WHAT IS THE MYSTERY?

Doug said:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Christ revealed the mystery to Paul, which is the body of Christ. The body of Christ was formed to reconcile the heavenly places (Colossians 1:20). This mystery was not made known to anyone before Paul, nor can it be found anywhere in the law and the prophets in scripture.

If those of the world had known this, they would not have crucified the Lord Jesus.

Peter and the disciples could not have known this mystery and therefore could not have preached the body of Christ, nor be members of it. They preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel (the Davidic kingdom on earth...Matthew 4:23) and the name of Jesus (Acts 10:43).

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There you go again - inventing things that scripture does not say.

1. Where does scripture say this "mystery" was revealed only to Paul?

2. Where does scripture say that this "mystery" is the body of Christ?

The answer to both is nowhere!

Paul writes of many mysteries.

Rom 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in

Rom 16:25
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages

1Cor 15:21
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

Eph 1:9
For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ

Eph 3:3
how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

Eph 3:4
When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ

Eph 5:32
This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

Eph 6:19
and also for me, that utterance may be given me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26-27
the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Col 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged as they are knit together in love, to have all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, of Christ,

Col 4:3
and pray for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison,

2Thess 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

1Tim 3:9
they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

1Tim 3:16

Doug said:

I did not say it was revealed only to Paul....it was not revealed before Paul

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Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Doug said:

I did not say it was revealed only to Paul....it was not revealed before Paul

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Scripture doesn't say it wasn't revealed before Paul.

Doug said:

Ephesians 5:30-32

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because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

The mystery that "a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” was revealed in Gen 2:24

I believe this video will add to our discussion.

Title: The Fullness

CadyandZoe said:

I believe this video will add to our discussion.

Title: The Fullness

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I don't watch long videos. This is a discussion forum not a cinema.

Mungo said:

I don't watch long videos. This is a discussion forum not a cinema.

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That's okay. I create these videos because our world is now image based. We communicate through images now. And so I am attempting to preach the gospel through video in order to reach more people for Jesus.

The "mystery" as Paul understood it, is the fact that the Messiah needed to die on a cross and be crucified for his people. A corollary and effect of the cross is the fact that both Jew and Gentile have access to the Father through the Holy Spirit.

In his epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians he refers to the body of Christ as "the plaroma" or in English, "the fulness." Thus the title of the Video. (smile)

CadyandZoe said:

That's okay. I create these videos because our world is now image based. We communicate through images now. And so I am attempting to preach the gospel through video in order to reach more people for Jesus.

The "mystery" as Paul understood it, is the fact that the Messiah needed to die on a cross and be crucified for his people. A corollary and effect of the cross is the fact that both Jew and Gentile have access to the Father through the Holy Spirit.

In his epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians he refers to the body of Christ as "the plaroma" or in English, "the fulness." Thus the title of the Video. (smile)

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If you read post #5 you will see that Paul refers to different things as a mystery.
What is your scriptural support for the one you picked?

Mungo said:

If you read post #5 you will see that Paul refers to different things as a mystery.
What is your scriptural support for the one you picked?

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The various texts referring to mystery all referred to the same thing, except perhaps the one regarding the Resurrection. But mungo answered the question...

Mungo said:

Col 1:26-27
the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

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KJV Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The finishing of the mystery of God is the ending of the work of the gospel. And the end of the work of the gospel is first, the removal of all vestige of sin and the bringing in of everlasting righteousness... That is, Christ fully formed in the life of every believer...

KJV Colossians 1:27
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

See also...
KJV Galatians 5:24
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
KJV Galatians 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
KJV Romans 6:4-6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
KJV Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV Colossians 2:11-14
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
KJV Romans 6:8, 13
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
KJV 1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory....

.... The gospel.

Backlit said:

The various texts referring to mystery all referred to the same thing, except perhaps the one regarding the Resurrection. But mungo answered the question...

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In general, any information that remains hidden is a mystery. Some mysteries can be solved by inspection and discovery. However, information that only God would know remains a mystery until he reveals that information to a prophet or an apostle. According to Paul, God has revealed the "mystery of Christ", which was unfamiliar to the prophets of old, to the apostles of Jesus Christ including Paul but not limited to Paul.

Mungo said:

If you read post #5 you will see that Paul refers to different things as a mystery.
What is your scriptural support for the one you picked?

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I base my answer on my study of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. The unique mystery God revealed to Paul was not the body of Christ as you suggest but that due to Jesus' death on the cross, the Gentiles have access to the promises of the Gospel. And they become fellow heirs with Jewish believers.

CadyandZoe said:

I base my answer on my study of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. The unique mystery God revealed to Paul was not the body of Christ as you suggest but that due to Jesus' death on the cross, the Gentiles have access to the promises of the Gospel. And they become fellow heirs with Jewish believers.

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It was Doug in the OP that suggested the mystery was the body of Christ.

Doug said:

That Gentiles would become fellow heirs with Israel is being in the body of Christ, the one new man of Ephesians 2:15 (Ephesians 3:6 says in "the same body", which is the body of Christ).

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Of course. My point is this. The body of Christ existed before Paul.

CadyandZoe said:

Of course. My point is this. The body of Christ existed before Paul.

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Problems for the Traditional View

Three major problems exist for the traditional view. The first is God explicitly stated through the apostle Paul that the Church, the Body of Christ, was a “secret,” (μυστήριον). This presents a serious problem for the traditional view because Paul made this declaration long after Pentecost.

The second problem confirms the first point. No Biblical evidence exists to support the view that anyone at Pentecost recognized that the Church, i.e., the Body of Christ, had come into existence. On the contrary, the Scriptural evidence indicates at Pentecost the Twelve knew nothing about the Body of Christ. Peter only addressed Jews. But Paul declared the Church was that organism in which Jew and Gentile are equal. Peter obviously did not know this else he would have addressed Gentiles. Furthermore, only Paul wrote about the Body of Christ (Romans 12.5; 1 Corinthians 10.16, 17, 12.12, 13, 18, 25, 27; Ephesians 1.23, 2.16, 3.6, 4.4, 12, 16, 5.30; Colossians 1.18, 2.17, 19, 3.15). Such terminology is absent from the Gospels and the letters of Peter, James, John, Jude.

Lastly, Peter and the Eleven were looking for the fulfillment of prophecy, i.e., the kingdom of God on earth which God had revealed through the prophets, not the beginning of a new “Church” age. The Old Testament contains not a word about the Church, the body of Christ. The prophets, John, and Jesus had revealed nothing of the fact that Jew and Gentile would be equal in Christ in a Body. On the contrary, Peter quoted Joel and expected the “sun to be turned into darkness and the moon into blood” (Acts 2.15-21). Peter expected the Lord to come in judgment and to establish His kingdom.

The logical argument for rejecting the traditional view that the Church began on Pentecost is the following: Paul stated the Church, the Body of Christ, was a secret. This means that the Church as the Body of Christ was an unknown entity. Paul declared this long after Pentecost. Nothing from the record at Pentecost indicates the Twelve knew anything about the Body of Christ. Peter and the other disciples knew only about the coming earthly kingdom of God. They knew nothing of Jew and Gentile becoming equal in the “body of Christ” seated in the heavens with heavenly citizenship (Ephesians 1.3; Philippians 3.20; Colossians 1.5). Therefore, it is impossible for the Body of Christ to have begun at Pentecost.https://doctrine.org/the-church-the-body-of-christ

hope this helps !!!

Christophany said:

Problems for the Traditional View

Three major problems exist for the traditional view. The first is God explicitly stated through the apostle Paul that the Church, the Body of Christ, was a “secret,” (μυστήριον). This presents a serious problem for the traditional view because Paul made this declaration long after Pentecost.

The second problem confirms the first point. No Biblical evidence exists to support the view that anyone at Pentecost recognized that the Church, i.e., the Body of Christ, had come into existence. On the contrary, the Scriptural evidence indicates at Pentecost the Twelve knew nothing about the Body of Christ. Peter only addressed Jews. But Paul declared the Church was that organism in which Jew and Gentile are equal. Peter obviously did not know this else he would have addressed Gentiles. Furthermore, only Paul wrote about the Body of Christ (Romans 12.5; 1 Corinthians 10.16, 17, 12.12, 13, 18, 25, 27; Ephesians 1.23, 2.16, 3.6, 4.4, 12, 16, 5.30; Colossians 1.18, 2.17, 19, 3.15). Such terminology is absent from the Gospels and the letters of Peter, James, John, Jude.

Lastly, Peter and the Eleven were looking for the fulfillment of prophecy, i.e., the kingdom of God on earth which God had revealed through the prophets, not the beginning of a new “Church” age. The Old Testament contains not a word about the Church, the body of Christ. The prophets, John, and Jesus had revealed nothing of the fact that Jew and Gentile would be equal in Christ in a Body. On the contrary, Peter quoted Joel and expected the “sun to be turned into darkness and the moon into blood” (Acts 2.15-21). Peter expected the Lord to come in judgment and to establish His kingdom.

The logical argument for rejecting the traditional view that the Church began on Pentecost is the following: Paul stated the Church, the Body of Christ, was a secret. This means that the Church as the Body of Christ was an unknown entity. Paul declared this long after Pentecost. Nothing from the record at Pentecost indicates the Twelve knew anything about the Body of Christ. Peter and the other disciples knew only about the coming earthly kingdom of God. They knew nothing of Jew and Gentile becoming equal in the “body of Christ” seated in the heavens with heavenly citizenship (Ephesians 1.3; Philippians 3.20; Colossians 1.5). Therefore, it is impossible for the Body of Christ to have begun at Pentecost.https://doctrine.org/the-church-the-body-of-christ

hope this helps !!!

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First, silence is not evidence. Second, Paul didn't say the body of Christ was a mystery.

CadyandZoe said:

First, silence is not evidence. Second, Paul didn't say the body of Christ was a mystery.

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He sure does read it below in living color

Ephesians 3
Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 5
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

hope this helps !!!

Christophany said:

Problems for the Traditional View

Three major problems exist for the traditional view. The first is God explicitly stated through the apostle Paul that the Church, the Body of Christ, was a “secret,” (μυστήριον). This presents a serious problem for the traditional view because Paul made this declaration long after Pentecost.

The second problem confirms the first point. No Biblical evidence exists to support the view that anyone at Pentecost recognized that the Church, i.e., the Body of Christ, had come into existence. On the contrary, the Scriptural evidence indicates at Pentecost the Twelve knew nothing about the Body of Christ. Peter only addressed Jews. But Paul declared the Church was that organism in which Jew and Gentile are equal. Peter obviously did not know this else he would have addressed Gentiles. Furthermore, only Paul wrote about the Body of Christ (Romans 12.5; 1 Corinthians 10.16, 17, 12.12, 13, 18, 25, 27; Ephesians 1.23, 2.16, 3.6, 4.4, 12, 16, 5.30; Colossians 1.18, 2.17, 19, 3.15). Such terminology is absent from the Gospels and the letters of Peter, James, John, Jude.

Lastly, Peter and the Eleven were looking for the fulfillment of prophecy, i.e., the kingdom of God on earth which God had revealed through the prophets, not the beginning of a new “Church” age. The Old Testament contains not a word about the Church, the body of Christ. The prophets, John, and Jesus had revealed nothing of the fact that Jew and Gentile would be equal in Christ in a Body. On the contrary, Peter quoted Joel and expected the “sun to be turned into darkness and the moon into blood” (Acts 2.15-21). Peter expected the Lord to come in judgment and to establish His kingdom.

The logical argument for rejecting the traditional view that the Church began on Pentecost is the following: Paul stated the Church, the Body of Christ, was a secret. This means that the Church as the Body of Christ was an unknown entity. Paul declared this long after Pentecost. Nothing from the record at Pentecost indicates the Twelve knew anything about the Body of Christ. Peter and the other disciples knew only about the coming earthly kingdom of God. They knew nothing of Jew and Gentile becoming equal in the “body of Christ” seated in the heavens with heavenly citizenship (Ephesians 1.3; Philippians 3.20; Colossians 1.5). Therefore, it is impossible for the Body of Christ to have begun at Pentecost.https://doctrine.org/the-church-the-body-of-christ

hope this helps !!!

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There are several things wrong with your analysis.
Firstly in Eph 3 Paul states that the "mystery" has been made known to "his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (vs 4). Therefoe the apostles knew the "mystery"

Secondly Eph goes on to state that the "mystery" is "how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel"
Jesus told the apostles to go to the gentiles (Mk 16:15, Mt 28:19) and in particular he sent Peter to the gentile Cornelius and his household. After that visit the assembled apostles in Jerusalem declared “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance unto life.”. That was before Paul came on the scene.

Thirdly in Eph 5 Paul is writing about husbands and wives and making a comparison between husbands and wives, and, Christ and the Church. He clearly states the comparison quoting Genesis 2:24 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh". The comparison here is the intimacy between husband and wife and the intimacy between Christ and the Church. Those "in Christ " - "in the Church" are like one flesh with Christ.
Jesus refers to this level of intimacy in the Last Supper discourses (John 15::4-7 and 17:20-26) and even more dramatically in John 6:53-58 & Mt 26:26).

Fourthly calling the Church the body of Christ is a metaphor. As a good orator Paul uses many metaphors or imagery in his letters to get across his message. We are not literally part of Christ's body, but talking of the Church as the body emphasises the unity of the people of the Church (cf John 17:20-21) and our intimate connection with Christ.
Just because one person uses a particular metaphor and another does not doesn't mean they are talking about different things.