The Trinity definition

Christophany said:

My point is that I'm not alone with my position regarding the Trinity and Deity of Christ. The Creeds support my position as do the Scriptures I believe with all my mind, heart and soul. We will just have to agree to disagree as the saying goes.

Just an FYI whether or not we agree on this I will respect your views and treat you as a sister in Christ.

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Truth is no determined by popular vote: it remains as Truth is all believe or just one. Hence my lack of concern about popularity.

I do thank you for that respect. It shows. And likewise, brother.

jaybird said:

Moses and angels are called elohim, do you think they are the Most High?

no, you can not be both. if Jesus is the Most High that makes Him nothing like the rest of us because we are NOT the Most High. how are not seeing this problem?

sin is evil, do you think Satan was tempting Jesus with holiness?

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JB, I think you have done a smashing job thus far in discussing this subject of THE MOST HIGH to a new 'high.' You have clearly shown that this Greek idiom and phrase can only apply to our Father. I feel now compelled and so moved by your patiently delivered arguments, that I want to now capture its essence and incorporate it as a summary in my ongoing Commentary of the Bible I'm still writing.... that I believe I spoke to about a couple of year or so ago...

Keep up the Bible Study..you and @DNB ....explain scripture, as two distinct styles and approaches, that are edifying to me, at least...APAK

DNB said:

I would say that one cannot be saved believing in the trinity, because I believe that there is no efficacy in God propitiating Himself, nor can He be tempted or die, nor is there any point in Him raising Himself from the dead in order to sit by His own right-hand side. I trust that you can appreciate my contentions.

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you said, "God cannot be tempted or die", well that's a false statement. God can be tempted/tested, but not with "EVIL". supportive scripture, Malachi 3:10 "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
and here the term "PROVE" is the Hebrew word,
H974 בָּחַן bachan (baw-chan') v.
1. to test (especially metals).
2. (generally and figuratively) to investigate.
[a primitive root]
KJV: examine, prove, tempt, try (trial).

and now to "DIE", scripture, Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Ignorance shows that there is "TWO" deaths. the first death is of the flesh.. NATURAL DEATH. and there is a SECOND death that there is no return from, Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

see, many are still mislead. so based on your statement, knowing that you LIE, are you saved?", based on the statement you gave. see no one can claim anything, untill the Lord say so. so instead of questing anyone's salvation, lets do this, scripture, Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

APAK said:

JB, I think you have done a smashing job thus far in discussing this subject of THE MOST HIGH to a new 'high.' You have clearly shown that this Greek idiom and phrase can only apply to our Father. I feel now compelled and so moved by your patiently delivered arguments, that I want to now capture its essence and incorporate it as a summary in my ongoing Commentary of the Bible I'm still writing.... that I believe I spoke to about a couple of year or so ago...

Keep up the Bible Study..you and @DNB ....explain scripture, as two distinct styles and approaches, that are edifying to me, at least...APAK

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Thanks APAK, likewise!
Best of luck with the Commentary, it believe that it will be a great definition to the sound, wise and glorifying Word of God!

DNB said:

Thanks APAK, likewise!
Best of luck with the Commentary, it believe that it will be a great definition to the sound, wise and glorifying Word of God!

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AMEN to that, indeed!

Christophany said:

Just an FYI whether or not we agree on this I will respect your views and treat you as a sister in Christ.

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Contradiction! How can @Jane_Doe22 be a sister in Christ, to you, when you have emphatically declared that her views are heretical?
Just saying...?

101G said:

you said, "God cannot be tempted or die", well that's a false statement. God can be tempted/tested, but not with "EVIL".

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But the whole point of the Gospel is that Jesus was tempted with evil, by satan himself?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What the heck are you talking about?

101G said:

and now to "DIE", scripture, Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

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That was Jesus, what the heck are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?

101G said:

Ignorance shows that there is "TWO" deaths.

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If ignorance is behind the notion, then why the heck did you just try to prove it as valid?!?!?!?!??!?!

101G said:

see, many are still mislead. so based on your statement, knowing that you LIE, are you saved?"

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What planet are you from?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

Christophany said:

She has acknowledged the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. So for you she cannot be a sister.

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Clarification here: I disagree with the Athanasain Creed’s Trinity statement about God. Specially that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one through a shared substance. Rather, I believe them to be one through unity.

Christophany said:

She has acknowledged the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. So for you she cannot be a sister.

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Interesting, ...if that is the case, then yes, she can be a sister to you, ...but, that is entirely incorrect, Christophany. @Jane_Doe22 is not trinitarian, she has stated that countless times, as she has often said that she disagrees with us on our Christologies.
Again, just saying...

Christophany said:

I thought you just said you don't use outside sources and didn't care what the masses have to say ?

So now that you brought this up please explain the differences. Thanks !

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I don’t look to popular vote sources for God’s Truth, as I said. But I am aware of their existence and have reviewed them ( I am an extremely thorough study).

I’ll take a minute to type up my thoughts for your second question.

DNB said:

But the whole point of the Gospel is that Jesus was tempted with evil, by satan himself?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What the heck are you talking about?

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in flesh as a man, in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), yese, because who did he temp? the Son of man or the Son of God?

and God the Spirit, in or out of flesh, still stand, James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

DNB said:

That was Jesus, what the heck are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?

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here's what the heck I'm talking about, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
that word "BEING" is present tense. and that which is of God is his own "NATURE" in that flesh. BINGO. as said, our Lord , JESUS, God, "TOOK PART" in our humanity, but was not a "PARTAKER" in it. you might need to find out the difference between, "TOOK PART" vs "PARTAKE"... YIKES!

DNB said:

If ignorance is behind the notion, then why the heck did you just try to prove it as valid?!?!?!?!??!?!

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not IGNORANCE, but your IGNORANCE, which is a difference... (smile) if for YOU to prove. but since you're in IGNORANCE of the Word of God, the NATURAL DEATH that God died from is scripture, James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

did you get that? what "died?" ... that body, not the spirit.... lol. do you see you, your, your IGNORANCE now? God is a Spirit, and in flesh he's a "diversified" spirit.... YIKES!.

see how easy it is to reprove you.

DNB said:

What planet are you from?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

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(SMILE), the third Rock for this sun.... lol.

now, READ CAREFULLY below,
Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

it's amazing to me that some christian, (not all), believe that the Lord Jesus the ordinal Last is some kind of "shaliah". ERROR, the scriptures states differently. for our Lord mission was a spiritual one, not a physical one. the bondage that the people needed was, from "SIN", all those saviours before was from physical bondage when one nation overtook Isarel. but there is one bondage that a natural man could not deliever from... "SIN". it took God to do that, and he did.

so the Unitarians Doctrine is just as false as the three separate and distinct person doctrine.
Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

@Christophany

Ok, starting with the obvious basics: the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself or pat Himself on the back with “This is my beloved son”, etc. Three different persons. Each one of them is divine (God), everlasting, all powerful, all merciful, all just, etc.

But how are these three persons one God? Because they are indeed one God.

The Athanasian Creed, written ~500 AD, states that this is through a shared substance: “God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person.”

Now, most people’s reading of this first reaction is “huh?????”. Which was mine as well. Scripture itself does not use this phraseology, nor does it resemble common language. There’s also a lot of confusion about it in Trinitarian proclaiming pews. It’s a subject that takes a lot of study to get through, Greek philosophy being particularly useful. As this is not my belief, I’ll skip going into it further. If somebody wants a wikipedia article, see Consubstantiality - Wikipedia

What is my belief: that the Father, Son and Spirit are one through unity. The same divine Will, Goodness, Mercy, Justice, Glory, knowledge, etc. If the person of the Spirit tells you something, it might as well come straight from the Son. Any glory done in the Son’s name is also glory for the Father. Etc. I see this supported in scripture, particularly John 17, where the Son prays that his disciples might be one even as He and the Father are one. It’s not through a shared substance, but through a shared will / goodness/ love/etc.

Christophany said:

agreed !

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@justbyfaith
These are just at the top of my head, i gathered them in 5 minutes. God is called the Father hundreds of times in Scripture, never, ever the Son or Spirit. Christ emphatically stated that all his power and authority comes exclusively from the Father. IN all the doxologies in the Epistles, The Father is distinguished from the Son, except for one or two exceptions, and the Holy Spirit is never, ever mentioned at all. In the Book of Revelation, where Christ is in his exalted state, never is the Holy Spirit even mentioned. And we could go on till the cows come home.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28

15:27. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Matthew 24:36

24:36. "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:26-27

5:26. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

John 5:30

5:30. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 6:37-40

6:37. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65

6:65. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 10:17-18

10:17. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 10:29

10:29. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:32

10:32. but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

John 13:3

13:3. Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John 14:16

14:16. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

John 14:28

14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 15:1

15:1. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

John 15:8

15:8. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

John 15:15

15:15. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

John 15:26

15:26. "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 17:2

17:2. "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.


Romans 1:7

1:7. to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3

3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Galatians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle ( not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2. and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Philippians 1:2

1:2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1-4

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2. To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4. since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3. constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2. Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2. To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, 2. To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4

1:4. To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3

1:3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:1

1:1. James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

1 Peter 1:3

1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:2

1:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 John 1:3

1:3. Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1:1

1:1. Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

101G said:

God is a Spirit, and in flesh he's a "diversified" spirit

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What planet are you from?!?!?!?!??!