The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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Davy

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Since there is a lot of tiresome nonsense being published about (a) no Rapture, (b) a Post-Tribulation Rapture when that would be impossible, (c) a Rapture where Christians do not go to Heaven, (d) a Rapture which coincides absurdly with the Second Coming of Christ, etc., every Christian should be aware that a plain study of the Bible is sufficient to establish the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture as an important and critical Christian doctrine. You may ask why it is critical, and the answer from Scripture is that it is critical because it completes the salvation of the saints, which is glorification.



Right there in the above paragraph is where your vain attempt to deceive starts.

The Signs Lord Jesus Himself gave His Church for the timeline of His return to gather His Church is for AFTER... the tribulation like He said. What you say goes directly opposite of what Lord Jesus said. What you say is not to be relied on.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

That IS... the day of Christ's 2nd coming on the LAST DAY of this world, which is why He said it will be "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". It is when He will appear coming in the clouds like Revelation and all the Apostles reveal, and when He will gather His Church. And He linked it to the "day of the Lord" with His coming as a thief (Rev.16:15; Matthew 24:42-44; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4; 2 Peter 3:10).


The men behind the false pre-tribulation rapture theory are living behind a huge LIE against God's Word. They don't care if they lie either, as long as they can get their monies and fame among the deceived. God did not call nor send those men.
 

Enoch111

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The men behind the false pre-tribulation rapture theory are living behind a huge LIE against God's Word. They don't care if they lie either, as long as they can get their monies and fame among the deceived. God did not call nor send those men.
The person who has habitually tried to deceive others is yourself. Almost all your posts have presented false doctrine. So you should be the last person to talk about others being deceptive.

I have presented BIBLE TRUTH about the Rapture. You can take it or leave it. But you cannot accuse me of deliberate deception, since you are the deceiver, and I could prove it from your previous posts. However I have no interest in that. People who know their Bibles will see through your false doctrines.
 

Bobby Jo

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... That is not who Jesus is, and it shows you truly do not Know Him.

I have no problem allowing you to explain why this Verse of Scripture is FALSE, -- or any other Verse of Scripture is FALSE. So PLEASE tell us SPECIFICALLY why Jesus' FINAL INSTRUCTIONS before going to the Garden to be arrested and then crucified IS UNSCRIPTURAL.

And if you would, please summarize any other Books, Chapters, and/or Verses which we should remove from our Bibles! :)
Bobby Jo
 

Davy

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The person who has habitually tried to deceive others is yourself. Almost all your posts have presented false doctrine. So you should be the last person to talk about others being deceptive.

I have presented BIBLE TRUTH about the Rapture. You can take it or leave it. But you cannot accuse me of deliberate deception, since you are the deceiver, and I could prove it from your previous posts. However I have no interest in that. People who know their Bibles will see through your false doctrines.

I really would like to be a Christian brother to you, but you have already been shown enough direct Bible Scripture that reveals the doctrine of man you are on is against Christ Jesus.

So if you don't care about what our Lord Jesus said in His Word then I have no other recourse but to refuse to declare you as a brother in Christ Jesus.
 

Timtofly

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I Believe the process of birth is the simplicity of the end times chronology. Birth pangs lead to labor and delivery lead to Joy after sorrow.
So Tribulation which is the church age, Great tribulation, which is an acceleration under the Antichrist of all those birth pangs, followed by the birth, and sorrow turning to Joy. When You see this, Revelation chronology simplifies. This is the outline given by Jesus in the Olivet discourse.

Many a scholar has spent their entire life coming up with complex chronologies that take pages to explain, and need a PHD to understand, But in reality it is as simple as Birth, and everyone is familiar with that. The wicked have to worry about the wrath of God, But for the faithful, sorrow turns to Joy in our redemption.

God Bless.
Where is antichrist found in the Olivet Discourse?
 

Timtofly

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2. The DEAD are not raised until AFTER the Millennial Kingdom. (Rev. 20)
If you are part of this dead, you were never alive to begin with. Look up at the top of the page, and explain how some got resurrected 1000 years ago and ask yourself, why you are still dead in Death.
 

Timtofly

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Right there in the above paragraph is where your vain attempt to deceive starts.

The Signs Lord Jesus Himself gave His Church for the timeline of His return to gather His Church is for AFTER... the tribulation like He said. What you say goes directly opposite of what Lord Jesus said. What you say is not to be relied on.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

That IS... the day of Christ's 2nd coming on the LAST DAY of this world, which is why He said it will be "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". It is when He will appear coming in the clouds like Revelation and all the Apostles reveal, and when He will gather His Church. And He linked it to the "day of the Lord" with His coming as a thief (Rev.16:15; Matthew 24:42-44; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4; 2 Peter 3:10).


The men behind the false pre-tribulation rapture theory are living behind a huge LIE against God's Word. They don't care if they lie either, as long as they can get their monies and fame among the deceived. God did not call nor send those men.
"Those days" is pretty vague. It just means nonstop tribulation. It could be after the tribulation of those days of civid19, just like it could have been after the tribulation of those days of the Spanish flu and 2 world wars and the great depression. Would it have been wrong to say pre-covid19 rapture? Yes. Would it have been wrong to say pre-spanish flu, 2 world wars and the great depression rapture? Yes, because no one can set a date when the Trumpets and Thunders are going to happen and neither are "those days" tribulation events. In fact God on the throne and the Lamb will be on earth the whole time, because the Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest. The point where God and the Lamb come and take over the vinyard, and cast out those unfaithful stewards, ie the church. The faithful church will be raptured to Paradise. The wicked church will be destroyed in Death. How big of a tribulation time will the 4th Seal be? Is that enough tribulation of "those days" for you?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Revelation 6:12-17

12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”
 

Davy

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Committing the abomination of desolation, Paul elaborates more on this in 2 Thess.2

And yet the "abomination of desolation" event per the Book of Daniel will be committed by the coming Antichrist.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

KJV

That is about the placing of an idol abomination in the temple in Jerusalem for false worship. Today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build their new temple. Their Sanhedrin has formed up again. The snails for the special purple dye needed for the temple cloth has appeared again after having been gone for 2,000 years. They have been doing DNA studies to find Levitical priests. And many of the temple artifacts for temple worship have been recreated and are on display in Jerusalem.
 

marks

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1. THE REASON FOR THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
Before we even study the relevant passages, we need to ask ourselves “What exactly is the reason for the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints?” And unless we clearly understand God’s plan of salvation in Christ, we will not understand why the Resurrection/Rapture is critical.

We read in Romans 8:29,30:
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

While sanctification is not mentioned here, we know from the New Testament that God’s plan of salvation includes (1) justification, (2) sanctification, and (3) glorification (and perfection). The opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture conveniently forget that the saints must be glorified, and receive incorruptible, immortal, and glorified bodies, before they enter Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture is a single event before the Second Coming of Christ. This fact is sufficient to refute the foolish notion of a Post-Tribulation Rapture.
I've always found these threads interesting. To be clear, I'm am solidly Pre-Trib.

Just the same . . .

I feel it is a mistake to use the timing of the wedding feast of the Lamb as a pre-trib proof text. Certain assumptions made are that the Church is the bride of this feast, whereas it was Israel who was wed to God, divorced, and God said He would re-wed them.

There is the location of this feast. Jesus said "many will come from the east and west". Are east/west directions ever used of heaven? Or is this only of earth?

We, the church, are already bone of His bone, and flesh of His flesh.

Much love!
 

marks

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2. CHRIST PRESENTED THE RAPTURE BEFORE HIS CRUCIFIXION
Enemies of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture also conveniently forget that it was not John Nelson Darby in the 19th century but the Lord Jesus Christ is 30 AD, who first presented the doctrine of the Rapture to his apostles before His crucifixion. Which means that all the attacks on Darby, Scofield, etc. are bogus. And when misguided people call this a “theory” they are making Christ out to be a liar.

JOHN 14:1-3: THE RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS TO HEAVEN
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The key phrase here is “I will come again and receive you unto myself”. While this was first addressed to the apostles, it has general application to all the saints, since the apostles died as martyrs, and Christ did not come back from Heaven in the first century to take them up to Heaven. It should be noted that when Jesus said “Let not your hearts be troubled”, He automatically disconnected the Rapture from any Tribulation period.

IF in fact Jesus were prophesying the rapture of the gentile church, this puts the lie to Jesus', and then Peter's offer that if the Jews repented, were converted, that God would send Jesus back to them. It was only after Isreal rejected Jesus following His resurrection and ascension to heaven that the Gospel was sent directly to the Gentiles, to form the Gentile church which would then be raptured.

That Jesus would come again and receive them to Himself, this could describe rapture, but it can also describe regathering.

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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Committing the abomination of desolation, Paul elaborates more on this in 2 Thess.2
15 “So when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place.”

The False Prophet comes first. John the Baptist was the prophet that came prior to. The False Prophet comes first. No one in the NT announced an Antichrist. We have to put up with the FP prior to any False Messiah. Jesus points out an abomination that is not human.
 

Timtofly

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And yet the "abomination of desolation" event per the Book of Daniel will be committed by the coming Antichrist.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

KJV

That is about the placing of an idol abomination in the temple in Jerusalem for false worship. Today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build their new temple. Their Sanhedrin has formed up again. The snails for the special purple dye needed for the temple cloth has appeared again after having been gone for 2,000 years. They have been doing DNA studies to find Levitical priests. And many of the temple artifacts for temple worship have been recreated and are on display in Jerusalem.
It is still the FP that places the image of. Just like the Greek King placed an idol.
 

marks

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3. THE RESURRECTION CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM THE RAPTURE
All Christians believe that the saints will be resurrected. However, only a few understand that the Resurrection cannot be separated from the Rapture.


When a child of God dies, his or her body is interred in the grave. However, the soul and spirit go directly to Christ. But since Christ has promised to resurrect all the saints, it follows that He must bring their souls and spirits with Him at the Resurrection, so that they might receive their immortal, glorified bodies, and return to Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. Paul presents this to us very clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54:


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed [transformed at the Resurrection/Rapture], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [at the Resurrection], and we shall be changed [at the Rapture]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Not sure how this proves pre-trib . . . But yes, the resurrection of the dead, and transformation of the living, all who are in Christ, after which, there are no believers on the planet until God seals the 144,000.

One of the better proofs in my opinion. John heard the number of the servants of God, which receive the seal, and there are 144,000, all Jews.

Much love!
 

marks

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4. CHRIST COMES PERSONALLY WITH (AND FOR) THE SAINTS
As we can see here, the Resurrection/Rapture is a supernatural event which occurs in nanoseconds. All the saints receive glorious immortal and incorruptible bodies. However, what should be carefully noted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is that (a) Christ comes personally with the saints who have passed on, and for the saints who are alive at that time, (b) He comes to fulfill His promise in John 14:1-3 that He will come again and receive you unto Himself, and (c) that from this point on all the saints will be with Him eternally in the heavenly city New Jerusalem.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [have died in Christ], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


There are several other passages which develop the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture more fully, but these should be sufficient to prove that all the attacks against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are from Satan through mistaken, misguided, or malicious individuals.
Again, I don't really see how this points to pre-trib rapture. And again, I do myself think there will be a pre-trib rapture.

Much love!
 

David H.

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The False Prophet comes first. John the Baptist was the prophet that came prior to. The False Prophet comes first. No one in the NT announced an Antichrist. We have to put up with the FP prior to any False Messiah. Jesus points out an abomination that is not human.

This is not what revelation shows. Revelation shows the beast and the false prophet rule together, confusion comes because of the word "Before" in Revelation 13:12. The meaning of the word "Before" is in the presence of, or in the sight of, Not Preceded by. So The False prophet and antichrist operate in unison to one another. The Fact that the antichrist is the "first beast" means he is likely revealed first, and the False Prophet gives credence to the Antichrist. As is customary with Satan everything is done backwards.

Also I pointed you to 2 Thess. 2 and the man of sin there, who stands in the Holy Place and declares himself God, this is the abomination, is it not?
 

Timtofly

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This is not what revelation shows. Revelation shows the beast and the false prophet rule together, confusion comes because of the word "Before" in Revelation 13:12. The meaning of the word "Before" is in the presence of, or in the sight of, Not Preceded by. So The False prophet and antichrist operate in unison to one another. The Fact that the antichrist is the "first beast" means he is likely revealed first, and the False Prophet gives credence to the Antichrist. As is customary with Satan everything is done backwards.

Also I pointed you to 2 Thess. 2 and the man of sin there, who stands in the Holy Place and declares himself God, this is the abomination, is it not?
The FP is the first beast resembling the Greek king. Satan is the second beast out of the pit. The image brought to life is your abominable christ. Satan is the beast that looks like a man and has 2 horns like a Lamb, and his voice betrays him. It was Satan and the FP in Daniel 11. It will be Satan and the FP in the 42 months of sheol on earth. After Satan left the Greeks, he moved to Rome. He is still there behind the scenes pulling the strings.
 

Davy

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It is still the FP that places the image of. Just like the Greek King placed an idol.

It will be Satan himself that places the idol in a new temple in Jerusalem, in person, in 'our' earthly dimension. This is one of the mysteries many brethren miss from God's Word in Revelation because of their following men's doctrines instead controlled by the children of darkness.

The "beast" and "false prophet" of Rev.16 are just roles that the "dragon" (Satan) will play when he gets here. Reason is because per the end of Rev.19 we are told the "beast" and "false prophet" are cast into the "lake of fire", which is on the "day of the Lord" as shown by Christ's coming there. God's Word declares that 'only' the devil and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41). No flesh man has been judged to perish yet, not even Judas. Because that beast and false prophet are shown perishing at Christ's coming, that means they cannot... be flesh men.

Furthermore, the "beast" title is also applied to the false one of Revelation 13:11 ("another beast"), pointing to the one who speaks as a "dragon" (Satan). That can apply only to the idea of the beast king. In that case of Rev.13:11, it is applied to the one with two horns 'like' a lamb (Christ), but speaks as a dragon (Satan). Satan is coming to be king over the whole world for the tribulation. We are told he (as pseudochristos = 'a spurious Messiah' per Strong's no.5580) will work great signs and wonders that if it were possible would deceive even Christ's very elect (Matthew 24:23-26). This is why Lord Jesus warned us that if someone comes up to us and says, 'Lo, Christ is here, or there', to not believe it. Rev.13:4-8 shows the whole world, excepting Christ's elect, will believe it.

This is why we are shown in Rev.9 that Satan is a "king", and angel over the bottomless pit. It is why we are told in Revelation 12:9 that he is the "dragon". It is why we are told in Rev.11 that he will ascend out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, just prior to Christ's coming to destroy him. This is why we are shown his identity as the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit per Rev.17, and that the ten kings will give their power to him for the end.

It's one thing to simply read God's Word. It's another thing for The Holy Spirit to put all this together in the mind so as to absorb it. And then it's another thing altogether to believe it as written, which most are not prepared to do.
 

n2thelight

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Where is antichrist found in the Olivet Discourse?

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace.