Pre-Destined Elect - simplified.

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justbyfaith

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its still Calvinism where or not you want to admit it,

I will not deny that I believe in certain aspects of Calvinism

1/2 of the T (we can be sanctified entirely as believers but man is born with total depravity; also that when the Holy Spirit draws a man he is given the opportunity to receive or reject Christ; it is not a guarantee that he will be born again),

1/2 of the L (I do not believe in Universalism but that God gives every man a choice)

1/2 of the P (I believe in POTS not OSAS),

which was calvinism you were espousing ................

Doesn't necessarily mean that I believe in it...just that I am presenting the scriptures on it to enhance the discussion.
 

brightfame52

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ronald david,

You said some good things, but this caught my eye as error

.
I believe that God draws all men to Himself, but knows that many will not come and so according to His foreknowledge has chosen His elect.

The All men God draws to Himself is the Elect, His Sheep, or Christs Body the Church !
 

Ronald David Bruno

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ronald david,

You said some good things, but this caught my eye as error

.

The All men God draws to Himself is the Elect, His Sheep, or Christs Body the Church !

I don't think that is true. It would be fair to call all men, would it not?
The Gospel goes out to the entire world, to Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and every other false religion - including atheists. We witness and minister to all. Christ and all the Biblical principals have permeated the world. Every nation has heard this outward calling. Many resist and reject it. I can believe that to be fair, He speaks to them inwardly as well.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse
 

brightfame52

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I don't think that is true. It would be fair to call all men, would it not?
The Gospel goes out to the entire world, to Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and every other false religion - including atheists. We witness and minister to all. Christ and all the Biblical principals have permeated the world. Every nation has heard this outward calling. Many resist and reject it. I can believe that to be fair, He speaks to them inwardly as well.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse
Again I believe that you are in error on that point. The Gospel does go out to everyone but the inwardly drawing of the Spirit doesn't. It's limited to the Sheep.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Again I believe that you are in error on that point. The Gospel does go out to everyone but the inwardly drawing of the Spirit doesn't. It's limited to the Sheep.
Do you think that God guides the unbeliever, speaks to them,! whether they are His sheep or not?
 

ChristisGod

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Do you think that God guides the unbeliever, speaks to them,! whether they are His sheep or not?


Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

hope this helps !!!
 

brightfame52

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Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses
and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive
with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

hope this helps !!!
The question didnt really make sense to me. It sounded like something rigged up
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Have you checked the scripture first for that ?

Why would God commission the Church to go out and spread the gospel to everyone (His outward calling) and then only _ in secret _ call the elect inwardly? You might reason, "Because we don't know who they are and He does." No, as everyone hears the outward call, some resist and ignore it, but maybe later on finally respond. Others are ready, hear and respond sooner and still others firmly reject and develop this callous over their hearts so it becomes difficult. I think God calls inwardly the same way, guiding us, telling us "You ought to go this way" or "Don't do that", "This person is evil, stay away ..."
You don't know the thoughts that come into every persons mind, so how would you know?

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance."
If He is willing for all to come to repentance then it is fair to claim He called them but they just were too callous to hear. If we are incapable of coming to God unless He draws us, then reprobates have at least that excuse. "Yes, I saw the visible and invisible attributes of YOU in creation - but I was unable to come to YOU, YOU didn't draw me, You didn't call!"

Acts 17:30
Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Proverbs 8:4
“To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.

Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:1
“Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters ..."

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 11:28-30
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’


Romans 10:18
But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

Psalm 19:4
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

His inward call. As you study these, ask yourself if all of them only pertain to the elect.
Most verses that include God's calling are mostly speaking to believers.

These verses truly speak of God's effectual call, the final call that leads to our transformation. I make no argument there.
Rom.8:28, 30

In this verse it suggests many are not called.
1 Cor. 1:26
All I am saying is that His outward called echoes within the non-believer. He ponders it, dismisses it or it comes back later, lying dormant. And God brings the Word back to memory. All our thoughts aren't self generated. We receive them from an outside source and sometimes it is from God. Now you are claiming God does not speak to unbelievers. We were all unbelievers when we heard His call.
This verse suggests that not all that are called are saved.
Heb. 9:15. "... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
 

ChristisGod

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Why would God commission the Church to go out and spread the gospel to everyone (His outward calling) and then only _ in secret _ call the elect inwardly? You might reason, "Because we don't know who they are and He does." No, as everyone hears the outward call, some resist and ignore it, but maybe later on finally respond. Others are ready, hear and respond sooner and still others firmly reject and develop this callous over their hearts so it becomes difficult. I think God calls inwardly the same way, guiding us, telling us "You ought to go this way" or "Don't do that", "This person is evil, stay away ..."
You don't know the thoughts that come into every persons mind, so how would you know?

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance."
If He is willing for all to come to repentance then it is fair to claim He called them but they just were too callous to hear. If we are incapable of coming to God unless He draws us, then reprobates have at least that excuse. "Yes, I saw the visible and invisible attributes of YOU in creation - but I was unable to come to YOU, YOU didn't draw me, You didn't call!"

Acts 17:30
Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Proverbs 8:4
“To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.

Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:1
“Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters ..."

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 11:28-30
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matthew 22:9
Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’


Romans 10:18
But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

Psalm 19:4
Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

His inward call. As you study these, ask yourself if all of them only pertain to the elect.
Most verses that include God's calling are mostly speaking to believers.

These verses truly speak of God's effectual call, the final call that leads to our transformation. I make no argument there.
Rom.8:28, 30

In this verse it suggests many are not called.
1 Cor. 1:26
All I am saying is that His outward called echoes within the non-believer. He ponders it, dismisses it or it comes back later, lying dormant. And God brings the Word back to memory. All our thoughts aren't self generated. We receive them from an outside source and sometimes it is from God. Now you are claiming God does not speak to unbelievers. We were all unbelievers when we heard His call.
This verse suggests that not all that are called are saved.
Heb. 9:15. "... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
I can defend both the Arminian and Calvinism side of the argument.

Saying that the reason is both sides do not know who God will or will not save or who the elect are so the gospel is to be preached to all and God will save those who are the elect. Even when we are saved we can know that we have eternal life but we do not know the heart of another person, Only God knows our hearts.

hope this helps !!!
 

brightfame52

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ronald

Why would God commission the Church to go out and spread the gospel to everyone (His outward calling) and then only _ in secret _ call the elect inwardly? You might reason, "Because we don't know who they are and He does."

Lol You answered the question !
 
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brightfame52

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ronald

I think God calls inwardly the same way, guiding us, telling us "You ought to go this way" or "Don't do that", "This person is evil, stay away ..."

No inwardly is when the Spirit of God has indwelt a person and has given then spiritual ears to hear, a new heart, a new birth. Those who resist are those who hadn't been given spiritual circumcised ears and heart, like these Acts 7 51

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Obviously that's an outward call resisted, not the inward call that belongs to the regenerated or born again
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses
and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive
with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

hope this helps !!!
Thanks. I think I'm dealing with a Calvinist though.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

This verse supports my view. You said this was an outward call. God speaks to us inwardly with the exception when He audibly spoke to someone. Prior to Christ, the Holy Spirit did not dwell in the believer as you claim is necessary for an inward call to occur. According to this verse, the Father's resisted the Holy Spirit. You are saying that the Almighty is not capable of communicating to man unless he is born again and dwelling inside his temple. Don't put limitations on the Lord. Clearly the communication is much clearer when He lives inside. God spoke word for word through the prophets without having dwelt in them.
 

brightfame52

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This verse supports my view. You said this was an outward call. God speaks to us inwardly with the exception when He audibly spoke to someone. Prior to Christ, the Holy Spirit did not dwell in the believer as you claim is necessary for an inward call to occur. According to this verse, the Father's resisted the Holy Spirit. You are saying that the Almighty is not capable of communicating to man unless he is born again and dwelling inside his temple. Don't put limitations on the Lord. Clearly the communication is much clearer when He lives inside. God spoke word for word through the prophets without having dwelt in them.
No it doesnt, you think it does.
 

brightfame52

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ronald

Prior to Christ, the Holy Spirit did not dwell in the believer as you claim is necessary for an inward call to occur.

Thats not true, the Holy Spirit dwelt in believers in the OT He was in the Prophets 1 Pet 1 10-12

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow

Isaac was born after the Spirit Gal 4:29

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.