Dancing With Jesus

mjrhealth said:

No its the method we choose to allow Him to try communicate with us, For Jesus said

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

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What did jesus say earlier in John 16:7, 8, 14
"7 Nevertheless, I am telling YOU the truth, It is for YOUR benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to YOU. 8 And when that one arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment...14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU."

The 'helper' was promised to bring knowlege about sin, righteousness and judgement. This one is the holy spirit. It was poured out on the diciples at Pentecost in 33ce Acts 2:33 and with its help these diciples began speaking in different languages Acts 2:4 (tongues) to spread the good news about Christ to the gentiles. The helper also helped them to understand deeper things in order to teach 1Corinthians 2:10 about how Christ saves us from our sins and death and many other teachings.

These teachings were laid down in the pages of the NT so that we could continue to benefit from them. To throw the bible away is like throwing the foundation for our understanding away....the foundation which was laid down by Jesus promise and by the holy spirit with Gods full approval and backing.

Do you really think that Jesus or God would be happy if we threw out the work he had laid down in the 1st century which was for our benefit?

Pegg said:

“Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

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My first thought when I read this: Heb. 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Pegg said:

1 John 4:9,10 Romans 5:8

Jesus sacrifice shows us the extent of Gods love....there is nothing he wouldnt give, not even his only begotten son, in order to prove his love for us.

God has shown us exactly how difficult such a thing was by asking Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son. And when Abraham showed his willingness God said to him "Now i KNOW that you love me because you have not held back your only son whom you so love"

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So you are saying that you know the breadth of God's love just by reading about Abraham? I disagree, Abraham would know because he was the one asked to sacrifice his son but unless you have been through what Abraham had been through you couldn't possibly relate.

You can't possibly know the limitless love of God by reading about it, it must be experienced. Read on in Ephesians 3 and you will see this truth and importance of experiencing God's love.

jiggyfly said:

So you are saying that you know the breadth of God's love just by reading about Abraham? I disagree, Abraham would know because he was the one asked to sacrifice his son but unless you have been through what Abraham had been through you couldn't possibly relate.

You can't possibly know the limitless love of God by reading about it, it must be experienced. Read on in Ephesians 3 and you will see this truth and importance of experiencing God's love.

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God has never since asked anyone to sacrifice their child, so basically what you are saying is that because none of us have been asked to do such a thing, we can never know the sacrifice that God made.

I dont beleive that at all. As a parent myself I can have some idea of the sacrifice God made....and the sacrifice Abraham was willing to make. We dont just read these account mechanically, we have to imagine ourselves in Abrahams shoes, we need to meditate on these accounts in order to grasp the deep spiritual meaning of them. When we do that, then we can begin to really understand the depth of what they mean.

But to ignore them completely is to say that they dont mean anything, that they are just ink on a page and that sort of reasoning is not going to help anyone have a deeper understanding of God or have his heart touched by the holy spirit.

And we experience Gods love when we love....experiencing his love is not about what he does for us, but about what WE DO for him and for our neighbours. He shows love because he is love, if we want to experience that love then we need to also 'show' love. We are not simply 'takers' of God, but we are 'doers' as James councels us to be
“Accept with mildness the implanting of the word which is able to save your souls. However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only.” James 1:21, 22

truthquest said:

My first thought when I read this: Heb. 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

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Here is a version rendering of this Hebrews passage that I spent time considering and found immense reward.

Hb 11:1 Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed.

When broken down into its various Greek elements, it is most closely related to the above translation, the Concordant Version. I have often found myself waffling on what Holy Spirit may be attempting to convict upon me, but doubt and emotion present such an obstacle to faith that certainty is elusive. I am assured that once I have attained to faith, it is seen by its proceeding forth as an assumption, not merely an idea or a belief. It is an actual force, the faith of Christ in me, that precludes waffling because the conviction has gone to the level of absolute belief and I freely assume, without interference of my mind, that what I embrace is truth.

While this may be considered hairsplitting and excessive, I have derived great satisfaction is knowing the things that are issuing forth of myself, whether they be of God, or no. Faith has its foundation is the future, not the present. Faith that is seen, that becomes manifested in the earth, is like expectation. Once it is seen, there is no need of it.

When the Lord returns and redeems our bodies, faith will no longer be needed, and expectation, or hope as rendered by most versions, will give way to reality, and only the love of God will be necessary for us. There will be no purpose to the former two, faith and hope, as the Christ of God will have been manifested to our eyes, and we will be as He is.
fivesense

Pegg said:

God has never since asked anyone to sacrifice their child, so basically what you are saying is that because none of us have been asked to do such a thing, we can never know the sacrifice that God made.

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Well there sure isn't anything recorded in the scriptures that indicates He has, but I haven't read anything about God working in you in the scriptures either but I sense that He has and does, so what should we believe? Should we believe only what is written or should we believe and be led by HolySpirit?

I dont beleive that at all. As a parent myself I can have some idea of the sacrifice God made....and the sacrifice Abraham was willing to make. We dont just read these account mechanically, we have to imagine ourselves in Abrahams shoes, we need to meditate on these accounts in order to grasp the deep spiritual meaning of them. When we do that, then we can begin to really understand the depth of what they mean.

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Can someone who has never been a parent know all the happiness and disappointments involved?

I do agree with you that being a parent can help us to associate by way of imagining God's sacrifice, but there is a difference between imagining and experiencing.

Reading in a book or magazine about Tahiti does not produce the same knowledge as going there in person. One is a virtual the other is reality.

But to ignore them completely is to say that they dont mean anything, that they are just ink on a page and that sort of reasoning is not going to help anyone have a deeper understanding of God or have his heart touched by the holy spirit.

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Have I ever said to ignore the scriptures, much less ignore them completely?

And we experience Gods love when we love....experiencing his love is not about what he does for us, but about what WE DO for him and for our neighbours. He shows love because he is love, if we want to experience that love then we need to also 'show' love. We are not simply 'takers' of God, but we are 'doers' as James councels us to be
“Accept with mildness the implanting of the word which is able to save your souls. However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only.” James 1:21, 22

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"And we experience Gods love when we love..." I agree with you here Pegg because God is love, and I agree we shouldn't be just takers but there is something very important missing here. To experience the love of God we must trust (rest) in Christ's work at the cross to make us righteous, holy, and without fault and this is what is pleasing to Father.

When I think of the wisdom and scope of God's plan, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. I pray that from His glorious, unlimited resources He will give you mighty inner strength through His Holy Spirit. And I pray that Christ will be more and more at home in your hearts as you trust in Him. May your roots go down deep into the soil of God's marvelous love. And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love really is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
Now glory be to God! By His mighty power at work within us, he is able to accomplish infinitely more than we would ever dare to ask or hope. May He be given glory in the church and in Christ Jesus forever and ever through endless ages. Amen. Ephesians 3:14-21


It is evident here to me how we are to grow in God's love and I don't see any instruction of it happening solely through reading scripture as a matter of fact scripture is not mentioned at all. Now let me make it clear, I am very thankful for the scriptures and I believe that the originals were inspired by God, but God has not limited his communication with us to those same scriptures. His Spirit lives within us, giving us power and abilities of the supernatural kind, leading and guiding us Himself and the scriptures, rather than laying claim to being our only guide, actually give testimony to HolySpirit being the One sent to guide and lead us personally and directly.

Of course God will always make provision for those who draw back or struggle with this kind of direct communion. One example is the Hebrew children, God's intent was that everyone would be a priest to Him but the people didn't respond with the same enthusiasm, so God made provisions by selecting a special group was selected to represent the people to Himself. All through the scriptures we can read of such cases where many have not responded towards God in the highest or best methods made available and it seems that we often have settled for the lesser and in many cases made that the standard. This is what many have done by making the scriptures and them alone the standard of God's communication with us, God's desire to commune with us is much more intimate than the scriptures alone will allow, it is by His Spirit. The same is true with religious liturgy in many groups and denominations it has become the standard yet Jesus said that God is seeking those who will worship Him in Spirit and Truth. We can be encourage by the scriptures to seek out the higher and more intimate way of relating with Father directly or we can use the scriptures as a veil and relate with Father indirectly.

jiggyfly said:

Well there sure isn't anything recorded in the scriptures that indicates He has, but I haven't read anything about God working in you in the scriptures either but I sense that He has and does, so what should we believe? Should we believe only what is written or should we believe and be led by HolySpirit?

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Yes we should be led by holy spirit, but it is dangerous to think that the holy spirit is going to come an sit down with us and have a nice ol chat to teach us about God.
I say its dangerous because the holy spirit is not a person, it is Gods spirit. Just as you have a spirit, so does God have a spirit and it encompasses all which is holy. If he gives us a portion of his spirit it can motivate us and help us to come to an understanding of things, but its not going to literally 'speak' to us.

And if a spirit is literally speaking to someone I would be very concerned that this spirit is not Gods spirit but rather an individual spirit such as Satan who 'keeps transforming himself into an angel of light' 2 Cor 11:14

jiggyfly said:

Can someone who has never been a parent know all the happiness and disappointments involved?
I do agree with you that being a parent can help us to associate by way of imagining God's sacrifice, but there is a difference between imagining and experiencing.
Reading in a book or magazine about Tahiti does not produce the same knowledge as going there in person. One is a virtual the other is reality.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately we cannot go back in time in order to experience Abrahams test ourselves. But if you are finding it hard to imagine what the situation must have been like for him, then you need to mediate on the situation. You could imagine yourself as Issac who allowed his father to tie his hands and place him on the alter. Imagine walking all the way up the mountain and not really knowing what you were doing up there until you father says "we will be offering God a sacrifice" and you ask him, "where is the sheep to sacrifice" and he says "you are the sacrifice today son"
You could imagine what it must have been like to believe that you were about to be killed because God asked it of you. What emotions must you be going thru knowing that your sacrifice is going to save all of mankind but you will have to loose your life...and if you dont go thru with it as God requests, then all of mankind will be doomed forever. A lot is riding on your shoulders and you are about to loose your life.

So imagine the sorts of emotions & fears you must be feeling. Now think about Jesus on the night before he died. What happened to him in the garden of Gethsemene? Imagine yourself being so stressed and anxious about what is about to happen to you (with your full knowledge) that you rub your forehead and see that your sweat has become drops of blood. Your body is actually bleeding with fear. The weight of the world is on your shoulders, your closests friends are soon to abandon you and you know that you are about to experience a cruel and painful torture and ridicule and death. You know that if you fail in any way at all...if you shout back at your accuser, or hide your face from your torturer, or feel any sort of hatred for your attackers that you will fail the father whom you love and your friends and all of mankind. You have to go thru the ultimate punishment knowing that you are completely innocent and you must allow all this to happen to you without feeling one tinge of anger.

That is what Jesus experienced and we will never have to go thru that, but he did and it was because of Gods love that he did it.

Do you love a stranger enought to go thru that? Can you imagine going thru that for a group of people who hate you and torment you? Think of the kid at school who called you names and tormented you thru your school years and now imagine yourself going thru that for him, so that he can have a better life.

jiggyfly said:

Have I ever said to ignore the scriptures, much less ignore them completely?
"And we experience Gods love when we love..." I agree with you here Pegg because God is love, and I agree we shouldn't be just takers but there is something very important missing here. To experience the love of God we must trust (rest) in Christ's work at the cross to make us righteous, holy, and without fault and this is what is pleasing to Father.

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True righteousness comes by meeting the standards of God. None of us can meet those standards though, which is why Jesus sacrifice does not literlly make us righteous. We should never think that we are righteous and holy because we are not.

Its important to understand what the sacrifice does for us. It gives us a new means by which we can be 'called' righteous. God is not looking for us to meet his perfect standards in order to be righteous as he did with Adam or the Isrealites, rather he is looking for us to have faith in Jesus sacrifice in order for us to be righteous. It doesnt make us without fault though. We are still sinners and we are still missing the mark of Gods perfect standards. We still committ sins, but the difference is that by Christs sacrifice, God is willing to forgive them because faith in his son is the temporary means by which we can be 'viewed' as righteous.

Tell me what do you think, Is it better to be a righteous person or is it better to be a good person? Which does God prefer?

Pegg said:

Yes we should be led by holy spirit, but it is dangerous to think that the holy spirit is going to come an sit down with us and have a nice ol chat to teach us about God.
I say its dangerous because the holy spirit is not a person, it is Gods spirit. Just as you have a spirit, so does God have a spirit and it encompasses all which is holy. If he gives us a portion of his spirit it can motivate us and help us to come to an understanding of things, but its not going to literally 'speak' to us.

And if a spirit is literally speaking to someone I would be very concerned that this spirit is not Gods spirit but rather an individual spirit such as Satan who 'keeps transforming himself into an angel of light' 2 Cor 11:14

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The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16 KJV

The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God; YLT

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, NASB

For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we are God's children. NLT

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1Tim.4:1

And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, YLT

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, NASB

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe; they will follow lying spirits and teachings that come from demons. NLT

But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 1Cor.2:10&11

Not sure why you disagree with the scriptures concerning HolySpirit, is it possible that you are just following what you have been taught by a denomination?
HolySpirit speaks to me often as does Jesus and Father.

Unfortunately we cannot go back in time in order to experience Abrahams test ourselves. But if you are finding it hard to imagine what the situation must have been like for him, then you need to mediate on the situation. You could imagine yourself as Issac who allowed his father to tie his hands and place him on the alter. Imagine walking all the way up the mountain and not really knowing what you were doing up there until you father says "we will be offering God a sacrifice" and you ask him, "where is the sheep to sacrifice" and he says "you are the sacrifice today son"
You could imagine what it must have been like to believe that you were about to be killed because God asked it of you. What emotions must you be going thru knowing that your sacrifice is going to save all of mankind but you will have to loose your life...and if you dont go thru with it as God requests, then all of mankind will be doomed forever. A lot is riding on your shoulders and you are about to loose your life.

So imagine the sorts of emotions & fears you must be feeling. Now think about Jesus on the night before he died. What happened to him in the garden of Gethsemene? Imagine yourself being so stressed and anxious about what is about to happen to you (with your full knowledge) that you rub your forehead and see that your sweat has become drops of blood. Your body is actually bleeding with fear. The weight of the world is on your shoulders, your closests friends are soon to abandon you and you know that you are about to experience a cruel and painful torture and ridicule and death. You know that if you fail in any way at all...if you shout back at your accuser, or hide your face from your torturer, or feel any sort of hatred for your attackers that you will fail the father whom you love and your friends and all of mankind. You have to go thru the ultimate punishment knowing that you are completely innocent and you must allow all this to happen to you without feeling one tinge of anger.

That is what Jesus experienced and we will never have to go thru that, but he did and it was because of Gods love that he did it.

Do you love a stranger enought to go thru that? Can you imagine going thru that for a group of people who hate you and torment you? Think of the kid at school who called you names and tormented you thru your school years and now imagine yourself going thru that for him, so that he can have a better life.

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So what is your point or counter point here Pegg?

True righteousness comes by meeting the standards of God. None of us can meet those standards though, which is why Jesus sacrifice does not literlly make us righteous. We should never think that we are righteous and holy because we are not.

Its important to understand what the sacrifice does for us. It gives us a new means by which we can be 'called' righteous. God is not looking for us to meet his perfect standards in order to be righteous as he did with Adam or the Isrealites, rather he is looking for us to have faith in Jesus sacrifice in order for us to be righteous. It doesnt make us without fault though. We are still sinners and we are still missing the mark of Gods perfect standards. We still committ sins, but the difference is that by Christs sacrifice, God is willing to forgive them because faith in his son is the temporary means by which we can be 'viewed' as righteous.

Tell me what do you think, Is it better to be a righteous person or is it better to be a good person? Which does God prefer?

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"It doesnt make us without fault though." Surely you have read Paul's letter to the believers at Colossi.


In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Col.1:22 KJV


in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- NKJV

yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. NLT

But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– NIV

yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— NASB

in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself, YLT

"A temporary means by which we can be 'viewed' as righteous." Do you have any scripture to support this?


I think it is obvious that we disagree on how God speaks to us. I think it is also obvious that you are not going to change your paradigm concerning this topic no matter how many scriptures I post in support of my view. For whatever reason(s) you seem to hold to and embrace the lesser method and deny the higher method of communicating and relating with father by HolySpirit. Especially seeing how you didn't respond to the scripture I quoted in Eph.3 I suppose it is best for you and me to agree to disagree.