The Trinity definition

justbyfaith said:

I contend

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Yep.
KJV John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Seems to me that what Jesus is saying here is that if His Father sent His Son to save, then He had a Son to send.

justbyfaith said:

Actually, the Jewish people held the word of God in such high esteem that if they made a mistake in the copying process, they would burn the copy.

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No, the Dead Sea scrolls aren't ashes, but either old scrolls that were retired or scrolls with more than 2 or 3 errors. There's more than one good book written about them, and the books say the exact opposite of what you've stated. Since burning them would leave no long term trace that they existed, where did you get this novel idea?

jaybird said:

The problem is you guys think fulfill means abolish which has Jesus saying " I did not come to abolish but I came to abolish" and you guys know Jesus does not make nonsense statements like that.
We call this religion as you go.

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I'm sorry but you seem to be a bit insane. You're arguing from fallacious assumptions about what the saints believe and I've never met a saint that believes that the law was abolished. Did you read that somewhere or is it just another evil imagining of a carnal mind?

Christophany said:

I'm a gentile,

next..........

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so if we are born non Jewish we can live however we want? murder, rape, its all good?

michaelvpardo said:

I'm sorry but you seem to be a bit insane. You're arguing from fallacious assumptions about what the saints believe and I've never met a saint that believes that the law was abolished. Did you read that somewhere or is it just another evil imagining of a carnal mind?

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i read that right here:

Actually Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law and the Apostle Paul wrote at least two epistles explaining why real Christians are not under the law.

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if one follows the example of Christ they are not a "real" Christian. wow . . .

Backlit said:

Yep.
KJV John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Seems to me that what Jesus is saying here is that if His Father sent His Son to save, then He had a Son to send.

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The answer is in Hebrews 10:5...God prepared a body for Himself and the Person who consisted of Spirit and flesh who was God the Father come in human flesh (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11) was the Son of God...and His name shall be called "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

Christophany said:

Modalism- Sabellianism- Oneness.

a false christ since the Son is not the Father.

so much for a revelation from Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

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Of course you are saying this in denial of what holy scripture teaches (Isaiah 9:6).

Also Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6.

michaelvpardo said:

No, the Dead Sea scrolls aren't ashes, but either old scrolls that were retired or scrolls with more than 2 or 3 errors. There's more than one good book written about them, and the books say the exact opposite of what you've stated. Since burning them would leave no long term trace that they existed, where did you get this novel idea?

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4 errors? How many errors were in them?

I would consider that even with the rule that they had about burning copies that contained error, the tediousness of the process may have led some to break that rule out of sheer fatigue.

jaybird said:

i read that right here:


if one follows the example of Christ they are not a "real" Christian. wow . . .

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You raise people from the dead, cleanse lepers, open the eyes of the blind, or the mouthes of mutes? Walk on water lately? Fast for 40 days in the wilderness? Turn water into wine or multiply bread and fish to feed multitudes? In what way do you "follow the example" of God incarnate? I don't see any hint of Jesus in your posts and what comes out of the mouth (or the keyboard) reveals what's in the heart. So if Jesus is in there somewhere, why can't I see Him? Does anyone see Him? Should we take a poll and ask this community if they see anything at all of Jesus in Jaybird?
It is possible for someone to receive the gospel and be born again without knowing that they are, out of simple ignorance, but such people display the fruit of the spirit and typically have at least one gift of the spirit. Do you have a spiritual gift? (Neither criticism or sarcasm count as spiritual gifts, nor does judgmentalism. ) Perhaps your gift is omniscience since the only hint of anything out of the ordinary is your deep insight into the beliefs of people you disagree with and know absolutely nothing about. Oops, that isn't actually a spiritual gift, but a quality of God. Are you God, because only God is actually allowed to judge the saints or even capable of it.
Please, enlighten me, how are you like Christ or following His example? What fruit is there in your life to give testimony to your relationship with the Lord? If it's some work, I hope it's something my atheist acquaintances don't do. They give to charities, help people out, do good works that are absolutely useless to someone with no faith. So where's your evidence, what's your proof? Could be that I'm wrong about you, you don't sound like a Christian from your posts, but I'm able to be sarcastic, acerbic, and can even make flawed arguments by reductio ad absurdum like your last and somewhat desperate post. It could be that you're just an infant in Christ and just need a whole lot of instruction (you'll be happy to know that such isn't my job or calling.)
So where's your fruit?

I know that I am answering your questions to another person; so consider the answers that I give to be my answers.

michaelvpardo said:

You raise people from the dead, cleanse lepers, open the eyes of the blind, or the mouthes of mutes? Walk on water lately?

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I know of people who have done so.

michaelvpardo said:

Please, enlighten me, how are you like Christ or following His example?

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The obvious answer to this is that we walk as Christ walked when we bear the fruit of His Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

See also 1 John 2:6.

michaelvpardo said:

What fruit is there in your life to give testimony to your relationship with the Lord?

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I can't answer for @jaybird; but for my own self, I believe that I can be confident that I bear the following:

Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

justbyfaith said:

I know that I am answering your questions to another person; so consider the answers that I give to be my answers.



I know of people who have done so.



The obvious answer to this is that we walk as Christ walked when we bear the fruit of His Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

See also 1 John 2:6.



I can't answer for @jaybird; but for my own self, I believe that I can be confident that I bear the following:

Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

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Well, that's good, happy to hear it, but it's jaybird that I'm questioning, because he's the one that's denying what scripture plainly says. Do you believe that scripture is the word of God and cannot be broken? Do you accept some of it and disregard the rest because it doesn't make sense to you? Does God teach you? I'm not offended by different understanding of the word, because our understanding is constantly changing with growth in the knowledge of God. The Holy Spirit doesn't hit us with a wand and load our brains with scripture and the understanding of it, but absolutely does teach us at our own rate and according to His timing, even omitting that which we are unable to bear until we can receive it.
If you know Him then the fruit isn't for your benefit nearly so much as for others "You will know them by their fruit." It's good to be confident in your relationship with God through Christ, but how is one confident without the witness within? The only way to have that witness is to receive Him and if that's the case, you have been born again and are more than you were when you didn't, and a new creation. I've met born again believers who didn't know they were because nobody taught them the doctrine and sometimes because they were taught false doctrine on the subject. I knew them by their fruit. The largest denomination on the planet came up with the unbiblical idea that there is no salvation without their church. The doctrine isn't found anywhere in scripture and is actually denying what the Apostle Paul said in the book of Roman's. The same denomination supports a vast priesthood almost entirely on "tithes" and offerings. Since it was the priesthood that came up with the aforementioned doctrine, and since scripture calls all believers priests, doesn't such doctrine seem the least bit self serving regarding those priests? For many centuries that same priesthood warned parishioners not to read the bible "because they might misunderstand or misinterpret it", but Jesus said "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." How exactly does one live by every such word without reading or at least hearing every word at least once? Doesn't that seem the least bit odd to you? Priests telling you to disobey Jesus Christ? I have no desire to go about "Catholic bashing" as I was raised in a Catholic household and I know Catholic Saints (though they're clueless to the fact that they are saints), but you just can't let people professing Christ do Satan's work and Satan's work is mostly denying the truth of God's word starting with the very first deception in the garden of Eden to this day. Satan always makes you question God's word, His faithfulness, His character and His love. These are things to avoid.

michaelvpardo said:

It's good to be confident in your relationship with God through Christ, but how is one confident without the witness within?

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Of course that is what is needed (Romans 8:16)...and of course I have this inner testimony.

justbyfaith said:

Of course that is what is needed (Romans 8:16)...and of course I have this inner testimony.

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Good, wonderful, but what exactly is your point? You're not trolling here as Jaybird, are you? Have an issue with the doctrine of the second birth? I don't recall casting aspersions on your testimony, but if I did, then I apologize for it and ask your forgiveness. That happens a great deal on ecumenical websites, but I don't know of any restricted to born again believers only, or I'd be ministering there rather than WASTING MY TIME TEACHING PEOPLE WHAT THEY SHOULD ALREADY KNOW. It's very draining and not particularly pleasant for an old man.

justbyfaith said:

The answer is in Hebrews 10:5...God prepared a body for Himself

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But that isn't what Hebrews 10:5 says is it. It doesn't say, "I am tired of burnt offerings therefore I prepared a body for myself." Who's speaking, and Who is He speaking to? Who prepared the body, and Who did He prepare that body for? And you didn't speak to my statement at all, but just went off on a tangent of your own devising. The scripture literally says, God sent His Son. The scripture also says elsewhere that God gave His Son.
Phil.2 speaks of the Son emptying Himself, thinking that being equal to the Father was something He needed to cleave to, even though, as Hebrews says He was the image of the invisible Father, laying aside all His divine prerogatives, and becoming a servant...a channel for the Father to do His works...this is our example. As the Spirit of the Father dwelt in the Son, so the Spirit of Christ may dwell in us. We also may become channels...vessels...that God may work in and through us to do according to His will and purpose, so that when people observe us and our works, they don't see us, but Christ. Like they didn't see Christ, but the Father.
"I of my own self can do nothing, but the Father who dwells in Me doeth the works."
Abide in Me and I in you. Without Me ye can do nothing"
"I am the true vine, and My Father the Husbandman."
Read John 17. Two separate individual beings.

Christophany said:

where do you come up with such nonsense ?

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From "Christian" antinomianism. It's a thing.

michaelvpardo said:

Good, wonderful, but what exactly is your point? You're not trolling here as Jaybird, are you? Have an issue with the doctrine of the second birth? I don't recall casting aspersions on your testimony, but if I did, then I apologize for it and ask your forgiveness. That happens a great deal on ecumenical websites, but I don't know of any restricted to born again believers only, or I'd be ministering there rather than WASTING MY TIME TEACHING PEOPLE WHAT THEY SHOULD ALREADY KNOW. It's very draining and not particularly pleasant for an old man.

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No, you have not disparaged my testimony; but others here have attacked me in recent days.

Backlit said:

But that isn't what Hebrews 10:5 says is it. It doesn't say, "I am tired of burnt offerings therefore I prepared a body for myself." Who's speaking, and Who is He speaking to? Who prepared the body, and Who did He prepare that body for? And you didn't speak to my statement at all, but just went off on a tangent of your own devising. The scripture literally says, God sent His Son. The scripture also says elsewhere that God gave His Son.
Phil.2 speaks of the Son emptying Himself, thinking that being equal to the Father was something He needed to cleave to, even though, as Hebrews says He was the image of the invisible Father, laying aside all His divine prerogatives, and becoming a servant...a channel for the Father to do His works...this is our example. As the Spirit of the Father dwelt in the Son, so the Spirit of Christ may dwell in us. We also may become channels...vessels...that God may work in and through us to do according to His will and purpose, so that when people observe us and our works, they don't see us, but Christ. Like they didn't see Christ, but the Father.
"I of my own self can do nothing, but the Father who dwells in Me doeth the works."
Abide in Me and I in you. Without Me ye can do nothing"
"I am the true vine, and My Father the Husbandman."
Read John 17. Two separate individual beings.

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Distinct, not separate.

And I do not deny that they are distinct to the point of being distinct from each other as members of the Godhead. So that the Father is not the Son (while the Son is the Father, Isaiah 9:6).

What does it mean that God sent His Son to die but that He sent His Son to die? Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35)...born to die.

The fact that God sent Him to die in no way precludes that He was begotten in eternity through the creation of some kind of eternal mirror. Again, Jesus was begotten in the incarnation according to holy scripture (Luke 1:35). From that begetting He was sent to die for the sins of the world.

And I also do not deny that Jesus exists throughout eternity; for Psalms 90:2 applies to the Son as well as the Father. He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); and time is a created thing. Therefore the Son has ascended to inhabit eternity with the Father who sent Him (Isaiah 57:15). And they are also the same Spirit, if Jesus be God (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4).

Christophany said:

I don't personally in real life happen to know anyone who believes that, do you ?

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I meet such people almost everytimea discussion arises regarding the observance of Sunday as a Christian Sabbath. It is their go to excuse for not keeping the fourth Commandment. We are no longer under the law... True... But they quote that to mean we no longer need to obey it.

Backlit said:

I meet such people almost everytimea discussion arises regarding the observance of Sunday as a Christian Sabbath. It is their go to excuse for not keeping the fourth Commandment. We are no longer under the law... True... But they quote that to mean we no longer need to obey it.

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We don't any longer need to obey it...there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...

However, if we are in Christ and recipients of the New Covenant, the law is written on our hearts and in our minds.

We don't obey out of fear of condemnation; but out of the fact that there is a Spirit within us...and because we are spiritually-minded, we are subject in our minds to the law of God; and cannot be otherwise (inverse of Romans 8:7).

We are motivated by the Holy Spirit to walk in the love of Jesus Christ; and this is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

If we fail to obey the law perfectly, there is still redemption for us; for we are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) in order that we might not walk any longer in the oldness of the letter; but in the newness of the spirit.

To be certain, Jesus broke the sabbath (John 5:18)...or at least He claimed to (John 5:16-17); since He claimed that His Father was working hitherto, and He was working; and that day was the sabbath.

I think that Jesus was not lying?

Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Jhn 5:16, And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Now, He did not break the spirit of the sabbath day law; but He did violate the letter.

Jesus was come as High Priest after the order of Melchizedec; and as such He was not there after the law of a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life.

michaelvpardo said:

You raise people from the dead, cleanse lepers, open the eyes of the blind, or the mouthes of mutes? Walk on water lately? Fast for 40 days in the wilderness? Turn water into wine or multiply bread and fish to feed multitudes? In what way do you "follow the example" of God incarnate? I don't see any hint of Jesus in your posts and what comes out of the mouth (or the keyboard) reveals what's in the heart. So if Jesus is in there somewhere, why can't I see Him? Does anyone see Him? Should we take a poll and ask this community if they see anything at all of Jesus in Jaybird?
It is possible for someone to receive the gospel and be born again without knowing that they are, out of simple ignorance, but such people display the fruit of the spirit and typically have at least one gift of the spirit. Do you have a spiritual gift? (Neither criticism or sarcasm count as spiritual gifts, nor does judgmentalism. ) Perhaps your gift is omniscience since the only hint of anything out of the ordinary is your deep insight into the beliefs of people you disagree with and know absolutely nothing about. Oops, that isn't actually a spiritual gift, but a quality of God. Are you God, because only God is actually allowed to judge the saints or even capable of it.
Please, enlighten me, how are you like Christ or following His example? What fruit is there in your life to give testimony to your relationship with the Lord? If it's some work, I hope it's something my atheist acquaintances don't do. They give to charities, help people out, do good works that are absolutely useless to someone with no faith. So where's your evidence, what's your proof? Could be that I'm wrong about you, you don't sound like a Christian from your posts, but I'm able to be sarcastic, acerbic, and can even make flawed arguments by reductio ad absurdum like your last and somewhat desperate post. It could be that you're just an infant in Christ and just need a whole lot of instruction (you'll be happy to know that such isn't my job or calling.)
So where's your fruit?

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Peter walked on water. but according to you thats the wrong example. all things are possible with the faith that Jesus taught, but when you talk the talk and dont walk the walk its futile