The Lie Of Religion

bigape said:

Hello again Pegg
Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominations?
Each denomination is different, according to how close they stick to the Bible.

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Hi again,

or how far away from the bible their teachings take them. There are a lot of non biblical teachings among christians and as soon as your teaching is not based on the writings of God, they are an apostacy. So do you judge based on the church's fundamental teachings or their way of doing things?

bigape said:

I am an independent fundamental Baptist, and my "local Church" follows the Bible 100% of the time.
And we are on guard all the time, for any “unbiblical” practice sneaking in.)

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Are you including 'unbiblical teachings' in how you judge if a church is following the bible?

bigape said:

Well I have shown them from Scripture, where their faith is in error, yet they just don’t seem to get it. So all that is left for me to do is pray for them.

As for “the good that they strive to do”: As I have said, there is nothing wrong with that, unless you are doing it to somehow pay off God for your sins.
And that is what they are doing.

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If thats what their religion teaches, then you are right, it is quite incorrect because our works are not what saves us. As you point out, salvation is a free gift and it should be out of appreciation and coming to know Christ that we strive to better ourselves and live in harmony with how God wants us to live....thats what it means to be a christian.

bigape said:

Most false religions, weather they be Catholics or Jw’s or Mormons or 7th day adventist, etc. are all the same, at the heart.
Because they all teach “Salvation by good works”.

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I would just like to clarify something here. You say a false religion teaches 'salvation by good works'. I noticed you include jw's in that list and I have never heard anything about salvation by works in jw teachings. I found an article from the watchtower 1st June 2000 which clearly shows that they do not hold that view.

"Salvation is a gift from God, but it does not come automatically. (Romans 6:23) There are certain basic conditions that each individual must meet to qualify for that gift. Jesus said: “God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” And the apostle John added: “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life.” (John 3:16, 36) Clearly, God requires faith and obedience from each individual who hopes to obtain everlasting salvation. Each one must make the decision to accept the ransom and to follow in Jesus’ footsteps.
Since we are imperfect, it is not our natural inclination to obey and it is impossible for us to obey perfectly. That is why Jehovah provided a ransom to cover our sins. Nevertheless, we must continually strive to live in accord with God’s ways. As Jesus told the rich young ruler, we must keep God’s commandments. Doing so brings not only God’s approval but also great joy, for “his commandments are not burdensome”; they are “a refreshment.” (1 John 5:3; Proverbs 3:1, 8) Still, it is not easy to hold on to the hope of salvation."

I dont know about 7th day adventists or mormons, but i'd recommend that you do some research before making statements about other faiths...especially if you are going to declare them to be false religions because if you are wrong, as you are in this case, then it makes anything you say questionable.

bigape said:

Wrong; In the case of my OP, "religion" is the motivating factor, for their good works.
(They are being taught that if they do good works, they will be right with God!)

In Christianity, it is the indwelling Holy Spirit, that motivates and enables us to live a Godly life.
Salvation gives us a VICTORY over sin, so that we “don’t have to sin any more”!

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The holy spirit wont dwell in someone who does not apply & obey Gods word in their life. And God certianly wont implant his spirit in someone just so that they do act the way he wants. We all sin and will continue to sin whether we have holy spirit or not, until such time as God completely removes the stain of sin from us. And if you think that we dont sin then you need to ask why the Apostle Paul openly admitted that he continued to sin even though he was an Apostle of Christ and had recieved holy spirit. Romans 7:19-20

Also, i think its important to remember that no one is saved until the day of salvation. I cannot say that I have been saved because the day of salvation has not arrived yet. At that time God will decide who is worthy of salvation and who is not. If we have remained faithful until that time, then yes, we can be sure that God will grant us salvation as he has promised. But If I fall away or am living contrary to what God requires, then I just may be judged as unworthy of salvation. Jesus showed that this would be the case that that time in Matthew 7:22-23

bigape said:

No they are not, but they might as well be.
Most false religions, weather they be Catholics or Jw’s or Mormons or 7th day adventist, etc. are all the same, at the heart.
Because they all teach “Salvation by good works”.

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Excuse me....I am a Catholic, and I assure you that we never teach "salvation by good works." Salvation is a gift from God and comes only from God. Faith and grace are also gifts from God.

How do you know when a person has God's grace or has faith? In 2006, Pope John Paul II was shot by Mehmet Ali Agca. After the Pope recovered from the shooting, he visited Mehmet Ali Agca in jail and told him that he forgave him for the shooting. This is what you call God's grace. This is what you call having faith. How many people can actually forgive someone who just tried to kill them? How many people can actually love an enemy who tried to kill them? Grace and faith is shown when the Pope forgave the person who tried to kill him.

In 2006, in a small Amish town in Pennsylvania, five children were killed by Charles Roberts. The entire Amish town including the parents of those 5 victims forgave the killer and even reached out to the killer's family. Here, we can see God's grace in this Amish town. How many people can actually forgive a person who killed their own children? This is how we know God's grace is in those people. Do you think that a person who does absolutely NOTHING has any faith or God's grace? Do you think that a person who ONLY prays and attends church has any faith? Having the grace of God or having Faith is much more than just saying "I believe in God." It is also much more than just praying and attending church everyday. Afterall, the Pharisees prayed, fasted, and are in church everyday, but they didn't have faith nor grace. As St. James pointed out, ' Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith (James 2:18).

In other words, if you think you have faith and go through life without loving your enemy or forgiving anyone (which is actually works), then you don't know what faith is. God's grace is shown in those who love God and love their neighbors including their enemies. Being able to love your enemy and your neighbor is something that humans are unable to accomplish on their own. It can only be accomplish with the gift of faith or God's grace and through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the person.

In Christ,
Selene

Templar81 said:

May I ask what your relatives are actually doing wrong?

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This is the only post in this thread that has any value to me.

It is a question of course. But I have yet to see it answered.

Everything else is religion.

My opinion.

Hello bigape,

No they are not, but they might as well be.
Most false religions, weather they be Catholics or Jw’s or Mormons or 7th day adventist, etc. are all the same, at the heart.
Because they all teach “Salvation by good works”.

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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. This isn't good.

Firstly you can't call them false religions if they are Christian. Other religions are false, definately no problem there. I can't say too much for the ohers but the Catholic faith does not teach salvation by good works. It teaches the same message of Grace, whihc is freely given but you cannot earn it.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominations?
Each denomination is different, according to how close they stick to the Bible.

For instance Methodists, preach the right Gospel(the same message I preach), yet they aren’t as close to the Bible as I am, because most of them don’t baptize in the right way.
Also the Pentecostals, preach the same message I do for salvation(they are my brothers and sisters in Christ), yet they don’t stick as close to the Bible as I do, because of their tongue speaking and women preachers.

I am an independent fundamental Baptist, and my "local Church" follows the Bible 100% of the time.
And we are on guard all the time, for any “unbiblical” practice sneaking in.)

Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't think the problem is with your relatives. It's with you and your negative and blinkered attitude. I had an argument with some strict and particular Baptists once about Baptism. They saud that Baptism could only be done through full emmersion and I told them they were trying to limit God to their blinkered view. Be very careful Bigape because you are in danger of this, as well as the sin of pride. The Bible can be interpretted many ways to suit many different viewpoints and two people who both claim a litteral interpretation could have very different ideas. In many ways Catholics have a more litteral interpretation than most Evangelicals, e.g. Mathew 16 and the real presence of christ in teh Eucharist. This is just illustrative of how people interpret things differenly and yet still claim to be literal and I;m not going to say what is right or wrong, but I know what I believe.

Just think for a minute how you sound in your posts. Remember that the people Jesus had to rebuke were the ones who thought they had all the answers. There's nothing wrong with your faith and you're entitled to have opinions on other denominations, but I think you really need to sort out your attitude before you go preaching to others.

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bigape said:

Hello Selene

You have reacted, in the same way that my family reacts.
“How dare you”! “Look at all the good things we are doing;”
“How can you say that we are not right with God.”

I started to start off this response with, “how unfortunate that you read my post”, but it is not unfortunate at all.

Just as everyone else, who has a religion, and not a relationship with God, they are offended when faced with the truth.
But let me assure you, that I truly mean no disrespect to you at all.

In fact, I love you. I love you enough to tell you the Gospel truth.

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Hello bigape,

First of all, I was not offended by your response. I was correcting you. I did not say, "How dare you." I said, "Excuse me...."

Since you responded with the words, “we never teach”, I will respond to you personally.

Isn’t it true that you baptize babies?
This in itself teaches, salvation by good works.

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Yes, it is true that we baptize babies, and this has nothing to do with salvation by good works. We are followers of Christ. Christ was baptized in the River Jordan. All the Apostles were baptized including St. Paul. After the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles, St. Peter instructed everyone to be baptized, and this included children.

Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized, everyone one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."

We are called to follow Christ because He is the Way. Christ is our role model and the Way. We baptize because He was baptized with water and the Spirit. We also fast for 40 days because Christ fasted for 40 days in the desert. You say that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. But what good is knowing that Christ is the Way; yet, you cannot even follow in His footsteps the little things that He did?

But the Bible says that Jesus, is the only way to heaven......
1 Timothy 2:5
“For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

And Jesus said........
John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Not a Church or denomination, not a Pope or a priest, but Jesus.

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You are mistaken, my brother. Christ did build a Church. It says so in Matthew 16:18. The word "Church" even appears 77 times in the Bible. Therefore, your claim that there is no Church is false. As for the Pope, the Pope is the bishop of Rome. The name bishop, priests, and deacons appear in the Bible. It is true that Jesus is the Way, theTtruth, and theLlife, but it is also true that bishops, priests, and deacons were mentioned in the New Testament. Christ appointed the Apostles as His priests to go out and spread the Gospel, and the Apostles also appointed other bishops, priests and deacons to do the same. We also believe that Jesus is the only Mediator; however, we are not going to disregard the rest of the Bible by ignoring the fact that the Apostles appointed bishops, priests and deacons. We adhere to the entire word in the Bible and not just to certain parts of it because we believe that the entire bible is the Word of God, and not just certain parts.

Acts 14:23 They appointed presbyters (priests) for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith.

I see that this is both a question and a statement.
Because you continue with a litany of good works done by religious people.
This means nothing.

As I have said earlier, “religious good works”, done before salvation, are simply an attempt to pay God off for your sins.
But there is only ONE PAYMENT, that God will accept.
(And that is, The blood of Jesus.)

Now I am not judging those Amish people; I have never heard their salvation testimony.
But I do know, how the Catholic Church teaches it’s people how to gain favor with God.

Now I have never downplayed the importance of good works, in the life of a born again Christian and never will.
But good works alone, prove nothing.

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My brother, the letter of St. James states, "For just as a body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:26). Do you even know what St. James is speaking here when he talks about faith and works? Or is this simply another thing you ignore in the bible and just look at biblical scripture that you only like such as St. Paul saying in Galatians 2:16? Don't you think you should look at the entire Scripture and not just only scripture that you like? The Word of God does not contradict each other.

You will not judge the Amish people, but you judge Pope John Paul II for forgiving the person who tried to kill him?

An interesting statement, that doesn’t hold water.

There are millions of “none religious” people, all over the world, who have adopted a pacifist attitude, that have shown love to their enemies and even laid down their lives, for their “beliefs”, but have never claimed the name of Christ.

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Actually, it does hold water. Do you believe that God only works with Christians? Do you not know how powerful God is? God is so powerful that the Holy Spirit can even move Non-Christians. A Buddhist does not have the Holy Spirit in him because he doesn't believe in God, but God is powerful enough to move the actions of a Buddhist without him knowing it. Why do you limit God's power? Do you not know that in the Old Testament, God even used the pagans to defeat the Israelites when they turned against Him?

In Christ,
Selene

bigape said:

I have researched the false religions that I have listed, and for sure they all teach a false gospel.

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except that the claim you made is clearly not what is written by them, so your claim is false.

bigape said:

I notice that you have no Scripture to support this statement.
Because it is false.

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John 15:1-2, 3-4 Jesus tells us that we will not remain on the vine if we are not bearing the right fruit.
1 John 2:4-5 tells us that we will only remain in union with Christ if we continue to obey Gods commands.
John 15:10 tells us that to remain in Gods love, we must keep his commandments
1 Peter 1:15, 16 tells us that we must be holy...if we fail to maintain a level of holiness then we will become unclean

You cannot seriously tell me that there are no conditions for receiving holy spirit. If we meet the conditions we will receive it, but if we fail to live up to those conditions there is no way God will give it.

bigape said:

Pegg, I am glad to respond to this statement, because it is so filled with false teachings, that I am anxious to dispel them, using God’s Word.
First the idea, that we can’t say that we are saved.
The Bible says........
1 Corinthians 1:18
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

2 Timothy 1:8-9
V.8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
V.9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

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Hebrews 5:9 clearly identifies saved ones as those who 'obey'
Matthew 10:22 shows that we will be saved if we 'endure till the end'

So not only are there conditions such as obedience to consider, but there is also our own faithfulness till the end of our life required before salvation takes place. You cant just say that Jesus came and died for us therefore we are saved thru him without mentioning the 'requirements' placed on us in order to recieve that salvation. The first century christians knew full well what was required of them, they were under no illusion that they were saved and nothing more was needed of them.

To say we have faith is one thing, but to live the life of christ and obey and work at what is good is an entirely different thing.
We must know what is required of us in order to obtain salvation. Jesus warned his diciples of this when he said "not everyone saying to me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my father will"
That means we have to be 'doing' something.

bigape said:

The Bible says.......Lets actually read, Matthew 7:22-23......
V.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
V.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These folks were all those unsaved religious people that I have been talking about.
And Jesus makes it clear, that none of them were ever truly worshiping Him, but were from the beginning unsaved.
He said.....
“I never knew you”.

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He was speaking about his diciples. christians who knew him and believed they were doing what he asked. Christians who thought they were speaking in tongues by the holy spirit and performing powerful works by the holy spirit.

Christians like Diotrophes 3 John 9 and chrisitans who taught false teachings 2 Peter 2:1-3 and christians who tried to test the holy spirit like Ananais and his wife Acts 5:1-10

There are many of these types of christians around today also...chrisitans who prey on innocent children in their churchs, evangelists who want to fleece the flock of money, sunday christians who only go to church on Sunday but every other day forget they are christians. These are the ones jesus is speaking about.

Pegg said:

except that the claim you made is clearly not what is written by them, so your claim is false.



John 15:1-2, 3-4 Jesus tells us that we will not remain on the vine if we are not bearing the right fruit.
1 John 2:4-5 tells us that we will only remain in union with Christ if we continue to obey Gods commands.
John 15:10 tells us that to remain in Gods love, we must keep his commandments
1 Peter 1:15, 16 tells us that we must be holy...if we fail to maintain a level of holiness then we will become unclean

You cannot seriously tell me that there are no conditions for receiving holy spirit. If we meet the conditions we will receive it, but if we fail to live up to those conditions there is no way God will give it.




Hebrews 5:9 clearly identifies saved ones as those who 'obey'
Matthew 10:22 shows that we will be saved if we 'endure till the end'

So not only are there conditions such as obedience to consider, but there is also our own faithfulness till the end of our life required before salvation takes place. You cant just say that Jesus came and died for us therefore we are saved thru him without mentioning the 'requirements' placed on us in order to recieve that salvation. The first century christians knew full well what was required of them, they were under no illusion that they were saved and nothing more was needed of them.

To say we have faith is one thing, but to live the life of christ and obey and work at what is good is an entirely different thing.
We must know what is required of us in order to obtain salvation. Jesus warned his diciples of this when he said "not everyone saying to me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my father will"
That means we have to be 'doing' something.



He was speaking about his diciples. christians who knew him and believed they were doing what he asked. Christians who thought they were speaking in tongues by the holy spirit and performing powerful works by the holy spirit.

Christians like Diotrophes 3 John 9 and chrisitans who taught false teachings 2 Peter 2:1-3 and christians who tried to test the holy spirit like Ananais and his wife Acts 5:1-10

There are many of these types of christians around today also...chrisitans who prey on innocent children in their churchs, evangelists who want to fleece the flock of money, sunday christians who only go to church on Sunday but every other day forget they are christians. These are the ones jesus is speaking about.

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Don't forget what we pastors call the two timing christians who we see only at Christmas and Easter or weddings and funerals.

bigape said:

There is not ONE EXAMPLE found in Scripture, of infants being baptized.
And the Apostle Peter, NEVER said that infants should be baptized.

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Hello bigape,

The Scripture I posted showed that St. Peter stated that the promise of baptism is not only for adults but also for children. Again, see my previous post. Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

Also, Scripture shows that St. Paul baptize "household" of Stephanus (See 1 Corinthians 1:16). When St. Paul said that he baptized the entire household, it is obvious that a "household" also includes the children or babies in there. Do you know of any household that don't have any children and are all adults? In Acts 16:33, we have St. Paul baptizing Silas and his entire family. Common sense tell us that families also include children or babies.

This is the precise reason, why infants should never be baptized:
Because they can not repent!

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My brother, baptism is not only for the remission of personal sins, but also for original sin (which everyone is born with). Secondly, baptism is not only about the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is also about the initiation into the Christian community. Baptism is a replacement of circumcision and is called "the circumcision of Christ." That means that everyone who is baptized belongs to the Christian community.

Col. 2:11-12 In Him you were also circimcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

In the Old Testament, God called Abraham and his male descendents to circumcision to show that they are God's chosen people and that they are initiated into the Jewish community. Circumcision occurred at 8 months old (infants). In the New Testament, St. Paul replaced this Old Testament circumcision to what he called "circumcision of Christ" to show that they are also called by God and are initiated into the Christian community. This "circumcision of Christ" is baptism (Col. 2:11-12) and also occurs at 8 months old (infants).

As for the “40 day fast” you spoke of that Catholics practice, is actually the 40 days of lent that is observed. (This really isn’t a fast)
But this is a “good work”, in an attempt to help Jesus pay for your sins.

Where I live, my heart is broken every year during the Easter season.
Because I see Catholics everywhere participating in pilgrimages.

Walking to some old Church or holy site, and collecting “holy” dirt from that location, and using it in religious healing activities etc.
And some of them are carrying crosses and other acts of penance.

The Bible calls for REPENTANCE, not PENANCE!

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My brother, I am the one who is Catholic, and the 40 days of Lent is considered fasting because we are called to give up something during those 40 days. Because I am a Catholic walking in the Way, I do not eat meat during those 40 days.

And for your information, the word "Penance" comes from the Latin word "p

nit

ns" which means "a person who repents." So, does it really matter whether you use the word "penance," "confession," "repentance" or "reconciliation?" They pretty much mean the same thing.

People are saved by Jesus alone, and not by any denomination or religious person.

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Actually, your EXACT quote is "But the Bible says that Jesus, is the only way to heaven......Not a Church or denomination, not a Pope or a priest, but Jesus.”

I agree that Jesus is the way to Heaven, but I don't ignore the fact that Christ established a Church and appointed priests. You, on the other hand, don't seem to understand the importance of why Christ established a Church and appointed priests. Instead, you ignored it.

The question being discussed here, is “do good works, prove a person is saved”?
(1)I said it didn’t:
(2)Then you said it did, and you spoke of the Pope’s ability to forgive an attacker;
(3)Then I said, that didn’t hold water, because lots of people can do that;
(4)Then you came back and said?? “That it does hold water”, because even unbelievers can do it.

The bottom line here is, GOOD WORKS DO NOT PROVE SOMEONE IS SAVED.

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My brother, you say that I contradicted myself. However, it is actually you who contradicted yourself. You believe that ONLY faith can save a person, not good works. Yet, you ignored the scripture I showed you in James. It is true that a person cannot be saved by only good works. I agree with you on this, and as I said before, we never teach "salvation by good works." But we also believe that a person cannot be saved by ONLY faith alone. We also don't teach "salvation by faith alone." Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you believe that you are saved by doing absolutely nothing. So, could you explain the Scripture below:

James 2:28 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Could you explain what St. James is saying in this Scripture? As for Pope John Paul II, his forgiving the enemy who tried to kill Him is from the Holy Spirit. Ghandi, on the other hand, never forgave the British soldiers who persecuted him. All he did was practice civil disobedience. The Pope was not practicing civil disobedience. He was actually forgiving and loving the man who tried to kill him. To love your neighbor (and your enemy) is a commandment by God. It is being obedient to God's will. And only the Holy Spirit in us can accomplish this. You are incorrect to say that a lot of people forgive. No they do not.

As for Ghandi, who is a Non-Christian, he didn't love the British who occupied his country. He wanted them out of his country, and he practiced civil disobedience. In this case, he was moved by the Holy Spirit to practice civil disobedience, but the love for the enemy is not there. How do we know? We know because this is what Mohandas Ghandi said:

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. -Mohandas Gandhi.

Does this sound like a person who love and forgave his enemy who occupied his country for many years?

Now, is it possible for the Holy Spirit to move Ghandi in forgiving his enemies? Yes, of course because with God all things are possible? Is Gandhi saved if he forgave his enemies? This we don't know because we were never called to judge who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Only God judges. Is it possible that God could save a non-Christian like Gandhi? Yes, it is possible because Gandhi did admit that he liked Christ. But the truth is...we don't know because only God can judge. And God can have mercy on whomever He wants (Exodus 33:19 and Romans 11:32).

In Christ,
Selene

pastorlesofm said:

Don't forget what we pastors call the two timing christians who we see only at Christmas and Easter or weddings and funerals.

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quite right

there are many ways in which christians prove that they are not really followers of Christ. They are probably the ones who think along the lines of 'once saved always saved'

bigape said:

I think it’s time for another instalment.
(In trying to explain how true salvation, can not be by “good works”.)
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I see a small problem here. You are using the letter to the Romans to provide evidence that 'good works' have nothing to do with salvation, yet Paul is not speaking about 'good works'

He is speaking about the Mosaic law code...not an individuals 'good works'.

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned #ref=1without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For #ref=Jasit is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.



17 But if you call yourself a Jew and #ref=Rorely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law;
23 You who #ref=Roboast in the law #ref=Maldishonor God by breaking the law.
25 For circumcision indeed is of value #ref=Gaif you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law #ref=Mtwill condemn you who have #ref=Rothe written code and circumcision but break the law.


You are taking Pauls letter out of context. He is trying to show the jewish belivers that they are not depending on keep the mosaic law code for salvation. We have to read the entire letter in order to get the context right.


Your teaching is also contrary to the diciple James who reminds christians that a person with faith will have evidence of that faith...good works are an 'evidence of faith' they are not what give us salvation, but they are to be expected of a person with true faith. James 2:18-22

18 Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected"

bigape said:

Hi Selene

As I said before.....
There is not ONE EXAMPLE found in Scripture, of infants being baptized.
And the Apostle Peter, NEVER said that infants should be baptized.

And the Scriptures bear this out.
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The three passages you listed, "only seem" to support your position......
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(1)Acts 2:38-39
V.38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
V.39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Gospel had Just been preached and the assurance was given that this “promise” was for future generations.

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Hello bigape,

Okay, let's take a look at your responses. You say that Acts 2:39 is speaking about a promise for future generations. My brother, St. Peter clearly says, "For the promise is UNTO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN. That sounds more like he was speaking to people in the present tense. In fact, he was speaking to a crowd of people. The Greek word for children here is "tecknon" meaning offspring or children. If St. Peter was referring to a future generation, he would have used the Greek word "genea" instead of "tecknon." The people who were afar off were those who were geographically far away from Jerusalem. He was referring to the Gentiles.

(2)1 Corinthians 1:16
“And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.”

You are just assuming that this man's household, had infants in it.
(We should never base a doctrine on an assumption.)

But it’s not your fault; This is what false religions do, to deceive it’s members

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I see.....and YOU are assuming that this man's household don't have infants in it. You're saying that I should not make any assumptions that this man's household had infants in it, but it's okay for you to make the assumption that his household did not have any infants? But don't worry, it's not your fault. This is what false religions do, to deceive it’s members. REALLY, Bigape!

This is once again, the heart of the problem being talked about here:
BAPTISM IS NOT FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS;
The blood of Jesus is.......
Matthew 26:28
“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Neither is baptism for the “forgiveness of sins”.

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My brother, you just went against the Bible. These are the verses in the Bible that does say that Baptism is the remission of sins and forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

As you can see from scripture, baptism was required by God because it also signified a remission of sins and can also save us.

Water baptism, has NO POWER to forgive sins, original or otherwise.

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Perhaps, you know better than God who sent St.John the Baptist to baptize with water for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-77).

Perhaps, you know better than Jesus and the Apostles who were actually baptized with water? As I said before, we are followers of Christ because He is the Way. He was baptized in the River Jordan by St. John the Baptist, and He was baptized with water, and this is what we follow. His apostles also followed in that same example. As I told you before, what good is knowing that Christ is the Way; yet, you are unable to follow in His footsteps in doing the little things He did?

As for baptism being a “replacement” for circumcision, it is not;
For sure they are similar, but this is not the Old Testament and no longer are God’s people identified by a blood line.(the Jews)

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My brother, not only have you put down "water baptism" which was ordered by God through St. John the Baptist, but you also put down Christ's bloodline. Do you not know that Jesus was a Jew, and His bloodline was traced to Abraham (Matthew Chapter 1). Perhaps, your bloodline is not identified by the Jews, but I know that our bloodline is identified through Christ Himself (who is a Jew) and through His Apostles (who were also Jewish). We may not be Jews, but are we not all made in the image of God? Do you think that God only loves the Christians (Romans 10:11 and Col. 3:11). And as I pointed out in Scripture, when St. Paul spoke about "circumcision of Christ," he was speaking about baptism.

The CC may “consider it fasting”, but unless you don’t eat anything, than it is not a fast.
This is still another example, of the CC deceiving it’s members, by making them think that Catholic dogma, is somehow Biblical.

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According to Dictionary.com, below are the defintions of the word "FAST:"


fast
[sup]2 [/sup]  AC_FL_RunContent = 0;var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "17", "15", " Show Spelled[fast, fahst] Show IPA</SPAN> –verb (used without object)

1. to abstain from all food.

2. to eat only sparingly or of certain kinds of food, esp. as a religious observance. –verb (used with object)

3. to cause to abstain entirely from or limit food; put on a fast: to fast a patient for a day before surgery. –noun

4. an abstinence from food, or a limiting of one's food, esp. when voluntary and as a religious observance; fasting.

5. a day or period of fasting.

According to the dictionary, fasting is not just abstaining from ALL foods. It also means to eat sparingly or to abstain from certain food. So, as you can see, my brother, the Catholic Church did not invent any new meaning to the word "Fasting." You just simply don't know what the word means. As a Catholic walking in the Way, I do abstain from eating meat during those 40 days. Then on Good Friday until Sunday morning, I do not eat anything at all except water. Catholics who walk in the Way observe these stricter rules than other Catholics not walking in the Way. And yes, we fast because as I pointed out, we are followers of Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, our priests and bishop also wash the feet of other priests because we follow Jesus who also washed the feet of His disciples. This "washing of the feet" is done on Holy Thursday.

This is still another example of the subtle art of deception.
It’s interesting to see the Latin roots of the word penance, but that doesn’t change the “fact” that the word “penance” is not found in the Bible, in any language.

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The word "Bible" is also not found in the Bible in any language either. So what exactly is your point?

You know, the Bible only mentions “one” priest for the New Testament Church......
Hebrews 4:14-15
V.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
V.15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

The whole idea of a human priest or pope, standing between the LORD and His people, is an abomination to the LORD.......

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Actually, the Bible does mention human priests. Yes, Jesus is the High priest, but other priests were also mentioned who were human (See Acts 14:22). As you can see from Scripture, the Apostles appointed priests in every church, and these are human priests. So, are you saying that the Bible is wrong in mentioning these human priests that were appointed by Christ's Apostles? You are saying that it is an abomination for the Apostles to appoint these human priests in Acts 14:22 in every Church?

You keep bringing up what James said, about how “faith without works is dead”, even though I have explained this statement in post #3.

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My brother, in your paragraph 3, you only addressed James 2:14, 17, and 18. I was asking about James 2:28.

In Christ,
Selene

Pegg said:

I see a small problem here. You are using the letter to the Romans to provide evidence that 'good works' have nothing to do with salvation, yet Paul is not speaking about 'good works'

He is speaking about the Mosaic law code...not an individuals 'good works'.

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.



17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law;
23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.
25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.


You are taking Pauls letter out of context. He is trying to show the jewish belivers that they are not depending on keep the mosaic law code for salvation. We have to read the entire letter in order to get the context right.


Your teaching is also contrary to the diciple James who reminds christians that a person with faith will have evidence of that faith...good works are an 'evidence of faith' they are not what give us salvation, but they are to be expected of a person with true faith. James 2:18-22

18 Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected"

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Exactly! Excellent post. This is exactly what we believe in as well. Good works are an "evidence of faith" but they don't give us salvation because salvation comes only from God. And yes, they are to be expected of a person with true faith. Thus, the commandment "to love God and to love your neighbors" is actually visible in those who have true faith.

Selene said:

Exactly! Excellent post. This is exactly what we believe in as well. Good works are an "evidence of faith" but they don't give us salvation because salvation comes only from God.

And yes, they are to be expected of a person with true faith. Thus, the commandment "to love God and to love your neighbors" is actually visible in those who have true faith.

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glad we agree
The teaching is very clear in the bible that good works are an evidence of faith and its also clear the salvation is a gift, not something we deserve or earn.


I just noticed one point about the scriptures you used that you may not be aware of from your above post.

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"Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
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the scriptures in Mark and Luke are refering to Johns baptism and the 1 Peter scripture is refering to Jesus baptism. A point not often recognized is the fact that they baptized for different reason.

John baptized in symbol of repentence of sins as Mark and Luke point out. It was a public demonstration and symbol of the individual’s repentance over his sins against the Law, which was to lead the jews to Christ....in effect he was preparing the people to accept their Messiah Luke 3:6.

However Jesus was sinless, so he had no sins to repent of therefore when he was baptized by John, it was not because he was repenting of sins and this is likely why John tried to prevent him Matthew 3:13-14
Paul shows us that Jesus baptism was in symbol of 'doing Gods will' in Hebrews 10:5,6,7 where he applies the prophecies found in Psalm 40:6,7,8 "i have come to do your will"

So really, baptism in Jesus name involves much more then repentence of sins and this can be seen from the accounts about Apollos. He was a diciple who was teaching correctly about Jesus but was performing the same baptism as John the baptist. Paul had to re-baptize those diciples in ephesus in the name of Jesus so that they could recieve holy spirit. Acts 18:24-26 &
Acts 19:1-7 The purpose of the holy spirit being poured out is seen in Jesus words at Acts 1:8 "you will be witnesses of me to the most distant part of the earth"

Just as Jesus baptism was about 'doing Gods will', so must baptisms in the name of Jesus be about 'doing Gods will' as opposed to 'repentence of sins'

to say that someone is following or preaching a false gospel is "a matter of ones faith or opinion". carefull how you "judge" those who proclaim that jesus is the son of god, their personal savior and worship and reverence him in every way, as you have stated from your post (Most false religions, weather they be Catholics or Jw’s or Mormons or 7th day adventist, etc).

those that do this "must" be in god's favor. maybe you should get YOUR OWN house in order before you make those accusations.