CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I'm saying. Many of those who ran out the door still believe OSAS, so why die now?
Those who deny Eternal Security
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That's exactly what I'm saying. Many of those who ran out the door still believe OSAS, so why die now?
Paul Christensen
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There is no proof that they actually did cast out demons. They just said they did ("Didn't we cast out demons in your name?). Roman Catholic doctrine involves exorcism. There are many who have a form of godliness who purport to cast out demons, so just because people say they cast out demons doesn't mean that they actually do, when they utter their incantations, hold up crucifixes and Bibles and sprinkle their holy water. But they think they do, and that is the issue here.
It all has not to do with what we do for the Lord, but who we are in Christ.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Our authority.
But that doesn't mean our fruit/actions won't show the truth.
But what do you think about the Russians who ran? Are they still saved just because they didn't stay for the Lord? They could have just set up shop/church somewhere else.
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Nancy
Well-Known Member
Maybe they did, as I would too if any soldiers were to point a gun at me unless....it is to show my allegiance with Christ, then I would hope for the courage and strength to not compromise my faith.
I could see if the Russian soldiers crashed a church and told all those parishioners that, if they don't want to die then, deny Christ or leave. That would be a story that would reveal who has the faith to stand up for Him, it will come to that one day anyhow.
Paul Christensen
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We have no way of knowing who is saved and who isn't, because we cannot see inside people's hearts. Who know whether you or I would be one of those who ran out of the church? Are we better than Peter, who denied the Lord when faced with personal danger...or the other disciples who ran away when Jesus was arrested? In England, during Bloody Mary's reign, Cranwell faced being burned at the stake unless he recanted his Protestant faith. Cranwell recanted and saved his life. But later on, he repudiated his recant and was burned at the stake. The account says that he put the hand with which he signed the recantation so it would be burned up first in his disgust that he allowed that hand to be the instrument of his betrayal of the Lord to save his own life.
I guess during Bloody Mary's reign, there were many "secret" Protestant disciples of Christ. We cannot judge whether they were genuinely born again or not, because what would we do if our government turned Islamic and it was a capital offence to declare ourselves Christian?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
@Paul Christensen Don't talk to me about blood pressure, Sir!
I was on a high dose of blood-pressure meds. and my new cardiologist told me to cut mine in half, because I was constantly dizzy. (Boy, did I just set myself up?
)!@CharismaticLady It's a catch-22, right? more is less, or less is more?I was on a high dose of blood-pressure meds. and my new cardiologist told me to cut mine in half, because I was constantly dizzy. (Boy, did I just set myself up?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
@CharismaticLady It's a catch-22, right? more is less, or less is more?
So true! Here I thought the dizziness was from too little meds and needed more! That's what I get for thinking!
@CharismaticLady Advice can sometimes be like a gramophone turntable: the tune differs but goes round and round.....
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
This verse is misunderstood - often.
If you examine the context, you find out that Jesus is speaking to Jews, those who lived under the Law, who never came to Him. He did not have a relationship with Him ( "I never knew you"), and therefore did not love, act charitable to His own (Christians). They claimed to have prophesied on His name too.
So these are not born again Christians who then lost their salvation because they did not love their brothers and sisters.
I've been in the presence of six Rabbis for about am hour. I picked them up at the airport and transported them to the Fairfax district. That was a seriously cold, unfriendly group of gents. Wow, I had to speak to them and they grudgingly with their super spiritual arrogance spoke down to me, the lowly gentile van driver. No smiles, no warmth ... men of God. It was sad, these guys didn't know the joy of the Lord - they couldn't - they did not know Jesus. It will be these kind of "holy men" who will utter, "Lord, Lord, bla, bla, bla ..."
I transported another Rabbi by himself at another time who had the same cold, serious disposition. I started a conversation again and he talked with me. I couldn't help but asking why he seemed so sad, as if carrying heavy load: "Why don't you have the joy of the Lord?" He seemed squermish and uncomfortable as he searched for words. He said, "Women are sooo stupid! I'VE tried for my entire life to make my wife happy ... done everything for her and yota, yota yota ..." He just went on blaming his wife for his misery. He was about 75 years old. Wow.
So that was about 30 year ago. I would imagine that this Rabbi has pasted away and then met his Maker. What account did he give, what did he say and what did the Lord say to him?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The verse is a single verse. You do not want to form a religious belief around one verse. Nor even a broad understanding. That was not the point of my post. Taking the New Testament as a whole there is a concern regarding sin and those that are saved. The point being that OSAS is not a functional concept in the New Testament. The verse I quoted is a statement but He was not talking to Christians and in fact most of what Christ says in the Gospels is in the context of Christ (a Jew) talking to Jews about Judaism...not Christianity. The Jews are not asking Him questions about Christianity. We can glean some wisdom from what He says but most of the conversations are not about Christianity. For one the term had not been coined yet. When Christ is talking, lets say the parable of the Sheep and Goats, He is not explaining the way to salvation. He is talking about how the Jews treat the Jews.
As far as the Jews go many have an attitude. I grew up with them so I do not run into that much. They have some really different views as per the Christian perspective. They have a prayer that more or less says, Thank you God for not making me a woman. And they are notorious as a culture for not taking care of their elderly. That is why there are charities out there to help the Jewish elderly.
It is not only speaking to Jews...it is speaking to anyone who says, Lord, Lord, to Jesus and thinks that they are saved by their works but who work iniquity on the side.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Salutations there....
Consider this. Peter and the other Apostles were not perfect, they made a lot mistakes and they were not good students. lol But in the conversation regarding how you can lose your salvation the topic gets outside the box because the scriptures truthfully do not explain it well. There is obviously a concern regarding Christians going to hell that runs through the NT. The scriptures as a whole are not about how sin affects non-Christians.
So Christians are going to sin and Christians can get forgiveness...the real kind...like Christ does not remember forgiven sins. And you are right we do not have a faith meter to see if some one believed enough. But that is irrelevant, salvation is not through our power. Once you are saved you are in the family of God. That part is for sure and certain. Now I quoted a verse from the OT "If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” It is a good illustration of our relationship with sin. Sin can over come you and master you.
What kind of sin is that? For most of us our relationship with Christ is like a journey and along the way if we walk with Christ and do the work of the Father, just like any son, who works with his father, that relationship becomes very close. And when we stumble Christ is not there to kick us while we are down. He is going to pick us up and dust us off and tell us to march of smart...straighten up a fly right, as the saying goes.
Even if we go a little hog wild and do things we are not suppose to do, when we return He is like the Father with the prodigal son, He rejoices. But if we run off and make a life of it, that is were we get into trouble. It is the habitual sins that we do that does the greatest harm. Technically you have not lost your salvation, you are a son, standing before Christ on Judgement Day. And if sin has over come you and filled you, justice has to be done.
We all sin and as sons and daughters of God we are eligible for forgiveness. But you do not want to become sin. Don't you think it breaks His heart to pronounce judgement? The topic of sin is not that simple and I have a write up on it in Grailhunter's Corner. You want to understand what real sin is, because with all the man-made sins, life becomes a minefield of sins and people can get the feeling it is impossible not to sin. If you have a minefield full of real sins and fake sins, you are likely to step on a real sin trying to avoid a fake sin. A good example of that is judging people on fake sins, they are innocent and you are looking at a double edge sword and if you offend them and turn them away from Christianity, you might find yourself being fitted for a millstone.
No. Merely accusation, without evidential support.
Again, you place a strawman on the field, since we teach scriptural assurance (even "earnest"), rather than presumptuous assurance. We are not "IN-secur[e]" in the least. Those who are truly "IN-secur[e]" are the OSASer's, who must redefine what it means to "believeth", so that they do not have to worry about falling away from Christ, and do not burden themselves with taking heed to themselves.
Back to our position. Those in Christ are indeed secure. Yet that security is conditional based upon an individuals "believeth". Remain in Christ by that "believeth", and Heaven is assured. Leave Christ by no longer "believeth", and Heaven is lost, for turning away from the real sacrifice, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, and to choose to go back out into sin is to be lost. For Jesus Christ is Eternal Life, and never is eternal life inherent with us, as texts already cited.
Not at all. It is your understanding of Hebrews 10:10,14,29 that is in question, not the scripture, nor its perfectly defined statements, nor our position on any of those texts.
Hebrews 10:9-10 is in parallel to Hebrews 10:1-2, in contrast of type to anti-type:
Type:
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Anti-type:
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
This is demonstrated by the very next verses:
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Did you see the same words used in Hebrews 10:1,10,14 - "perfect", "perfected", "sanctified", "sacrifices", even in similar language in Hebrews 10:2,11 - "purged", "take away sins"?
It continues, in Hebrews 10:18, in summation, by the Holy Ghost:
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Remission is forgiveness, and is having ones sins "purged", or "taken away from" them by the singular "Once" (Hebrews 10:2,10) Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Yet, forgiveness is only the first half of the plan. Blotting out is the second half. Sins which are forgiven are not gone in entirety, they are only removed from the sinner, and placed under the blood of Jesus, until such time as they are blotted out, as the Sanctuary service required, in Leviticus 16 & 23, &c. Who took the sin of the world upon Himself? Jesus Christ. If Jesus took them, as scripture states, then He has them. This is the entire point of Hebrews 9:28,
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Notice when "salvation" "appears". Read the word "unto" carefully. Jesus is even now dealing with the covered sins, as our great High priest (Hebrews 10:21) in the Most Holy Place, see Daniel & Revelation. Thus it is written:
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Notice the "faith" that needs to be present. Without "faith" it is impossible to please God. There are those that had "faith" at one time, and draw not "near", but "away from" Christ Jesus of their own volition, by submitting to temptation.
This is why Paul (Hebrews) warns strictly that it is entirely possible (not necessary -- the false strawman of OSASer's against us):
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
It is we that must "hold fast" "the profession of our faith" "without wavering", because by very definition, it is then possible to not "hold fast", and to not have the "profession of our faith" any longer, and to actually be "wavering" and so fall away. It is entirely possible to "forsake the assembling of ourselves together", for Paul even includes them, by saying, "as the manner of some is", and that among the believers, the "profess[ors] of our faith". Paul then states with clarity, that "if we" (the Christian) sin willfully (which is contrary to God's will, Hebrews 10:9-10), that is to choose to leave Christ Jesus behind, and no longer believe in the salvation offered in Him and the sanctification in Him, then there "remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" and we are naked, and without clothing, having abandoned the only clothing provided by God, by removing them from ourselves. Afterward, there is only "a certain looking for of judgment and fiery indignation" for those who once believed, but forsook the right way, and shall join with those "adversaries" who never believed. These people, if they choose to so forsake Christ Jesus, after having known Him, and received the knowledge (intimate knowing) of the Truth (Jesus Christ; John 14:6), then they loved to believe in a lie instead, and their faith when from Jesus to something else. Believeth is always the condition. God's promises are always faithful, but we must always "believeth" in that. It is our part to believe:
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Read the verses carefully. The Sanctified are only found in Christ Jesus. So long as a person believeth in Christ Jesus, they are sanctified (purged from their old sins, forgiven of their old sins), but if they leave off from Christ, their old sins are no longer forgiven (Matthew 18, &c), their old sins are no longer covered by the blood of the true Sacrifice, and they have no more sacrifice for their sins, and thus they can only look forward to dying with the adversaries, and thus it is worse for them, to have at one time known the way the truth and the life, and been in Him, and to have forsaken Him.
Thus, those accepting Christ Jesus are indeed "sanctified", purged from their old sins. Yet, those who forsake Him, have their sins placed back upon themselves (Matthew 18, &c). Thus cannot ever be saved after that.
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No. There is no contradiction at all. The only contradiction is seen when one takes an OSAS mindset. The passages clearly spell out what the sancitified part is. it is to be "purged" of their old sins, which we see spoken of all the way back in Hebrews 1:3, 10:2 of the anti-type,
Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb_10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb_10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
We see the type in Hebrews 9:22,
Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
This is dealing with forgiveness, not blotting out of sins. The two are not the same thing as already demonstrated to you on numerous occasions, and if need be, be so done again. Forgiveness can be revoked (Matthew 18; &c).
The perfected is in Christ Jesus:
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Yes, it was a Once for all Sacrifice. This is why it is important, and even necessary to believeth in it, and so not forsake that belief. Thus Paul's warning in several places in Hebrews to not leave off from that belief, and to be on guard carefully, lest we be tempted away into unbelief again, and so be lost forever.
You are self deceived. The entire context from Hebrews 1 itself, unto the passages in discussion are about the believers (those who believed and placed the blood of the lamb on the doorposts), not the non-believers (those who stayed in Egypt, never placing the blood of the lamb on the door posts).
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. (citing Isaiah 8)
Did you see the word "perfect" and who it is that is "perfect"? We are never "perfect" outside of Christ Jesus. We are never "perfect" without the "believeth" in Him.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Did you see the word "obey"? It is directly linked to "believeth", "faith". Now, notice the very next lines:
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Did you see the words "they who are sanctified are all of one", meaning the same body (which body is Christ Jesus). Now connect Hebrews 2:11 to Hebrews 10:1,9-10,14,29, &c.
You just grievously erred (all because you desire to uphold your Idol of OSAS, rather than Christ Jesus' doctrine) in saying that in Hebrews 10:29 is not dealing with those who are saved in Christ Jesus, the believers. You denied the Son, to keep yourself intact. You are in a very dangerous position. Repent, or you cannot be saved (1 John 2:23).
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Did you see the words "our profession" in Hebrews 3:1, now connect it to Hebrews 10:23. Hebrews is built upon the foundation of Chapter 1 (Christ Jesus), and all things afterward are built up from it (Him).
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Did you notice the condition, the "if we hold fast" and "unto" in Hebrews 3:6? Did you compare it to Hebrews 10:23, 4:14?
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
It is entirely possible to not hold fast. Hebrews 3-4 even gives the parallel of Type and Anti-type, for many were saved out of Egypt, but not all continued in believeth, and many drew back unto perdition. They no longer believed and were lost between being saved out of Egypt and entering the Promised Land, in the wilderness. God, through Moses, even warned them about drawing back by temptation.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
God's salvation is perfect. Yet it is entirely possible to depart from the living God, and so be lost, even after having known and partaken of the Heavenly.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Yet, it is the believeth part (our part) that is weakness. That is not saying salvation is ever earned. Salvation is the free gift of God. God even provides the faith, but what do we do with both? God never takes away our choice.
Notice, it is entirely possible to be hardened:
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
They had the same Gospel:
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
God can be merciful on those going astray from Him:
Heb 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
Yet, He only pleads for so long. After the time set by God, He leaves them to their Idols:
Hos_4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
We are going on "unto perfection" through that "believeth",
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Notice the warning directly following this! See the condition of "if" (possibility) throughout the whole thing!
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
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Yet, Paul had a hope for those to whom he was addressing:
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Which is parallel to Hebrews 10:39
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Paul is clear. There are those who do "draw back unto perdition". They leave off of Christ Jesus and His salvation, His perfection, they throw away being sanctified, being purged from their old sins and go back into them, even though they had been partakers with the others for awhile. OSASer's must deny the very words to keep their own idol!
Paul was hopeful:
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
This is the scriptural assurance:
Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
But hope is not finality. Hope is looking forward by faith to that which is promised - in Christ Jesus. It only comes through faith. If I personally lose faith in the promises of God, in Christ Jesus, then I have nothing to keep me from being lost, even though I at one time believeth.
It is Christ Jesus which obtained eternal redemption:
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
And thus, we can only have it being found in Him by faith. Thus to draw back from Him, leaving Him, eternal redemption is lost to those who once believed, even as it is for those who never believed. What the OSASer must do is take of the two groups, and make it one group.
The very context of Hebrews 10 is the believers. Which is why theirs is an increase of punishment for those who forsake Christ. Their torment in that day will be all the greater, for they had at one time known Him, been in Him, and yet walked away through unbelief.
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
They had accepted the Spirit of grace, and the Son of God, and the blood of the covenant (New), and was sanctified (in Christ Jesus), had their old sins purged, being forgiven, but having turned away through unbelief, they lose all of it.
Your idolatry to preserve OSAS is a disgrace to the grace of Christ Jesus. It is a mockery to all that is holy, righteous and true. Your wresting of scripture will destroy you even as Peter warned you about Paul, but you are not listening, and I see no evidence that you will ever listen. Your choices are taking you to a place you cannot return from. Repent while you can.
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The words accepted the Spirit of grace, and the Son of God, and the blood of the covenant (New), and was sanctified (in Christ Jesus), had their old sins purged, being forgiven all show what the context is speaking of, even from Hebrews 1, unto Hebrews 10 and the passages in discussion. To merely say that sometimes the word "sanctified" doesn't deal with salvation is a red-herring, a non-sequitur.
I already know what it means, apart from the liberal James Strong. I get definitions from the Bible (KJB), God, not James Strong, but even so, the definition is not in question. The context of its use is.
1 Corinthians 7:14, has nothing to do with Hebrews, let alone Hebrews 10, and the texts under discussion, and you knew that before you ever posted this error. 1 Corinthians 7, deals with a faithful (believer) person, married to a non-believer, and who has a child. The child is "sanctified" by the believing parent, how? Through the believing parent teaching their child the right way, and countering the influence of the unbeliever. In this way a child of a believing and unbelieving parent might be saved, and might be purified from sins otherwise committed if both parents were unbelievers. That you attempted to appropriate this text, in a completely separate context from Hebrews 10, shows how desperate the OSASer really is to not let their idol fall to the ground.
You have given a gross distortion to Hebrews 10.
In general, yes. That is not in question. What is in question, is your distasteful misuse and abuse of 1 Corinthians 7:14 and Hebrews 10. I even showed what sanctified means in the context in both. Whereas you tried to amalgamate the two texts into a blasphemous morphism.
I never said sanctified meant saved. I said the context was speaking about those which were in Christ Jesus, being sanctified in Him. What you have done here is another false comparison, a red-herring, another non-sequitur, and even a straw man of my actual position.
Which is exactly what I said you would do previously.
The very verse you cite, shows the two groups:
[1] Heb 10:39 them that believe to the saving of the soul.
[2] Heb 10:39 them who draw back unto perdition;
[2] Heb 10:39 them who draw back unto perdition;
A person cannot be "drawn back unto" "perdition" unless they first left "perdition" and were drawn unto Christ Jesus through believeth. That "unto", "to" works both ways. It is the distance inbetween the beginning and the ending of faith.
Again, Hebrews 10 is not dealing with those who never believed, except when it refers to the "adversaries" (Hebrews 10:27), of which group is already lost never having left "perdition".
Paul is correct. The believer who continues in their belief will not draw back unto perdition, but the person who once believed and does not continue in their belief will do so. Two groups.
The OSASer is refuted by the very texts they cited.
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