The Trinity definition

DNB said:

You eisegeted the text by concluding that Jesus said that he was God, simply by calling God his Father.

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You accuse me of eisogesis when I was pointing out what the Jews in His time thought of Him. I avoided saying that this passage has Jesus "claiming to be God" but you accused me of it anyway.

That the Jews thought He was making Himself equal to God is obvious - that is exactly what they said.

But YOU change it to mean that they " simply interpreted Jesus' words as that he was claiming to be of more importance than Abraham" - but that is YOUR opinion and YOUR EISOGESIS.

if its in the hands of the pharisees to decide who Jesus, here they are later on in John 9:

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?”

here they speak as if they believe Jesus to be a man. and they dont seem to be concerned if He is a man or the Most High, the issue is if He is from the Most High. is this man from the Most High or not from the Most High, either way they believe Him to be a man.

Jhn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jhn 8:57

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The context is TIME - look at John 8:56-57 - the context is Jesus not being old enough to have seen Abraham. It has ZERO to do with "being more important than Abraham" - that is YOUR eisogesis.

Jhn 9:16

Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

A division - iow - they disagreed about Him.

DancesWithGnostics said:

You accuse me of eisogesis when I was pointing out what the Jews in His time thought of Him. I avoided saying that this passage has Jesus "claiming to be God" but you accused me of it anyway.

That the Jews thought He was making Himself equal to God is obvious - that is exactly what they said.

But YOU change it to mean that they " simply interpreted Jesus' words as that he was claiming to be of more importance than Abraham" - but that is YOUR opinion and YOUR EISOGESIS.

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You conflated two different rebuttals. When Jesus called God his Father, the Jews accused him of claiming to be equal to God, which Jesus' remark does not necessitate such a conclusion. But, you said that it did, because you claimed that the meaning was obvious to all, and thus, they wanted to stone him. They misunderstood Jesus.

As far as the Abraham allusion goes, you said it was clear that he was referring to the tetragrammaton, thus, they wanted to stone him. I said no, YHWH was not near anyone's mind, even his enemies, it was his audacity to claim precedence over Abraham that they resented.

jaybird said:

if its in the hands of the pharisees to decide who Jesus,

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It's NOT "in their hands" to decide who Jesus is - He is who He is regardless of what they think. This context is Him being a MAN either way IN THEIR EYES, you're right.

I never said that Jesus was NOT A MAN - I am saying He is also God - this is not a novelty; this is known as Hypostatic Union - Jesus is fully God and Fully man - have you never heard of this idea before? Even if you do not adhere to it, surely you see this is a Chalcedonian definition which just put into words what was believed by a majority of Christians well before a Council in Chalcedon. Honestly, some of these discussions just re-invent the wheel about things the ancient church long ago decided.

We have Arianism re-surfacing - that Jesus is not fully divine - it's not JUST JW's who are saying it.

It is not up to Pharisees to say who Jesus was - but scripture can show that the Pharisees in His time thought He was making Himself equal to God - which is exactly what the Bible says about them.

DancesWithGnostics said:

Jhn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jhn 8:57

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The context is TIME - look at John 8:56-57 - the context is Jesus not being old enough to have seen Abraham. It has ZERO to do with "being more important than Abraham" - that is YOUR eisogesis.

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No one becomes indignant over a deluded person, who claims that he's older than he actually is.

DNB said:

you said it was clear that he was referring to the tetragrammaton

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Bosh. I never mentioned tetragrammaton.

DancesWithGnostics said:

Bosh. I never mentioned tetragrammaton.

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Buddy, you're freaking me out, can you not keep your story straight? These are your exact words, which you've denied twice already?

'Jesus was speaking something that definitely torqued the Jewish leaders - like I AM as in Yahweh as in equating Himself with God. He knew what He was saying and the Jewish leaders did also.'

You are entirely assuming what the Jewish leaders thought.
Also, do you not know that YHWH is the tetragrammaton?

DNB said:

But you are trying to refute my position based on the first context, which was the passage that was used. But, just for the record, even Isaiah 55:8-9 does not consider his ways as foolish by anyone's esteem, just indiscernible - once revealed, they are marvelous in our eyes (Mark 12:11).
Quit the non-sequiturs.

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Of course God's ways are not foolish...but the scripture is saying that they seem foolish to the ones who are perishing.

This would apply to you because you are going to die in your sins over your denial of Christ's Deity (John 8:24).

DNB said:

I actually didn't know that you were a modalist

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I am not a modalist. But neither am I a Tritheist.

I take the middle ground between these two in order to come to a clear understanding of the Trinity.

My doctrine does not qualify as modalism because I consider that there are in fact, three, distinct Persons within the Trinity.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

DNB said:

No one becomes indignant over a deluded person, who claims that he's older than he actually is.

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In their culture, it was expected that Elijah was going to return.
When Jesus asked His disciples "Who do men say that I am?" - they answered "Elijah, or one of the prophets". So your wild guess about no one gets indignant over a deluded person does not apply.
The Jews did indeed get indignant about Jesus, once were going to throw Him off a cliff, wanted to stone Him, etc.

And eventually got Rome to crucify Him.

DNB said:

You are entirely assuming what the Jewish leaders thought.

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They made it clear what they thought, later, in John 10:31-33.

I am aware that YHWH's name has been represented by Tetragrammaton - but I never posted the word Tetragrammaton, and certainly did not LIE TWICE about anything as you falsely accuse me of.
I don't care if I freak you out - and my story is straight.

DancesWithGnostics said:

It's NOT "in their hands" to decide who Jesus is - He is who He is regardless of what they think. This context is Him being a MAN either way IN THEIR EYES, you're right.

I never said that Jesus was NOT A MAN - I am saying He is also God - this is not a novelty; this is known as Hypostatic Union - Jesus is fully God and Fully man - have you never heard of this idea before? Even if you do not adhere to it, surely you see this is a Chalcedonian definition which just put into words what was believed by a majority of Christians well before a Council in Chalcedon. Honestly, some of these discussions just re-invent the wheel about things the ancient church long ago decided.

We have Arianism re-surfacing - that Jesus is not fully divine - it's not JUST JW's who are saying it.

It is not up to Pharisees to say who Jesus was - but scripture can show that the Pharisees in His time thought He was making Himself equal to God - which is exactly what the Bible says about them.

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im not a big fan of what the pharisees think because they are the same ones that are plotting His murder. how credible can they be?

IMO He cant be fully G-D and fully man because men are not the Most High. men and the Almighty are two different things, if Jesus is the Most High that would make Him not like the rest of us because we are not the Most High.

Modalism is blown out of the water by the baptism of Jesus - where all 3 Trinity members are doing something at the same moment - Jesus being baptized, Father speaking, Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove.

So DNB accuses justbyfaith of being a Modalist when he is not one.

DNB says I lied twice when I did not.

Behold, readers, you who read this thread even though you may never post.

Behold and see.

I am not a "big fan of the Pharisees" either, jaybird.
All I wanted to use them for was seeing what they thought of Jesus, why they wanted to kill Him.
It's your perogative to say

jaybird said:

IMO He cant be fully G-D and fully man

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and its my perogative to believe He is fully God and fully man - as countless Christians have done throughout history.

DancesWithGnostics said:

I am not a "big fan of the Pharisees" either, jaybird.
All I wanted to use them for was seeing what they thought of Jesus, why they wanted to kill Him.
It's your perogative to say

and its my perogative not to believe you.

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ok?

ok - you say He cant be fully God and fully man - I say He can.

DancesWithGnostics said:

ok - you say He cant be fully God and fully man - I say He can.

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the statement contradicts itself, you can only be one or the other unless you belive the Most High is the same as the rest of us.

the Most High sent Jesus, the Father never said He Himself was coming and you dont send yourself. when my wife sends me to the store she would never say that thinking she is sending herself to the store. Jesus sits at His own right hand, prayed to Himself, etc. the trinity just does not pass the common sense test.