The Trinity definition

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Jane_Doe22

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Would you agree they share the same Divine Nature ? ie all the Attributes or Qualities that make God, God ?
What exactly do you mean by each of these words?

I will agree that they each are:
All loving
All merciful,
All just,
All powerful,
All glorious,
All knowing

I could go on.
 

101G

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and the Holy Spirit is never, ever mentioned at all. In the Book of Revelation, where Christ is in his exalted state, never is the Holy Spirit even mentioned. And we could go on till the cows come home.
ok, in the Lord Jesus exalted state who was sent into all the EARTH? Hmmm, lets see, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

who is the, "Spirit of God, having seven horns and seven eyes, sent into all the earth?

101G said,
God is a Spirit, and in flesh he's a "diversified" spirit

DNB said, "What planet are you from?!?!?!?!??!"

well just answer the question above, Revelation 5:6 and you'll have your answer.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

DNB

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ok, in the Lord Jesus exalted state who was sent into all the EARTH? Hmmm, lets see, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

who is the, "Spirit of God, having seven horns and seven eyes, sent into all the earth?

101G said,
God is a Spirit, and in flesh he's a "diversified" spirit

DNB said, "What planet are you from?!?!?!?!??!"

well just answer the question above, Revelation 5:6 and you'll have your answer.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Smarten up, there are countless spirits in the heavenly realms. Are you trying toi equate these 7 spirits that have been sent out to all the earth, as the Holy Spirit of the trinity, or of modalism?
Don't waste my time 101G, with your childish eisegesis.
 

Mjh29

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Neither did ever one conversion take place in the New Testament, where a trinitarian formula was invoked in order to confirm or assure the recipient's confession or salvation.

Pretty sure Jesus answers this question; By whose name are we saved?

Matt. 28 Verses 19 to 20
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. "

Christ attributes equal power in salvation to Himself, to the Father, and to the Holy Ghost. And if they were all the same person, isn't him saying "baptize them in the name of me, and of myself, and if I" the same redundancy you were talking about? They're all equally God, but different persons. Not different beings; different persons.
 
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DNB

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Pretty sure Jesus answers this question; By whose name are we saved?

Matt. 28 Verses 19 to 20
[19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. "

Christ attributes equal power in salvation to Himself, to the Father, and to the Holy Ghost. And if they were all the same person, isn't him saying "baptize them in the name of me, and of myself, and if I" the same redundancy you were talking about? They're all equally God, but different persons. Not different beings; different persons.
@Christophany
Your jumping to conclusions, as always. There were many types of Baptisms in the New testament. Some people had only heard about the Baptism of John, and had not received the Spirit. Others were baptized with water and spirit, others were baptized with fire. Matthew giving a comprehensive overview of what is involved in salvation, as in the Father's orchestration, the Son's fulfilment, and the Sprit's testimony after the fact, do not by any means whatsoever, denote a single god, redundantly comprised of three all powerful persons, now does it?

Don't try and play exegete by simply trying to change the meaning of words and expressions, or by trying to do linguistic acrobats using semantics.
Try and appreciate what you're saying - the transcendent and immortal God did not die on a cross in order to propitiate Himself, nor in order to expiate man from His own wrath, now did He?
If the utter redundancy of His ontology is not bad enough, it is the entirely foolish Atonement process that should give anyone pause in espousing such overall meaningless nonsense.
 

101G

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Smarten up, there are countless spirits in the heavenly realms. Are you trying toi equate these 7 spirits that have been sent out to all the earth, as the Holy Spirit of the trinity, or of modalism?
Don't waste my time 101G, with your childish eisegesis.
well how about just a little bit of your time... :D

your answer please, and notice Spirit is capitalized. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." and a foot note, the seven Spirits are not individual Spirits, it's just sysbolism for completeness.

so is the seven "Spirit" the Holy Spirit? yes or no.

don't be childish if you cannot answer, (smile), or sit on the sidelines a learn..... LOL,,,,, :rolleyes:

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

DNB

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well how about just a little bit of your time... :D

your answer please, and notice Spirit is capitalized. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." and a foot note, the seven Spirits are not individual Spirits, it's just sysbolism for completeness.

so is the seven "Spirit" the Holy Spirit? yes or no.

don't be childish if you cannot answer, (smile), or sit on the sidelines a learn..... LOL,,,,, :rolleyes:

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
Grow up, the manuscripts were in majuscules.
 

Mattathias

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I didn't see the edit page, but in the Tyndale Bible if the Word, The Father’s logos (“it”) was God and you're saying that ("it") was the Father's logos, so why then did John say the Word, (IT) was God then?
but I have more question,

It (logos) is expressive of God. It is with him.

You have logos. It is expressive of you. It is with you.

I have logos. It is expressive of me. It is with me.

In his prologue, John is inviting his readers to think back to the creation narrative in Genesis. God spoke, he expressed himself, and what existed only in his mind was brought into literal existence/being. (“God said, ‘Let there be ____ .’ And there was ____ .”)
 

justbyfaith

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We can only follow our heart

Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Pro 28:26, He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.


that would mean Jesus is 50/50, half Most High and half man,

No; Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God. it does not mean that he cannot be tempted in His humanity but not in His Deity.

There are 100 million non-trinitarian Christians. Has God voided their love for Christ? No. False doctrine, mental blocks will impede your growth, but it doesn't mean your faith is invalid. Some have weak faith.

I believe that the deciding factor is the doctrine of Christ's Deity (John 8:24). In this, Oneness Pentecostals are saved but JW's aren't, as non-trinitarians. Denying that Jesus is the Lord (God) means that the person does not have the Spirit of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).
 

justbyfaith

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@Christophany

Ok, starting with the obvious basics: the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself or pat Himself on the back with “This is my beloved son”, etc. Three different persons. Each one of them is divine (God), everlasting, all powerful, all merciful, all just, etc.

But how are these three persons one God? Because they are indeed one God.

The Athanasian Creed, written ~500 AD, states that this is through a shared substance: “God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person.”

Now, most people’s reading of this first reaction is “huh?????”. Which was mine as well. Scripture itself does not use this phraseology, nor does it resemble common language. There’s also a lot of confusion about it in Trinitarian proclaiming pews. It’s a subject that takes a lot of study to get through, Greek philosophy being particularly useful. As this is not my belief, I’ll skip going into it further. If somebody wants a wikipedia article, see Consubstantiality - Wikipedia

What is my belief: that the Father, Son and Spirit are one through unity. The same divine Will, Goodness, Mercy, Justice, Glory, knowledge, etc. If the person of the Spirit tells you something, it might as well come straight from the Son. Any glory done in the Son’s name is also glory for the Father. Etc. I see this supported in scripture, particularly John 17, where the Son prays that his disciples might be one even as He and the Father are one. It’s not through a shared substance, but through a shared will / goodness/ love/etc.

How do you have this understanding as a mormon in light of Mosiah 16:15?
 

justbyfaith

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@justbyfaith
These are just at the top of my head, i gathered them in 5 minutes. God is called the Father hundreds of times in Scripture, never, ever the Son or Spirit. Christ emphatically stated that all his power and authority comes exclusively from the Father. IN all the doxologies in the Epistles, The Father is distinguished from the Son, except for one or two exceptions, and the Holy Spirit is never, ever mentioned at all. In the Book of Revelation, where Christ is in his exalted state, never is the Holy Spirit even mentioned. And we could go on till the cows come home.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28

15:27. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Matthew 24:36

24:36. "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:26-27

5:26. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

John 5:30

5:30. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 6:37-40

6:37. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65

6:65. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 10:17-18

10:17. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 10:29

10:29. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:32

10:32. but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

John 13:3

13:3. Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

John 14:16

14:16. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

John 14:28

14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 15:1

15:1. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

John 15:8

15:8. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

John 15:15

15:15. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

John 15:26

15:26. "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 17:2

17:2. "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.


Romans 1:7

1:7. to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3

3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

Galatians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle ( not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2. and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Philippians 1:2

1:2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1-4

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2. To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4. since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2. We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3. constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2

1:1. Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2. Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope, 2. To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1-2

1:1. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, 2. To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4

1:4. To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Philemon 1:3

1:3. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:1

1:1. James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

1 Peter 1:3

1:3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:2

1:2. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

2 John 1:3

1:3. Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1:1

1:1. Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

I believe that all of these are answered by the first 6 posts in my thread, True Trinity., and by the understanding that the Greek word for "and" is "kai" which is translatable as "even."
 

Mjh29

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@Christophany
Your jumping to conclusions, as always. There were many types of Baptisms in the New testament. Some people had only heard about the Baptism of John, and had not received the Spirit. Others were baptized with water and spirit, others were baptized with fire. Matthew giving a comprehensive overview of what is involved in salvation, as in the Father's orchestration, the Son's fulfilment, and the Sprit's testimony after the fact, do not by any means whatsoever, denote a single god, redundantly comprised of three all powerful persons, now does it?

Don't try and play exegete by simply trying to change the meaning of words and expressions, or by trying to do linguistic acrobats using semantics.
Try and appreciate what you're saying - the transcendent and immortal God did not die on a cross in order to propitiate Himself, nor in order to expiate man from His own wrath, now did He?
If the utter redundancy of His ontology is not bad enough, it is the entirely foolish Atonement process that should give anyone pause in espousing such overall meaningless nonsense.

Well firstly, I would like to extend greeting. I am not Christophony, which leads me to wonder how well you actually read things that are posted; are you open to correction, or is being right more important than having the truth?

With that out of the way, I would like to address a couple of things. Firstly, there is one kind of baptism; even when Christ Himself was baptized, the Father Son and Holy Ghost were all there separately, taking part in this. While Matthews testimony alone does not denote the Trinity, the fact that Christ says this himself, and commands from His own mouth that we hold the Father, Son, and Spirit in the same esteem should be a good indicator that we are dealing with 3 distinct
Persons. Again, Christ saying that we should baptize in The name of Him, Him, and Him is redundant and wouldn't even make any sense. He was obviously denoting a distinction of persons. But we need to search the whole of Scriptures, and from there we can see that Christ and the Father are one, and yet the Father says to His son "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." He does not say "this is me, in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus meant he was well pleased with himself, then why in so many other passages does gen purposely deflect glory to the father?
Why does He ask the father to "take this cup from me, yet not MY will but THY will be done."
I think it is fairly obvious that he wasn't saying "not my will but my will be done." When Christ is on the Cross, he says "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Again, Christ was not saying "Myself myself, why have I forsaken me?" The intimate relationship Christ has with the Father is not one of a person illuding to multiple modes of existence.

As for the Spirit, Christ says that he will send a comforter in his place; now who could take the place of God but God himself? And yet, Christ says that his spirit will indeed take his place. He is by saying "I will leave and come back in a different form." The words in my place show that he would be gone, and that a distinct person would be there in His place.

Everything in the way Christ interacted with both the Father and Spirit is far too intimate to be just Him illuding to being in multiple modes

I would also like to say that many people use big strong words to cover up small, weak theology. I am not saying this is you; however too many people come onto this site with a chip on their shoulder, refusing to even believe for a second they may be wrong.
 
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justbyfaith

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the Father Son and Holy Ghost were all there separately,

They are distinct not separate.

and from there we can see that Christ and the Father are one, and yet the Father says to His son "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." He does not say "this is me, in whom I am well pleased."

In saying, "This is my beloved Son" He is in fact saying "this is me"...assuming that the people who are His audience know what it says in Isaiah 9:6, which is a messianic scripture.

If Jesus meant he was well pleased with himself, then why in so many other passages does gen purposely deflect glory to the father?
Why does He ask the father to "take this cup from me, yet not MY will but THY will be done."

The members of the Trinity are in fact distinct but they are also ONE. I would suggest reading post #5 in my thread on the Trinity (True Trinity.).
 

DNB

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I believe that all of these are answered by the first 6 posts in my thread, True Trinity., and by the understanding that the Greek word for "and" is "kai" which is translatable as "even."
and yet not one translation interprets it that way, not one, and at a minimum, not in the majority sense.
 

DNB

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Well firstly, I would like to extend greeting. I am not Christophony, which leads me to wonder how well you actually read things that are posted; are you open to correction, or is being right more important than having the truth?

With that out of the way, I would like to address a couple of things. Firstly, there is one kind of baptism; even when Christ Himself was baptized, the Father Son and Holy Ghost were all there separately, taking part in this. While Matthews testimony alone does not denote the Trinity, the fact that Christ says this himself, and commands from His own mouth that we hold the Father, Son, and Spirit in the same esteem should be a good indicator that we are dealing with 3 distinct
Persons. Again, Christ saying that we should baptize in The name of Him, Him, and Him is redundant and wouldn't even make any sense. He was obviously denoting a distinction of persons. But we need to search the whole of Scriptures, and from there we can see that Christ and the Father are one, and yet the Father says to His son "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." He does not say "this is me, in whom I am well pleased." If Jesus meant he was well pleased with himself, then why in so many other passages does gen purposely deflect glory to the father?
Why does He ask the father to "take this cup from me, yet not MY will but THY will be done."
I think it is fairly obvious that he wasn't saying "not my will but my will be done." When Christ is on the Cross, he says "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Again, Christ was not saying "Myself myself, why have I forsaken me?" The intimate relationship Christ has with the Father is not one of a person illuding to multiple modes of existence.

As for the Spirit, Christ says that he will send a comforter in his place; now who could take the place of God but God himself? And yet, Christ says that his spirit will indeed take his place. He is by saying "I will leave and come back in a different form." The words in my place show that he would be gone, and that a distinct person would be there in His place.

Everything in the way Christ interacted with both the Father and Spirit is far too intimate to be just Him illuding to being in multiple modes

I would also like to say that many people use big strong words to cover up small, weak theology. I am not saying this is you; however too many people come onto this site with a chip on their shoulder, refusing to even believe for a second they may be wrong.
You've posted 1300+ times on this forum, and you are unaware that using the @ is intended to include someone else on a particular post, namely the OP in this case? Who's the oblivious one?

Are you kidding me, you took 4 paragraphs to substantiate the distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit i.e. something that I've been professing from the start of this thread? Who's the oblivious one?

And then, you use just one verse to try and justify the incomprehensible nonsense that Jesus is God, a concept that would require at a minimum, several pages to qualify as divine truth?
AND, on top that, the sole principle that you chose to defend your position, does not by any stretch of the imagination necessitate oneness to mean ontology - have you any grasp of what one in the spiritual sense actually means?
Genesis 2:24, Ephesians 5:31, Matthew 19:5: a man shall leave his parents and become one with his wife.
1 Samuel 18:1: King David and Jonathan loved each other so much, that they became one.
John 17:20-22: Jesus told all believers to become one with the Father and Jesus, in the exact same way that Jesus and the Father are one.

Now, Mr. accusative, who has no chip on his shoulder, after that debacle, are you willing to admit that you may be wrong, and are probably wrong, demonstrably so?
 
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APAK

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It (logos) is expressive of God. It is with him.
this You have logos. It is expressive of you. It is with you.

I have logos. It is expressive of me. It is with me.

In his prologue, John is inviting his readers to think back to the creation narrative in Genesis. God spoke, he expressed himself, and what existed only in his mind was brought into literal existence/being. (“God said, ‘Let there be ____ .’ And there was ____ .”)
Yes, logos is the expression associated and inextricably tied to being. I prefer to add it is the expressive purpose(s) or idea(s) of being.

Also, yes, John does point to Genesis in the 'beginning' of his report to YHWH's expressive purpose of creation. Although I think the stronger argument and direction he wants to take the reader is to highlight his main subject, as did the other Gospel writers: Yahshua, the Son of YHWH.

He wants the reader to know YHWH's primal purpose even over the creation of all material/non-material things, and bringing them into existence, was to eventually create from the seed of man/woman, our Lord and Saviour. Thus John 1:1-2 was written first, that led to John 1:14. YHWH's primal expressive purpose or idea was to create a man, the 2nd and final Adam to restore his relationship with all men through this Son of Man he would also call his Son.

Blessings,

APAK
 
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