice lies between accepting the victory of Christ or of evil, and between these alternatives only. Escape from this delimma there is none. It avails nothing to diminish, as many now teach, the number of the lost, or to assert that they will be finally annihilated. All such modifications leave quite untouched the central difficulty of the popular creed (belief) -- the triumph of evil. Sin for ever present with its taint, even in a single instance, is sin triumphant. Sin, which God has been unable to remove (and has hd no resource but to annihilate the sinner) is sin triumphant and death victorious. . . . . [page 287]

To resume, I believe that no doctrine has ever gained so wide a currency, with so little support in Scripture, as has Probation (and so little support in all the higher Patristic theology). In fact, it is not the product of Scripture, it comes from the Philosophers, not from the Prophets, or the Apostles. . . . . Doubtless there is an element of probation in education, but, if God is our Father, the fact that dominates all else in our moral relationship to Him, is the education of humanity as His children. Certainly no education can go on without trial, but we are "tried that we may be educated, and not educated that we may be tried. . . . . [page 291]

Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin, of a baffled Savior, of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice, saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions, the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i. e. teaching that all men drawn to Christ means half mankind drawn to the devil, all things reconciled through Christ means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i. e,. that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort. It is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin -- of life victorious over every form of death -- of God triumphant over evil.

Once more I repeat that the larger hope EMPHATICALLY AND FULLY ACCEPTS the doctrine of retribution. Those who picture universalism as some easy-going system, which refuses to face the stern facts of sin and misery and retribution, are hopelessly wrong. We press on all the impenitent the awful certainty of wrath to come, and this with far more chance of acceptance, because taught in a form that does not wound the conscience, because we dare not teach that finite sin shall receive an infinite penalty. Few things have so hindered the spread of the larger hope as the wholly and absolutely groundless notion that it implies an inadequate sense of sin, and pictures God as a weakly indulgent Being, careless of holiness, provided the happiness of His creatures is assured. In fact, it is those who teach the popular creed (belief), and not we, who make light of sin. To teach unending sin in hell, even in a solitary instance, and under any conceivable modification, is to teach the victory of evil. To us this seems at once a libel on God and an untruth -- a libel because it imputes to God a final acquiescence in sin; an untruth, because it teaches that His Omnipotence breaks down at the very moment it is most needed, and that His Love and Purity can rest with absolute complacency, while pain and evil riot and rot forever.

Here we may ask, can any light, however small, be thrown on this awful mystery of sin? For all practical purposes, I reply, there are but two possible views of moral evil. It is endless as God Himself, which is in fact dualism, or it is temporary, and in God's mysterious plan, permitted only to serve a higher end. . . . . Certainly Scripture asserts that "God hath shut up all men unto disobedience, in order that He might have mercy upon all." Note here the stress boldly laid
  1. on God's agency, and not on man's will.
  2. The universality alike of sin and of salvation, both are equally absolute and universal.
  3. But sin is permitted only leading up to, as involving salvation.
And thus we see not an arrangement by which man starts innocent, free to choose sin or not, but a (virtual) provision for the hereditary transmission of evil by which innocence becomes impossible to all, by which every child of Adam is, in the divine plan, "shut up unto (sin) disobedience," an arrangement inconceivable on the part of a good and loving Father, except with a settled purpose of mercy to every one. . . . . [pages 294 - 296]

Do the evil effects of long continued willful sin ever wholly pass away?

It may be replied, perhaps never in some cases. Some men, if I may for the moment so apply our Lord's striking words, may, in some sense, enter into life halt and maimed. Obstinate persistency in sin may leave on the spirit a wound whose evil effects are permanent. There may be, for I will not attempt to decide, a permanent weakness, though the disease of sin be cured. Two results of this deserve notice.
  1. It furnishes us with a fresh answer to the plausible taunt cast at the larger hope as leading the careless to say, "if this be true I will have my fling, for all will come 'right at last.'" On any view, your fling I reply, will bring on you "the wrath to come" -- a retribution terrible in proportion to the willfulness of your sin. But, further, your fling may involve you in a penalty strictly everlasting. You may, though pardoned, forever suffer from the numbness and spiritual weakness which your sin leaves behind.
  2. May not this furnish a meeting place for reasonable men on both sides? For final and universal restoration is not opposed to perpetual penalty in a certain sense, because the willful sinner, though saved, may yet suffer a perpetual loss, a paena damni loss of the highest spiritual blessedness hereafter.
 

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Choir Loft
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It can be argued that the effects of sin do not pass away, either from the flesh or the human spirit.

Bear in mind that the penalty of sin has been removed by the blood of Christ. The flesh and/or the spirit may or may not be healed from it - or there may be a partial healing.

Regarding the flesh, consider Jacob and his wrestling with God. In the end he suffered an injury to his hip which also permanently changed his mental attitude.
It was all directed by God, but it was permanent.

Consider the spiritual change that is spoken of in Corinthians.
If a man is in Christ he is a new creature.
This implies a spiritual change at the root of the individual, manifesting itself in a different physical behavior and mental attitude.
Personal testimony reveals that this change goes to the spirit as well.

Bear in mind that the penalty of sin has been paid for by Christ, but the effects of sin and the action of grace change the individual forever.

It is all directed by God, but it is permanent.
 

fivesense

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It can be argued that the effects of sin do not pass away, either from the flesh or the human spirit.

Bear in mind that the penalty of sin has been removed by the blood of Christ. The flesh and/or the spirit may or may not be healed from it - or there may be a partial healing.

Regarding the flesh, consider Jacob and his wrestling with God. In the end he suffered an injury to his hip which also permanently changed his mental attitude.
It was all directed by God, but it was permanent.

Consider the spiritual change that is spoken of in Corinthians.
If a man is in Christ he is a new creature.
This implies a spiritual change at the root of the individual, manifesting itself in a different physical behavior and mental attitude.
Personal testimony reveals that this change goes to the spirit as well.

Bear in mind that the penalty of sin has been paid for by Christ, but the effects of sin and the action of grace change the individual forever.

It is all directed by God, but it is permanent.

It would be best rjp, if it could be located in Scripture where there is mention of "penalty of sin paid for". I have looked through many versions and am unable to find such a statement by Holy Spirit. Are you sure you are reading this correctly? Or, might I suggest that it is something that is interposed out of human reason instead of Divine inspiration. If it is not inspired of Holy Spirit, do you think you do well by repeating or teaching such things are so? Unscriptural terms most often indicates a failure to believe God, since He has already made His Words plain.

fivesense
 

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Choir Loft
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It would be best rjp, if it could be located in Scripture where there is mention of "penalty of sin paid for". I have looked through many versions and am unable to find such a statement by Holy Spirit. Are you sure you are reading this correctly? Or, might I suggest that it is something that is interposed out of human reason instead of Divine inspiration. If it is not inspired of Holy Spirit, do you think you do well by repeating or teaching such things are so? Unscriptural terms most often indicates a failure to believe God, since He has already made His Words plain.

fivesense

Your point is unclear to me, unless you are objecting to my reference to the vicarious death of Jesus upon the cross.

The OT is full of images of animal sacrifice, or scape goat examples, wherein the sins of Israel are transferred to a beast during a ceremony.
The incidents are too numerous to list here and I'll not bore the reader with endless quotations. Nevertheless they can be found there.
However that may be, the animal sacrifices continued until the death of Jesus upon the cross.

Following the death of Christ, the Jewish sense of a need for substitutionary deaths of animals seems to have vanished.
St. Paul describes the event as having a spiritual basis.
God no longer requires a sacrifice for sin since Christ's death is good once and for all.
It goes beyond personal belief and lies in the realm of physical and spiritual certainty.
You can take it to the bank, dear reader.
Jews may not accept the theology, but it is rather curious that they don't feel the need to sacrifice animals either.

The vicarious death of Christ upon the cross serves to pay the penalty of sin.
It has been accepted by God and is so stated in the NT Pauline letters.
It is a permanent spiritual thing, performed by God, revealed by God, believed by gentiles and accepted by Jews in deed if not in mind.

A little search with a good computer Bible study program should turn up dozens of references if you are so inclined to read them.

-----

The effects, scars, and experiences of sin are permanent as is the death of Christ upon the cross which pays the penalty for them. Our sins are 'covered' by His blood. The blemishes are healed to some degree. The reader should note here that upon His resurrection, Jesus demonstrated the wound in His side and the nail prints upon His body; all permanent even upon His glorified body.

God is good and makes all things good.
Sin enters in to pervert the good.
God turns the sin to good again by means of His work in the life of the believer.
Some theologians refer to this as the Super-good.

There is no such thing as Super-evil.
The evil process ends with the death of Christ upon the cross and His victory over the effects of sin, which also becomes ours.
 

fivesense

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Your point is unclear to me, unless you are objecting to my reference to the vicarious death of Jesus upon the cross.

The OT is full of images of animal sacrifice, or scape goat examples, wherein the sins of Israel are transferred to a beast during a ceremony.
The incidents are too numerous to list here and I'll not bore the reader with endless quotations. Nevertheless they can be found there.
However that may be, the animal sacrifices continued until the death of Jesus upon the cross.

Following the death of Christ, the Jewish sense of a need for substitutionary deaths of animals seems to have vanished.
St. Paul describes the event as having a spiritual basis.
God no longer requires a sacrifice for sin since Christ's death is good once and for all.
It goes beyond personal belief and lies in the realm of physical and spiritual certainty.
You can take it to the bank, dear reader.
Jews may not accept the theology, but it is rather curious that they don't feel the need to sacrifice animals either.

The vicarious death of Christ upon the cross serves to pay the penalty of sin.
It has been accepted by God and is so stated in the NT Pauline letters.
It is a permanent spiritual thing, performed by God, revealed by God, believed by gentiles and accepted by Jews in deed if not in mind.

A little search with a good computer Bible study program should turn up dozens of references if you are so inclined to read them.

-----

The effects, scars, and experiences of sin are permanent as is the death of Christ upon the cross which pays the penalty for them. Our sins are 'covered' by His blood. The blemishes are healed to some degree. The reader should note here that upon His resurrection, Jesus demonstrated the wound in His side and the nail prints upon His body; all permanent even upon His glorified body.

God is good and makes all things good.
Sin enters in to pervert the good.
God turns the sin to good again by means of His work in the life of the believer.
Some theologians refer to this as the Super-good.

There is no such thing as Super-evil.
The evil process ends with the death of Christ upon the cross and His victory over the effects of sin, which also becomes ours.

There is no such things as a penalty for sin. Jesus did not die on the cross for our "penalties" He did not pay the penalty for our sins. His crucifixion is stated as a means of pardon and forgiveness. The word penalty is an insertion of reasoning, not the sense of the Word.
The ascription of penalizing sin, which already has its award, death, is non-scriptural and leads away from the truth. It is the work of the Cross to ransom through sacrifice. It has nothing to do with penalties for sin. We are, as you said, "covered" by His blood. His sacrifice was for us, not instead in our place.

fivesense
 

Martin W.

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I may have misunderstood jiggyflies opening paste of Thomas Allin but it sounds like (Thomas Allin) is troubled by the aspect of a victorious devil with sin having triumph over God and Christ .

He claims there is no escape from this dilemma.

But I think he got off on the wrong foot by simply looking at everything as a battle of good over evil. (With Christ winning a few ) (and the devil winning a lot).


Instead I think it is more proper to see it this way:

1. God created man and then sin entered the created.

2. God made the (instant ?) decision to remove the sin and end sin , as well as the author of sin.

3. For his vaguely stated reasons God has let these thousands of years pass by in order that anyone who wants to opt out of the destruction of sin and the devil can have the opportunity to do so (through Christ).

4. God vaguely hints that one of his purposes is to show (to prove to The devil) his justice and mercy.

5. We are the proof .



After all :

1. There is no record of the devil coming for forgiveness and mercy

2. The unsaved do not come to God for forgiveness and mercy.

3. We Christians did come to God for forgiveness and mercy and we will receive it (proving God is a God of forgiveness and mercy)


This is a deep subject with only a few hints from the bible. I have always understood the debate and argument is firstly between God and Satan with (we humans) as secondary players.


I probably could have used better terminology but the point I wish to make is that there is a lot more going on than simply a contest (down here) of Satan winning a lot (of souls) and Christ wining a few (souls).

Christ triumphs , Satan loses. Period.

Even the Angels watch with awe.

There is more going on than what we humans can perceive. And we have been given minimum information for now. Thomas Allin has missed this important point from the start.

Best wishes.
Martin.

 

jiggyfly

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I may have misunderstood jiggyflies opening paste of Thomas Allin but it sounds like (Thomas Allin) is troubled by the aspect of a victorious devil with sin having triumph over God and Christ .

He claims there is no escape from this dilemma.

But I think he got off on the wrong foot by simply looking at everything as a battle of good over evil. (With Christ winning a few ) (and the devil winning a lot).


Instead I think it is more proper to see it this way:

1. God created man and then sin entered the created.

2. God made the (instant ?) decision to remove the sin and end sin , as well as the author of sin.

3. For his vaguely stated reasons God has let these thousands of years pass by in order that anyone who wants to opt out of the destruction of sin and the devil can have the opportunity to do so (through Christ).

4. God vaguely hints that one of his purposes is to show (to prove to The devil) his justice and mercy.

5. We are the proof .



After all :

1. There is no record of the devil coming for forgiveness and mercy

2. The unsaved do not come to God for forgiveness and mercy.

3. We Christians did come to God for forgiveness and mercy and we will receive it (proving God is a God of forgiveness and mercy)


This is a deep subject with only a few hints from the bible. I have always understood the debate and argument is firstly between God and Satan with (we humans) as secondary players.


I probably could have used better terminology but the point I wish to make is that there is a lot more going on than simply a contest (down here) of Satan winning a lot (of souls) and Christ wining a few (souls).

Christ triumphs , Satan loses. Period.

Even the Angels watch with awe.

There is more going on than what we humans can perceive. And we have been given minimum information for now. Thomas Allin has missed this important point from the start.

Best wishes.
Martin.




Very good post Martin and I am glad that you chose to look at this in a simplified manner.

According to the scriptures, Christ was sent by His Father to save the world (all humankind) John 3:17, 1Timothy 4:10. We know by the scriptures that eventually this plan of God to reconcile all to Himself through Christ Acts 3:21, Ephesians 1:10, Colossians 1:20 is accomplished just as the scriptures declare Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10.

Allin, in this article points out that if some are endlessly tormented in hell or annihilated then Christ simply failed to do what He was sent to do and therefore could not be considered victorious.

What do you believe is "the point from the start" Martin? I'm curious what you believe is or was God's intent from the start of creation.
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Choir Loft
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There is no such things as a penalty for sin. Jesus did not die on the cross for our "penalties" He did not pay the penalty for our sins. His crucifixion is stated as a means of pardon and forgiveness. The word penalty is an insertion of reasoning, not the sense of the Word.
The ascription of penalizing sin, which already has its award, death, is non-scriptural and leads away from the truth. It is the work of the Cross to ransom through sacrifice. It has nothing to do with penalties for sin. We are, as you said, "covered" by His blood. His sacrifice was for us, not instead in our place.

fivesense

Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. 2Co 5:21

Christ died in sin - instead of us - so that we may be seen as righteous before God.
The bit of scripture quoted above says it all. Failure to accept this gift of God results in condemnation for there is no other way around it.
 

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Choir Loft
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I may have misunderstood jiggyflies opening paste of Thomas Allin but it sounds like (Thomas Allin) is troubled by the aspect of a victorious devil with sin having triumph over God and Christ .


Thomas Allin was a UNIVERSALIST and so is jiggfly if I interpret his post correctly.

Universalism is a perverted form of Christianity and as such is neither logical, consistant, nor true.

A thumbnail refutation of some of their rubbish follows:
1. Sinners cannot be saved first and then punished for their sins.
2. Sinners cannot be saved and punished at the same time.
3. Sinners cannot be saved after they have been punished all that their sins deserve.

The bottom line to all this is that Universalists believe that payment for sin is accomplished by the work of MAN.
They reject the notion of the substitutionary death of Christ as payment for sin, they reject the power of the blood, and they reject the total dependence of man upon GOD for his salvation.

If we follow the Universalist logic, it is not necessary for God to be involved in the salvation business at all.
The devil would have all men believe this nonsense, thus falling into his grasp and away from the blessings of the Almighty.

The Christian gospel states that only God can make payment for sin and that it is indeed possible to be saved during the physical life thus avoiding eternal punishment altogether.
 

jiggyfly

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Thomas Allin was a UNIVERSALIST and so is jiggfly if I interpret his post correctly.

Universalism is a perverted form of Christianity and as such is neither logical, consistant, nor true.

A thumbnail refutation of some of their rubbish follows:
1. Sinners cannot be saved first and then punished for their sins.
2. Sinners cannot be saved and punished at the same time.
3. Sinners cannot be saved after they have been punished all that their sins deserve.

The bottom line to all this is that Universalists believe that payment for sin is accomplished by the work of MAN.
They reject the notion of the substitutionary death of Christ as payment for sin, they reject the power of the blood, and they reject the total dependence of man upon GOD for his salvation.

If we follow the Universalist logic, it is not necessary for God to be involved in the salvation business at all.
The devil would have all men believe this nonsense, thus falling into his grasp and away from the blessings of the Almighty.

The Christian gospel states that only God can make payment for sin and that it is indeed possible to be saved during the physical life thus avoiding eternal punishment altogether.

Not sure what your source for universal reconciliation is but it is incorrect. Maybe you have Christian Universalism (universal reconciliation) confused with unitarian universalism.

Actually universal reconciliation is supported extremely well by the scriptures much much more in fact than endless torment or annihilation. Christian universalism is founded on the scriptural belief that all are reconciled through Christ back to Father and has been taught since the beginning of the new covenant.
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fivesense

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Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. 2Co 5:21

Christ died in sin - instead of us - so that we may be seen as righteous before God.
The bit of scripture quoted above says it all. Failure to accept this gift of God results in condemnation for there is no other way around it.




This quote from 2Corinthians does not contain the word "penalty", does it?. Please show where your teaching that Christ paid the penalty of sin is found in the Scriptures. If you cannot find it, and I know you won't, then maybe a readjustment is in order.

Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil.


I do not see"failure to accept this gift" in this passage which talks of the condemnation of God, the only condemnation I know of. It does however speak of condemning those in Israel at the time, who tasted of the glory and grace of our Lord, and refused the offer of the King and the Kingdom. It has no bearing on the truth for today, according to Paul's evangel. It pertains to Nicodemus and all Israel, who must be regenerated with a heart of flesh and filled with the Spirit in order to relate to God. They almost all rejected His offer.

Also, how is it that a person can have the text right in front of them, and still make up something else? It does not say, "Christ died in sin."
Does it? It says plainly that He was made to be sin for our sakes, and death is the rations of sin. He should not have died, period. He did though, at the hands of murderers, and death is the fruit of sin. His sin was He was forced to die, according to His Father's predeterminded counsel beforehand. He could not retain sin in His members, it was impossible.
fivesense.
 

fivesense

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Thomas Allin was a UNIVERSALIST and so is jiggfly if I interpret his post correctly.

Universalism is a perverted form of Christianity and as such is neither logical, consistant, nor true.

A thumbnail refutation of some of their rubbish follows:
1. Sinners cannot be saved first and then punished for their sins.
2. Sinners cannot be saved and punished at the same time.
3. Sinners cannot be saved after they have been punished all that their sins deserve.

The bottom line to all this is that Universalists believe that payment for sin is accomplished by the work of MAN.
They reject the notion of the substitutionary death of Christ as payment for sin, they reject the power of the blood, and they reject the total dependence of man upon GOD for his salvation.

If we follow the Universalist logic, it is not necessary for God to be involved in the salvation business at all.
The devil would have all men believe this nonsense, thus falling into his grasp and away from the blessings of the Almighty.

The Christian gospel states that only God can make payment for sin and that it is indeed possible to be saved during the physical life thus avoiding eternal punishment altogether.

I can honestly say, you have no idea what universalists believe. I have read some of their writings, not the Organization called Universalists, and I have not read the things you so slanderously put forth as truth. Words like"perverted" and rubbish" shows only your desire to invoke bias upon the readers, not a seeking after the truth. You may want to reconsider your approach.

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Choir Loft
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I can honestly say, you have no idea what universalists believe. I have read some of their writings, not the Organization called Universalists, and I have not read the things you so slanderously put forth as truth. Words like"perverted" and rubbish" shows only your desire to invoke bias upon the readers, not a seeking after the truth. You may want to reconsider your approach.

fivesense

A personal note if I may be allowed to do so before I continue.
If jiggfly is not a universalist, then I admit to error and humbly request forgiveness.
If jiggfly is indeed of such a persuasion, then I recommend immediate repentance for the salvation of his/her soul.

* * *

I do indeed have a very clear idea of what Universalists believe, including their efficient methods of confusing the issue of salvation. As proof the reader here witnesses an exercise in evasion; a protest of my post, rather than a clear statement otherwise.

A detailed study of the Universalist belief system will reveal that what I've stated is entirely true.
A discussion with a Universalist will reveal an intricate methodology of deceit and confusion.

A warning label should be affixed to any statement or literature published by a Universalist.
WARNING: Rejection of the vicarious death of Christ leads to permanent eternal damnation.

I believe the descriptions of its perversity and my opinion of it as rubbish are entirely within the scope of polite demeanor.
That I am attempting to promote bias among readers such that only God can save sinners is entirely my intention.
That the statement of truth as God has revealed it within the pages of the Bible and in the testimony of His saints cannot be revolked.

With regard to "universal reconcilation" neither the word nor the collective phrase appears anywhere in scripture.
This is an example of how Universalist philosophy attempts to confuse Biblical intent and subvert its' warning.

Salvation is only by the blood of Jesus Christ and can only be received during life in this world.
Now is the time for salvation, today is the day of decision.
 

jiggyfly

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A personal note if I may be allowed to do so before I continue.
If jiggfly is not a universalist, then I admit to error and humbly request forgiveness.
If jiggfly is indeed of such a persuasion, then I recommend immediate repentance for the salvation of his/her soul.

* * *

I do indeed have a very clear idea of what Universalists believe, including their efficient methods of confusing the issue of salvation. As proof the reader here witnesses an exercise in evasion; a protest of my post, rather than a clear statement otherwise.

A detailed study of the Universalist belief system will reveal that what I've stated is entirely true.
A discussion with a Universalist will reveal an intricate methodology of deceit and confusion.

A warning label should be affixed to any statement or literature published by a Universalist.
WARNING: Rejection of the vicarious death of Christ leads to permanent eternal damnation.

I believe the descriptions of its perversity and my opinion of it as rubbish are entirely within the scope of polite demeanor.
That I am attempting to promote bias among readers such that only God can save sinners is entirely my intention.
That the statement of truth as God has revealed it within the pages of the Bible and in the testimony of His saints cannot be revolked.

With regard to "universal reconcilation" neither the word nor the collective phrase appears anywhere in scripture.
This is an example of how Universalist philosophy attempts to confuse Biblical intent and subvert its' warning.

Salvation is only by the blood of Jesus Christ and can only be received during life in this world.
Now is the time for salvation, today is the day of decision.

Absolutely ludicrous post rjp, I would like for you to produce some scripture to support your opinion that "Salvation is only by the blood of Jesus Christ and can only be received during life in this world."






 

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Choir Loft
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Absolutely ludicrous post rjp, I would like for you to produce some scripture to support your opinion that "Salvation is only by the blood of Jesus Christ and can only be received during life in this world."







I am not required to duel with you about this subject.
My only responsibility is to make it clear that Universalism lies at the root of a demonic deception concerning eternal judgment and the nature of personal salvation.

You are obviously content to believe a lie and have no intention of accepting any theological statement, list of scripture or personal opinions however they are published.

If, however, I am wrong about your intent then I apologize ahead of time.
Do your own homework regarding the vicarious death of Christ and I'll be more than happy to elucidate their context and implications with you.

thank you for your response
 

jiggyfly

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I am not required to duel with you about this subject.
My only responsibility is to make it clear that Universalism lies at the root of a demonic deception concerning eternal judgment and the nature of personal salvation.

You are obviously content to believe a lie and have no intention of accepting any theological statement, list of scripture or personal opinions however they are published.

If, however, I am wrong about your intent then I apologize ahead of time.
Do your own homework regarding the vicarious death of Christ and I'll be more than happy to elucidate their context and implications with you.

thank you for your response

You obviously have no scriptural support or you would have posted it, but I am used to such straw man posts.
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Paul

Member
Aug 19, 2006
529
20
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76
I think you guys are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Do you even remember what started it?
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
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0
WI
I think you guys are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Do you even remember what started it?


Often times there is much that is uncovered through conflict. Ours is to enter into sonship according to the wisom and realization of who our God and Father truly is. It is by being equipped with truth, ferreted out, drudgingly retreived by hard study in the word, that the qualification of sonship and approval by God comes about. Those who labor in the Word and receive from God, as did Martin Luther, can expect opposition and vehemence from those who desire only self-promotion and find satisfaction in steeling themselves from humbly submitting to the word of God. In this forum, it is best to maintain the unity of the spirit in the tie of peace, but remember that no cause of Christ comes without great struggle.

fivesense