The Trinity definition

see posts #1-#6 of the following thread:

True Trinity.

Christophany said:

@marks

This is from Christianity.com

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of the Christian church across the centuries. What is the Trinity? Christians in every land unite in proclaiming that our God eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those who deny that truth place themselves outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

This doctrine unites all true Christians and separates us from those who are not Christian. You may believe and still not be a Christian, but if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a Christian at all.

Do you agree with the above ?

Why or why not ?

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.

I believe, however, that there are some who would claim to agree with the above who in all reality do not believe in the Trinity but in a form of Tritheism.

The true Trinity identifies the members of the Godhead as being distinct; not separate.

Christophany said:

@marks

This is from Christianity.com

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of the Christian church across the centuries. What is the Trinity? Christians in every land unite in proclaiming that our God eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those who deny that truth place themselves outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

This doctrine unites all true Christians and separates us from those who are not Christian. You may believe and still not be a Christian, but if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a Christian at all.

Do you agree with the above ?

Why or why not ?

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

Hey Christophany, ...what, you're posting another trinity thread, how many is that now, ...why so tenacious and obsessed - having some doubts (just kidding, ...sort of)?
Anyhow, no, I don't agree with the statement above, I think that it is heresy (yes, the irony), and here's why.

The most incomprehensible doctrine in all of Christendom, so enigmatic and implausible that even it's leading proponents cannot explain it, and that the majority of its adherents claim that one cannot be saved without confessing it as true, has not one explicit or didactic passage in the Bible that teaches it, nor can be found a single term corresponding to any of its creedal nomenclature within the Bible.

The utter redundancy of having three all-powerful persons in the Godhead, when only one is required to create the universe, answer all prayers of all mankind, involve Himself in all manner of intervention, providence and maintenance of the universe, and all its inhabitants. Two such persons are not necessary but superfluous, let alone three. What an absolute mockery!

The patent incompatibility and implausibility of the existence of a god-man? For, that which defines deity, is entirely antithetical to that which delineates humanity. One is transcendent and omnipresent, the other is secular and finite. One is immortal, immutable and incorruptible, the other is mortal, decaying and susceptible to iniquity and depravity. Such an intrinsic oxymoron cannot ever be effectuated or fathomed.

Neither did ever one conversion take place in the New Testament, where a trinitarian formula was invoked in order to confirm or assure the recipient's confession or salvation.

Not one facet of Christian theology can be resolved in either a sensible, judicially sound, or glorifying manner, when employing a trinitarian dynamic to the exposition. The immortal and transcendent God did not die as a man, in order to raise Himself from the dead, so that He may propitiate Himself, in order to expiate humans from His own wrath, in order to exalt Himself to His own right-hand side. Donald Trump could not have come up with something more absurd than this, seriously.

Not one prayer or doxology from any of the most prominent characters in the Bible, those that give us the most definitive attributes of God, ever cited any trinitarian verbiage, or even alluded to a God who was anything more than one in all aspects of His ontology.

I have never seen any other doctrine in all of Christendom, that has reduced rather sound and astute men into babbling fools, as they try to exegete this doctrine. No other doctrine defames God, His Word, His Biblical attestation, His wisdom and justice, the way that this doctrine does. It is the most ignoble, defamatory and heretical doctrine in all of Christendom!

Thanks for asking!

DNB said:

Hey Christophany, ...what, you're posting another trinity thread, how many is that now, ...why so tenacious and obsessed - having some doubts (just kidding, ...sort of)?
Anyhow, no, I don't agree with the statement above, I think that it is heresy (yes, the irony), and here's why.

The most incomprehensible doctrine in all of Christendom, so enigmatic and implausible that even it's leading proponents cannot explain it, that the majority of its adherents claim that one cannot be saved without confessing it as true, has not one explicit or didactic passage in the Bible that teaches it, nor can be found a single term corresponding to any of its creedal nomenclature within the Bible.

The utter redundancy of having three all-powerful persons in the Godhead, when only one is required to create the universe, answer all prayers of all mankind, involve Himself in all manner of intervention, providence and maintenance of the universe and all its inhabitants. Two is not necessary but superfluous, let alone three. What an absolute mockery!

Neither did ever one conversion take place in the New Testament, where a trinitarian formula was invoked in order to confirm or assure the recipient's confession and salvation.

Not one facet of Christian theology can be resolved in either a sensible, judicially sound, or glorifying manner, when employing a trinitarian dynamic to the exposition. The immortal and transcendent God did not die as a man, in order to raise Himself from the dead, so that He may propitiate Himself, in order to expiate humans from His own wrath, in order to exalt Himself to His own right-hand side. Donald Trump could not have come up with something more absurd than this, seriously.

Not one prayer or doxology from any of the most prominent characters in the Bible, those that give us the most definitive attributes of God, ever cited any trinitarian verbiage, or even alluded to a God who was not one in all aspects of His ontology.

I have never seen any other doctrine in all of Christendom, that has reduced rather sound and astute men into babbling fools, as they try to exegete this doctrine. No other doctrine defames God, His Word, His Biblical attestation, His wisdom and justice, the way that this doctrine does. It is the most ignoble, defamatory and heretical doctrine in all of Christendom!

Thanks for asking!

Click to expand...

That the doctrine of the Trinity appears to be foolishness to you is right in line with my apparent non-sequitur wherein I reference to you 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 in order to tell you, in a way that follows logically, that the truth may indeed appear to be foolishness to those who are perishing; but to those who are being saved it is the power of God.

I would point out also what is written in Isaiah 55:8-9; wherein we find that God's thoughts and ways are above our thoughts and ways; and that we may not be able to comprehend Him with out finite human brains.

I'm still praying for you, btw, @DNB.

justbyfaith said:

see posts #1-#6 of the following thread:

True Trinity.

Click to expand...

Christophany said:

hey dnb out of your 3000 plus posts there must be 2,999 of them about modalism.

I mean this is a christian forum to discuss Theology- the Study of God. Since God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit it stands to reason the most important thing to discuss is who God is dnb. I even take it a step further since Jesus said the OT was all about Him and He asked people who do you say that I Am , I concentrate on the Person and work of Jesus most of the time. False christs abound these days as do false teachings concerning His Person and His work.

hope this helps !!!

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Yes, one's Christology and Theology is of the utmost importance. But, you don't really discuss anything at all, do you, Christophany. You clearly stated in your OP, that a non-trinitarian view is heretical - so then, what's to discuss with you? You even went as far as to, hypocritically, ask people what they think, and why, and yet, you are barely interested or open to what they have to say. In other words, even a single sound rebuttal would show some acumen and willingness to engage, but that is definitely not an option with you. And I'm not referring to just myself, this has no bearing on my observation.
The point is, you are obsessed with this topic for some ulterior motive, other than true open-minded exegesis. As it appears to me, anyhow.

DNB said:

Yes, one's Christology and Theology is of the utmost importance. But, you don't really discuss anything at all, do you, Christophany. You clearly stated in your OP, that a non-trinitarian view is heretical - so then, what's to discuss with you? You even went as far as to, hypocritically, ask people what they think, and why, and yet, you are barely interested or open to what they have to say. In other words, even a single sound rebuttal would show some acumen and willingness to engage, but that is definitely not an option with you.
The point is, you are obsessed with this topic for some ulterior motive, other than true open-minded exegesis. As it appears to me, anyhow.

Click to expand...

If you'll notice the tag to me in the OP, this was, I think, an effort to get me into some kind of trinitarian discussion to undercut my discussion with @Christophany regarding Philippians, "He emptied Himself". His claim there is that if I assert that Jesus set aside His "omnipowers" when He became a man, and only knew what a man could know, and only did what a man can do, and that all the miracles and everything more was empowered by the Holy Spirit, that somehow this means I deny Jesus' deity. So I think he started this thread to drag me off into this discussion instead of that one.

Much love!

Christophany said:

@marks

This is from Christianity.com

All Christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this—that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true—you are not a Christian at all. You are in fact a heretic. Those words may sound harsh, but they represent the judgment of the Christian church across the centuries. What is the Trinity? Christians in every land unite in proclaiming that our God eternally exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those who deny that truth place themselves outside the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

This doctrine unites all true Christians and separates us from those who are not Christian. You may believe and still not be a Christian, but if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a Christian at all.

Do you agree with the above ?

Why or why not ?

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

Are you an advanced teacher of the trinity whereby you can explain the trinity in terms of the classic three stages/phases/states of H20...I always get a kick out of that explanation, especially when I add in my footnote to it after it is explained....lol

marks said:

If you'll notice the tag to me in the OP, this was, I think, an effort to get me into some kind of trinitarian discussion to undercut my discussion with @Christophany regarding Philippians, "He emptied Himself". His claim there is that if I assert that Jesus set aside His "omnipowers" when He became a man, and only knew what a man could know, and only did what a man can do, and that all the miracles and everything more was empowered by the Holy Spirit, that somehow this means I deny Jesus' deity. So I think he started this thread to drag me off into this discussion instead of that one.

Much love!

Click to expand...

Oh, I see, yes, you were marked out on this (no pun intended), I overlooked that part - that was probably from the Kenosis thread, wasn't it? But, the nature of the OP also seems to attempt to draw others into engagement also. The query at the end seemed to stipulate that.

...well, as far as you and Christophany debating over kenosis or hybrid is concerned, and that you may already know how I feel about the trinity, I think that you'll both go in circles ad infinitum, trying to prove the unprovable or indemonstrable. This is the doctrine of the trinity, making most people lose their minds with notions that even science-fiction could not concoct.

DNB said:

Oh, I see, yes, you were marked out on this (no pun intended), I overlooked that part - that was probably from the Kenosis thread, wasn't it? But, the nature of the OP also seems to attempt to draw others into engagement also. The query at the end seemed to stipulate that.

...well, as far as you and Christophany debating over kenosis or hybrid is concerned, and that you may already know how I feel about the trinity, I think that you'll both go in circles ad infinitum, trying to prove the unprovable or indemonstrable. This is the doctrine of the trinity, making most people lose their minds with notions that even science-fiction could not concoct.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm a marked man! My father left his Mark on this world!

And yes, that was the thread. For me it's enough to just state what the Bible states, and accept it's true. And I best call this trinitarian, I've heard other people's ideas with seem to embody the same concepts, others are different, and all who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved.

God said He set it up so we'd search for Him, and that He's not far from any of us. He's not about making it hard to find Him, He makes it simple, if we want Him. Maybe not easy, but simple.

I realize that we'll not agree over the doctrine. What I wrote over there that is important to me about this doctrine, is that Jesus' life is the pattern for our lives, in submission to the Father, not doing anything of ourselves, and being fully empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Our minds are renewed according to the knowledge of our Creator, so misunderstanding about God and Jesus may hinder our growth.

Much love!

marks said:

Yes, I'm a marked man! My father left his Mark on this world!

And yes, that was the thread. For me it's enough to just state what the Bible states, and accept it's true. And I best call this trinitarian, I've heard other people's ideas with seem to embody the same concepts, others are different, and all who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved.

God said He set it up so we'd search for Him, and that He's not far from any of us. He's not about making it hard to find Him, He makes it simple, if we want Him. Maybe not easy, but simple.

I realize that we'll not agree over the doctrine. What I wrote over there that is important to me about this doctrine, is that Jesus' life is the pattern for our lives, in submission to the Father, not doing anything of ourselves, and being fully empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Our minds are renewed according to the knowledge of our Creator, so misunderstanding about God and Jesus may hinder our growth.

Much love!

Click to expand...

...yes, but you see, what you stated as the most important part of your conviction, omits the necessity of Christ's divinity - it actually undermines it (Jesus submitting to the Father).
That's my contention, ...I don't think that simple has anything to do with the confounding doctrine of the trinity.

Christophany said:

I'm not one who tries to explain the Trinity outside of Scripture. So I do not use analogies since God is Unique and in both Isaiah and Job declares what will you compare to Me.

hope this helps !!!

Click to expand...

Not knowing what you really mean by 'God,' I will assume you mean his real personal (close pronounced name) name of YHWH....or a variant of it. God to a believer can ONLY mean this unique name and supreme being or Spirit. There is no YHWH the Son or YHWH the (Holy) Spirit.
Else God can be used for any one including the angels, anointed men, saints and even demons and Lucifer.

I do not believe that you think YHWH is unique at all because you believe he takes on 3 forms as I stated above, not written in scripture.

The burden is on you to prove or at least expand on why you think YHWH is unique and embedded in your Trinity hypothesis.

Good luck you will need it...APAK

DNB said:

...yes, but you see, what you stated as the most important part of your conviction, omits the necessity of Christ's divinity - it actually undermines it (Jesus submitting to the Father).
That's my contention, ...I don't think that simple has anything to do with the confounding doctrine of the trinity.

Click to expand...

More like, an important application of this doctrine.

Here's some more of my thinking.

That Jesus, Actually, the Angel of the LORD, set aside the perogatives and powers of deity to live life as a man, to fully engage life on our level. That being born a baby, Jesus, He entered this life, and lived it according to how our lives are to be lived. But that knowing Who He was, and Where He came from, and where He was going, He remained true to Himself, and in reliance on the Father.

Now, we are the children of God created righteous and holy. Now, if we live true to ourselves, we'll live the same life, submitted, faithful, in the same power as Jesus lived His life.

Much love!

marks said:

More like, an important application of this doctrine.

Here's some more of my thinking.

That Jesus, Actually, the Angel of the LORD, set aside the perogatives and powers of deity to live life as a man, to fully engage life on our level. That being born a baby, Jesus, He entered this life, and lived it according to how our lives are to be lived. But that knowing Who He was, and Where He came from, and where He was going, He remained true to Himself, and in reliance on the Father.

Now, we are the children of God created righteous and holy. Now, if we live true to ourselves, we'll live the same life, submitted, faithful, in the same power as Jesus lived His life.

Much love!

Click to expand...

Yes, but again, all the efficacy of Christ's life on earth had nothing to do with him being deity. You just added that as almost, a matter of fact - meaning, nothing that you stated was contingent upon him being God.

DNB said:

Yes, but again, all the efficacy of Christ's life on earth had nothing to do with him being deity.

Click to expand...

On the contrary, it had everything to do with the deity of Christ. If Jesus of Nazareth was not God in human form, nothing He did on earth would have mattered.

Christophany said:

Is YHWH below the Father ?

Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

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Christo....
Trying to be tricky here? Playing scripture chess are we? Love it...

A little puzzled by your statement as if you are suggesting that YHWH could be someone else, other that the Father of all.

The verse addresses YHWH our Father, indeed. He alone presented the promise to future generations through Joel..and even David if you care to find that verse as well

I would be careful in making you next move if I were you.....

APAK