Can sin be in the presence of a Holy God ?

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ChristisGod

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Here is a question for the group which I believe Christianity has been duped into believing a false concept of God.

Many preachers, teachers, pastors, theologians etc..... say the following:

God cannot look upon sin, God cannot allow sin into His presence, God must turn away from looking at sin and similar cliché's .

Is this biblical ?

ABSOLUTELY NOT !

Has anyone ever read the opening chapter of Job ?

What we read and find happening there is a conversation between satan ( the epitome of sin,evil etc..) and God over His protection of His servant Job. So we see this conversation between God and satan in heaven over Job. satan is allowed into the very presence of God.

Jesus is fully God and was taken away into the wilderness to be tested by satan. They were " face to face" speaking to one another and Jesus was tested/tempted by satan.

Jesus washed judas feet knowing he was about to go and make that treacherous deal with the leaders to betray Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus said it would of been better that person never have been born than to be the one who betrayed Him.

Jesus lived among sinful people His entire life as God Incarnate. He came to save sinners. He lived with them, ate with them, healed them, loved them etc.....and eventually died for them even forgiving those who mocked and crucified Him on the cross.

So God does not turn away from sin nor sinners but in fact pursues us, loves us and died for us.

Paul was KILLING christians( horrific sins) yet Jesus knocks Saul off of his horse and asks him why are you persecuting Me ?

Jesus pursued Saul who became Paul and converted him on the road to Damascus.

These are just a few things for us to think about and have our minds renewed about what is true about God and what is not true.

Do you agree or disagree ?

hope this helps !!!
 

Heart2Soul

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Here is a question for the group which I believe Christianity has been duped into believing a false concept of God.

Many preachers, teachers, pastors, theologians etc..... say the following:

God cannot look upon sin, God cannot allow sin into His presence, God must turn away from looking at sin and similar cliché's .

Is this biblical ?

ABSOLUTELY NOT !

Has anyone ever read the opening chapter of Job ?

What we read and find happening there is a conversation between satan ( the epitome of sin,evil etc..) and God over His protection of His servant Job. So we see this conversation between God and satan in heaven over Job. satan is allowed into the very presence of God.

Jesus is fully God and was taken away into the wilderness to be tested by satan. They were " face to face" speaking to one another and Jesus was tested/tempted by satan.

Jesus washed judas feet knowing he was about to go and make that treacherous deal with the leaders to betray Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus said it would of been better that person never have been born than to be the one who betrayed Him.

Jesus lived among sinful people His entire life as God Incarnate. He came to save sinners. He lived with them, ate with them, healed them, loved them etc.....and eventually died for them even forgiving those who mocked and crucified Him on the cross.

So God does not turn away from sin nor sinners but in fact pursues us, loves us and died for us.

Paul was KILLING christians( horrific sins) yet Jesus knocks Saul off of his horse and asks him why are you persecuting Me ?

Jesus pursued Saul who became Paul and converted him on the road to Damascus.

These are just a few things for us to think about and have our minds renewed about what is true about God and what is not true.

Do you agree or disagree ?

hope this helps !!!
I was taught that in church as well....and just last week I was looking for that scripture to quote it in a thread and I never found it.
This is a good example why we should study the Word ourselves...without knowing it how can we know if the pastor is not in error of what he is preaching.
 

ChristisGod

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I was taught that in church as well....and just last week I was looking for that scripture to quote it in a thread and I never found it.
This is a good example why we should study the Word ourselves...without knowing it how can we know if the pastor is not in error of what he is preaching.
Yes and we have been told in pulpits across both continents that the Father turned His back on the Son and could not look upon Him because He became the sin bearer. That is another misconception as well.
 

ChristisGod

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Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my [c]groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me [g]sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within [l]me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me [m]in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.

22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

12 facts about God and Jesus last words. Some people teach when Jesus said My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me that the Father departed, deserted and turned His back upon His Son to bear Gods wrath on the cross. But is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

1-God is Triune
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated or abandoned.
3- God doesn't send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning and all the gospel accounts work together along with the OT quotations
6- Jesus words come from Psalm 22
7- Psalm 22 must be understood in the context of the crucifixion
8- Jesus last words were this " Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit "
9- Psalm 22 has numerous fulfillment's during His Crucifixion
10- Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him etc......
11- Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help
12- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus trust and relationship with the Father saying into your hands I commit MY Spirit.

God is LOVE. In Love the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

We must understand how Gods attributes all work in harmony together not in opposition to each other. All of Gods attributes and His character flow from His Love for God is Love.

God being Love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is Love and that Love is perfect lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love by definition has to be expressed with another which is why a unitarian god cannot be Love. Love requires another to share and express that Love and it’s what we see with the Triune God. God is Love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation there was no sin hence no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, justice etc................. Why because those are Gods secondary attributes. God’s Love is a primary attribute like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes.

All doctrine begins with God at its starting point.

We can see the entire Psalm 22 which is Messianic was being played out before their very eyes and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22 being lived out before them. It’s a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, Gods One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. And let’s not forget Jesus promise to the sinner- TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. You see The Trinity was never fractured, broken or severed for even a moment but together the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning.

God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.

God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor the ECF's. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc…….as if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

Jesus bearing Gods wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is nothing but an urban legend.

The following scriptures affirm Jesus relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

hope this helps !!!
 

Nancy

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Here is a question for the group which I believe has been duped into believing a false concept of God.

Many preachers, teachers, pastors, theologians etc..... say the following:

God cannot look upon sin, God cannot allow sin into His presence, God must turn away from looking at sin and similar cliché's .

Is this biblical ?

ABSOLUTELY NOT !

Has anyone ever read the opening chapter of Job ?

What we read and find happening there is a conversation between satan ( the epitome of sin,evil etc..) and God over His protection of His servant Job. So we see this conversation between God and satan in heaven over Job. satan is allowed into the very presence of God.

Jesus is fully God and was taken away into the wilderness to be tested by satan. They were " face to face" speaking to one another and Jesus was tested/tempted by satan.

Jesus washed judas feet knowing he was about to go and make that treacherous deal with the leaders to betray Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus said it would of been better that person never have been born than to be the one who betrayed Him.

Jesus lived among sinful people His entire life as God Incarnate. He came to save sinners. He lived with them, ate with them, healed them, loved them etc.....and eventually died for them even forgiving those who mocked and crucified Him on the cross.

So God does not turn away from sin nor sinners but in fact pursues us, loves us and died for us.

Paul was KILLING christians( horrific sins) yet Jesus knocks Saul off of his horse and asks him why are you persecuting Me ?

Jesus pursued Saul who became Paul and converted him on the road to Damascus.

These are just a few things for us to think about and have our minds renewed about what is true about God and what is not true.

Do you agree or disagree ?

hope this helps !!!
Yes, I agree it is not biblical. Christ came TO sinners to pull them away from it, save them from it, guide them in a total different direction.

A good point Christophony, and yes, I can see how a false concept of God could be developed by believing this..
 

Heart2Soul

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Yes and we have been told in pulpits across both continents that the Father turned His back on the Son and could not look upon Him because He became the sin bearer. That is another misconception as well.
Yes that's what I remember and have quoted all my life until I went to find it in scripture...
Good post!
 

Heart2Soul

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Yes and we have been told in pulpits across both continents that the Father turned His back on the Son and could not look upon Him because He became the sin bearer. That is another misconception as well.
Yes that's what I remember and have quoted all my life until I went to find it in scripture...
Good post!
 

CharismaticLady

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Yes, I agree it is not biblical. Christ came TO sinners to pull them away from it, save them from it, guide them in a total different direction.

A good point Christophony, and yes, I can see how a false concept of God could be developed by believing this..

That being said, there are some who believe God will let sinners into heaven. But the letters to the seven churches requires us to overcome before we die. Why, if it doesn't matter? Revelation 22:11 shows the two different groups: those who will go to hell, and those who will be allowed into heaven.
 
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Nancy

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That being said, there are some who believe God will let sinners into heaven. But the letters to the seven churches requires us to overcome before we die. Why, if it doesn't matter? Revelation 22:11 shows the two different groups: those who will go to hell, and those who will be allowed into heaven.
Yes, the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. As one of my fave teachers always say's "There are NO shoats and no geeps ha! Christians as a whole from observation, really need to take "sin" much more seriously. There are so many that are still worldly and think it is alright. They don't understand, and trying to talk to them is sometimes worse than talking with worldly folks. This is one reason it is very hard to find true fellowship. I pray for their hunger to increase, their hunger for God and all He has done and continues to do. Even with the very little I do understand, they have no clue! Oh well...
 
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CharismaticLady

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Yes, the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. As one of my fave teachers always say's "There are NO shoats and no geeps ha! Christians as a whole from observation, really need to take "sin" much more seriously. There are so many that are still worldly and think it is alright. They don't understand, and trying to talk to them is sometimes worse than talking with worldly folks. This is one reason it is very hard to find true fellowship. I pray for their hunger to increase, their hunger for God and all He has done and continues to do. Even with the very little I do understand, they have no clue! Oh well...

I like that! Geeps and Shoats. LOL
 
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Nancy

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I like that! Geeps and Shoats. LOL
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