A Stone Of Stumbling

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whirlwind

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Isaiah 8:13-18 Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.


The Lord dwells in His elect so His elect are the spiritual...mount Zion. They are His signs and wonders. His elect are those that "sanctify the Lord Himself," and He is our "sanctuary." A sanctuary in which we dwell.....


1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.​


But, to those that do not "keepeth His commandments" He shall be a "stone of stumbling" to both houses...the house of Israel (Christians) and the house of Judah (Jews). Why? How? They don't have the truth...the truth of the Messiah or who the Messiah is. In the end of days the fake comes first pretending to be Christ and many believers will fall into apostasy...Christians and Jews.


The other group mentioned is...."the inhabitants of Jerusalem." To them He shall be a "gin and snare." (snare - in which wild beasts are caught.) These "inhabitants" are not of either houses of Israel (Christians or Jews) but rather are "residents of Jerusalem." Are they the "wild beasts" now living in, residents of, Jerusalem?


There we see today's literal Jerusalem and the "wild beasts" living therein but there is a deeper meaning. Spiritually Jerusalem is symbolic of God's holy city, His children...believers. As His "very elect" or "saints" are mount Zion, the city of Jerusalem is the church. As there are now folks residing there (wild beasts) there are also spiritual wild beasts (false teachers, preachers...pretending to be Christian) residing in God's city. They shall be "broken" (shattered, crushed.)"



Those that are misled "shall stumble and fall and be snared and taken." All from deception. They shall be, are being, taken in, conned, deceived by the antichrist....


Matthew 24:40-42 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.​


We must know that our Savior comes after the working of the fake (and he/they are hard at work now)...we must wait (not fall into apostasy) and continue to do His work in the field, (the world).



11 Thessalonians 2:6-8 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:​

The "spirit of His mouth," is the Holy Spirit working, teaching, guiding His witnesses so they speak His Words. His Words are the fire in their mouth that consumes the wicked.


Revelation 11:3-5 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.​

There are two rocks....Christ, our Rock and Satan the fake rock. Jesus is a Rock to stumble on when the misled believe they follow Him but...it is instead the fake.
 

fivesense

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Thanks whirlwind for supplying us more of your intrigue and mystery. The riddles you solve before our very eyes are never ending. I enjoy your posts.
fivesense
 

whirlwind

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Thanks whirlwind for supplying us more of your intrigue and mystery. The riddles you solve before our very eyes are never ending. I enjoy your posts.
fivesense



You have no idea how you brightened my day. :D

Thank you so much!
 

skyangel

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But, to those that do not "keepeth His commandments" He shall be a "stone of stumbling" to both houses...the house of Israel (Christians) and the house of Judah (Jews). Why? How? They don't have the truth...the truth of the Messiah or who the Messiah is. In the end of days the fake comes first pretending to be Christ and many believers will fall into apostasy...Christians and Jews.


The other group mentioned is...."the inhabitants of Jerusalem." To them He shall be a "gin and snare." (snare - in which wild beasts are caught.) These "inhabitants" are not of either houses of Israel (Christians or Jews) but rather are "residents of Jerusalem." Are they the "wild beasts" now living in, residents of, Jerusalem?


There we see today's literal Jerusalem and the "wild beasts" living therein but there is a deeper meaning. Spiritually Jerusalem is symbolic of God's holy city, His children...believers. As His "very elect" or "saints" are mount Zion, the city of Jerusalem is the church. As there are now folks residing there (wild beasts) there are also spiritual wild beasts (false teachers, preachers...pretending to be Christian) residing in God's city. They shall be "broken" (shattered, crushed.)"

Why do you relate and equate the house of Israel to Christians and the house of house of Judah to Jews when the Israelites or "house of Israel" were also Jews?
Do you not know that the house of Judah is a part of the house of Israel? Judah was the fourth son of Jacob who was renamed Israel. They are all Jews. No Christians existed at the time of the OT.

whirlwind said:
There are two rocks....Christ, our Rock and Satan the fake rock. Jesus is a Rock to stumble on when the misled believe they follow Him but...it is instead the fake.

Are you saying that Satan is the fake Jesus which is being preached in Christianity today? Are you saying that Christianity is preaching a fake rock, false Christ and leading many people astray?
 

Paul

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Why do you relate and equate the house of Israel to Christians and the house of house of Judah to Jews when the Israelites or "house of Israel" were also Jews?
Do you not know that the house of Judah is a part of the house of Israel? Judah was the fourth son of Jacob who was renamed Israel. They are all Jews. No Christians existed at the time of the OT.



Are you saying that Satan is the fake Jesus which is being preached in Christianity today? Are you saying that Christianity is preaching a fake rock, false Christ and leading many people astray?


Today most Christian nation are made up of the house of Israel they just don't know who they are. The largest portion of Judah has also lost their identity.

Remeber, the house of Judah and the house of Israel were separated after Solomon.
 

whirlwind

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Why do you relate and equate the house of Israel to Christians and the house of house of Judah to Jews when the Israelites or "house of Israel" were also Jews?
Do you not know that the house of Judah is a part of the house of Israel? Judah was the fourth son of Jacob who was renamed Israel. They are all Jews. No Christians existed at the time of the OT.


Pardon my late reply....I missed this post.

The house of Judah isn't part of the house of Israel. All twelve tribes are Israel...only the house of Judah are Jews. That house is Judah and Benjamin, the southern tribes that remained in Jerusalem after the split. The others are the house of Israel...referred to as the "lost sheep of the house of Israel." They are those Christ was sent to....He found us. We carry His name today.

All are Israel but not of Israel are Jews.


Are you saying that Satan is the fake Jesus which is being preached in Christianity today? Are you saying that Christianity is preaching a fake rock, false Christ and leading many people astray?


They preach Jesus but don't preach about Satan's deception. They don't teach that Satan and his many workers pretend to be Christian and mislead. They teach rapture, man's doctrine, man's ideas. They preach salvation and baptism over and over and don't warn about the tribulation....one of great deception.
 

skyangel

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Pardon my late reply....I missed this post.

The house of Judah isn't part of the house of Isreal. All twelve tribes are Israel...only the house of Judah are Jews. That house is Judah and Benjamin, the southern tribes that remained in Jerusalem after the split. The others are the house of Israel...referred to as the "lost sheep of the house of Israel." They are those Christ was sent to....He found us. We carry His name today.

All are Israel but not of Israel are Jews.

Are you basically saying all are Christians but not all Christians are Christs followers? Are you saying Jesus was sent to the lost Christians? What about the rest of the world and non christian religions?



whirlwind said:
They preach Jesus but don't preach about Satan's deception. They don't teach that Satan and his many workers pretend to be Christian and mislead. They teach rapture, man's doctrine, man's ideas. They preach salvation and baptism over and over and don't warn about the tribulation....one of great deception.

The false prophets and false teachers preach another Jesus.( 2 Cor 11:4 ) .... a different one to the one the bible talks about. They preach a false Jesus Christ who once was on earth in the flesh and is not currently on earth in the flesh today but will come back to earth in the flesh one day according to their false futuristic doctrines.

They do not preach the Jesus who never left the earth and who is still here on earth in the flesh today. He IS come ( present tense ) in the flesh.

1 John 4:2-3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 

whirlwind

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Are you basically saying all are Christians but not all Christians are Christs followers? Are you saying Jesus was sent to the lost Christians? What about the rest of the world and non christian religions?


No I didn't say that. Please read it again.




The false prophets and false teachers preach another Jesus.( 2 Cor 11:4 ) .... a different one to the one the bible talks about. They preach a false Jesus Christ who once was on earth in the flesh and is not currently on earth in the flesh today but will come back to earth in the flesh one day according to their false futuristic doctrines.


You are mistaken.

11 Corinthains 11:2-4 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.​

The context is about staying true to the one Christ. The false teachers preach the one that pretends to be Christ....the anti-christ (instead of christ). When they "preacheth another Jesus" it is speaking of the fake...not some convoluted idea wrapped up in "false doctrines" of preterism.


They do not preach the Jesus who never left the earth and who is still here on earth in the flesh today. He IS come ( present tense ) in the flesh.

1 John 4:2-3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Again, we disagree on the meaning of the verse. Those that teach Jesus is "come in the flesh" teach He comes in our flesh. He dwells in us.
 

skyangel

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No I didn't say that. Please read it again.

I am referring to your OP where you said
"But, to those that do not "keepeth His commandments" He shall be a "stone of stumbling" to both houses...the house of Israel (Christians) and the house of Judah (Jews). Why? How? They don't have the truth...the truth of the Messiah or who the Messiah is. In the end of days the fake comes first pretending to be Christ and many believers will fall into apostasy...Christians and Jews. "

You are obviously comparing the house of Israel to Christians and the house of Judah to Jews. You are saying that Jesus is an offence to both Christians and Jews because they don't have the Truth. You are saying they, both houses, referring to Christians and Jews do not keep his commandments in the first place and are offended by Truth which is Jesus himself.
Then you say in the end the fake will come and believers will fall into apostasy. How can those who don't have the truth in the first place fall into apostasy away from the Truth when they don't have the truth in the first place?
If you fall into apostasy and turn away from a lack of truth you end up in the Truth.
I am asking you what about the rest of the religions in the world who are not Christian or Jews? What about Muslems for example, Where do they fit in the big picture of scripture in your opinion ? Do you consider them the house of Israel or the house of Judah or what?

Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are followers of Christ at all. Many are following a false Christ and are unaware of it.
 

skyangel

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11 Corinthains 11:2-4 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.​
The context is about staying true to the one Christ. The false teachers preach the one that pretends to be Christ....the anti-christ (instead of christ). When they "preacheth another Jesus" it is speaking of the fake...not some convoluted idea wrapped up in "false doctrines" of preterism.

Again, we disagree on the meaning of the verse. Those that teach Jesus is "come in the flesh" teach He comes in our flesh. He dwells in us.

I agree with you that the context is about staying true to the REAL Christ.. I agree that false teachers preach a false Christ, they preach the fake Jesus, the fake Christ and in so doing they also preach false doctrines about that fake Christ.
As I said, The false prophets and false teachers preach another Jesus.( 2 Cor 11:4 ) .... a different one to the one the bible talks about. They preach a false Jesus Christ who once was on earth in the flesh and is not currently on earth in the flesh today but will come back to earth in the flesh one day according to their false futuristic doctrines.

I agree with you that the real Jesus Christ on earth today is in the flesh of those who follow Him and are filled with His Spirit.
However many who think they follow the real Christ have been deceived by the false Christ and false teachings in the first place. They have accepted the fake as the first one and refuse to reject that first one in favour of any other one. They prefer to hold on the false doctrines than let go of them because anything or anyone that stands against their false doctrines is perceived by them as being the enemy and trying to destroy their faith.

The Real Christ does destroy the false one but He wont force Himself onto anyone any more than Jesus forced Himself on to the Pharisees or forced them to believe Him. Religious people are welcome to hang on to whatever false doctrines they want to hang on to. God always makes sure they get to hear and see the other side of the story so they can make that choice and have no excuse and cannot say they were never warned or told.
Jesus Christ is in the flesh of the ones who are IN HIM and He is in them. Those people cannot sin any more than Jesus can sin because they have been born of God. They are overcomers and have overcome the wicked one. They are not in the process of overcoming but have already overcome in the same way Jesus has already overcome the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith

1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

These people are in Jesus and with Jesus where He is. They are not waiting for Him to return any more than a person would be waiting for a person who is already with them to return.
If a person is already with you at all times and never goes any place than where you also go then why would you be waiting for them to return as if they had gone some place else?

The only people who are waiting for Jesus to return are those who need to return to Jesus because they not IN Him and He is not in them and they are not where He is. Jesus will always return to those who return to Him in the past present and future.
 

whirlwind

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I am referring to your OP where you said
"But, to those that do not "keepeth His commandments" He shall be a "stone of stumbling" to both houses...the house of Israel (Christians) and the house of Judah (Jews). Why? How? They don't have the truth...the truth of the Messiah or who the Messiah is. In the end of days the fake comes first pretending to be Christ and many believers will fall into apostasy...Christians and Jews. "


The truth is there. They won't accept it. They prefer to listen to false teachers or their own ill conceived notions....they dine on quail instead of manna. :(



You are obviously comparing the house of Israel to Christians and the house of Judah to Jews. You are saying that Jesus is an offence to both Christians and Jews because they don't have the Truth. You are saying they, both houses, referring to Christians and Jews do not keep his commandments in the first place and are offended by Truth which is Jesus himself.
Then you say in the end the fake will come and believers will fall into apostasy. How can those who don't have the truth in the first place fall into apostasy away from the Truth when they don't have the truth in the first place?
If you fall into apostasy and turn away from a lack of truth you end up in the Truth.


Those that are misled do love Christ. When the fake comes they will no longer love Christ but will love the one they believe is Christ...the instead-of-christ. That is the apostasy.


I am asking you what about the rest of the religions in the world who are not Christian or Jews? What about Muslems for example, Where do they fit in the big picture of scripture in your opinion ? Do you consider them the house of Israel or the house of Judah or what?


They are neither. There is Israel, the house of Israel and the house of Judah....Christians and Jews. All others are Gentiles.


Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are followers of Christ at all. Many are following a false Christ and are unaware of it.


True, but they believe they are Christians, they believe they follow Christ and yet.....


Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.​
 

skyangel

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The truth is there. They won't accept it. They prefer to listen to false teachers or their own ill conceived notions....they dine on quail instead of manna. :(
So let me get this straight, When you refer to " They" are you referring to ALL Christians and ALL Jews? In other words are you referring to ALL professing believers in God regardless of religious affiliation and regardless of whether they are Christians, or Jews, or Muslims or any other religion?


Those that are misled do love Christ. When the fake comes they will no longer love Christ but will love the one they believe is Christ...the instead-of-christ. That is the apostasy.

What if the "Christ" that people love is the fake one in the first place? What if they are deceived by the fake before they meet the real thing? Will they accept the REAL in place of the one they think is real since they will obviously think the second one is the fake one since they have been brainwashed to believe the first one is the real one?
What happens if their fake one never shows up in the sky as they are led to believe he will? Will they die in their deceptions?



They are neither. There is Israel, the house of Israel and the house of Judah....Christians and Jews. All others are Gentiles.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Since Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, does that exclude the Gentiles from salvation or does it mean the Gentiles who end up being saved were the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Or are you suggesting the Gentiles don't belong to the house of Israel at all? Was Jesus sent to the house of Judah as well as to the house of Israel or was the house of Judah also excluded from salvation?




True, but they believe they are Christians, they believe they follow Christ and yet.....
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.​

That is why it is so important to know and understand the difference between the real and the fake is it not? How do you suggest anyone learns to recognize that difference? How do you suggest waking up the dead and opening the eyes and ears of the blind and deaf ? How do you convince a person that what they have been taught to believe is truth is indeed a lie and not the Truth at all?
 

fivesense

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The truth is there. They won't accept it. They prefer to listen to false teachers or their own ill conceived notions....they dine on quail instead of manna. :(

Those that are misled do love Christ. When the fake comes they will no longer love Christ but will love the one they believe is Christ...the instead-of-christ. That is the apostasy.

They are neither. There is Israel, the house of Israel and the house of Judah....Christians and Jews. All others are Gentiles.
True, but they believe they are Christians, they believe they follow Christ and yet.....

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.


How close you are to apprehending the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom may not be apparent to many, whirlwind. Most assuredly, those who favor the Kingdom Gospel taught by our Lord must abide by the commands and ordinances He gave forth, or else they are breaking the New Covenant stipulations. It is an earthly covenant and must be confirmed by physical proofs and evidence to make the claim, "I have faith". To not "follow Christ" is to be cut off from the Kingdom of heaven on earth, and to be cast adrift in a world maddeded by sin.

As for those who believe the Gospel of God dispensed by the only Apostle sent by God to the nations, Paul, there is much comfort in knowing that they are justified and beyond the reach of condemnation and judgment. Were it not for the Father's superabundance of mercy and grace to instill Christ's faith in us, we too would be subject to the Kingdom preaching of the Lord and the Twelve, and considered "Christians" as were the Jews of Antioch, or, "little-christs", a term of derogation at it's inception and formation. Paul never once uses the term Christian to describe us, the body of Christ. It is far below who we are and what we are called to as the elect of God.

fivesense
 

whirlwind

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How close you are to apprehending the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom may not be apparent to many, whirlwind. Most assuredly, those who favor the Kingdom Gospel taught by our Lord must abide by the commands and ordinances He gave forth, or else they are breaking the New Covenant stipulations. It is an earthly covenant and must be confirmed by physical proofs and evidence to make the claim, "I have faith". To not "follow Christ" is to be cut off from the Kingdom of heaven on earth, and to be cast adrift in a world maddeded by sin.

As for those who believe the Gospel of God dispensed by the only Apostle sent by God to the nations, Paul, there is much comfort in knowing that they are justified and beyond the reach of condemnation and judgment. Were it not for the Father's superabundance of mercy and grace to instill Christ's faith in us, we too would be subject to the Kingdom preaching of the Lord and the Twelve, and considered "Christians" as were the Jews of Antioch, or, "little-christs", a term of derogation at it's inception and formation. Paul never once uses the term Christian to describe us, the body of Christ. It is far below who we are and what we are called to as the elect of God.
fivesense


And therein you have eloquently answered the question asked in the thread "Go Into"...which should have been "Go Into Captivity" but I mistakenly hit a button and posted too soon. :blink: :lol: (I think I'll be able to add more to that thread today)

The question it asked...."who are these vessels He speaks of? Why are His children ordered to go into captivity and yet some of the vessels remain???" To which you replied...."I dare not guess Whirlwind. I should most assuradly find myself in jeopardy of missing your conclusion to this if I did. I will not hazard it. It must be to prove the Redeemer lives at the least. Is it us? I hazarded it, I'm sorry..."

I agree with your "guess." They/we are His elect....those you have described in your above reply. As such, we are His "peculiar people," set aside for a purpose.
 

whirlwind

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So let me get this straight, When you refer to " They" are you referring to ALL Christians and ALL Jews? In other words are you referring to ALL professing believers in God regardless of religious affiliation and regardless of whether they are Christians, or Jews, or Muslims or any other religion?


I am referring to all of those that follow man and not Christ...even though many believe they do.



What if the "Christ" that people love is the fake one in the first place? What if they are deceived by the fake before they meet the real thing? Will they accept the REAL in place of the one they think is real since they will obviously think the second one is the fake one since they have been brainwashed to believe the first one is the real one?
What happens if their fake one never shows up in the sky as they are led to believe he will? Will they die in their deceptions?


They are being deceived now...have been for a long time. Each time they kiss the ring of the Pope and bow to him and call him "holy father," each time they shout for joy at the teaching of rapture, each time they pass snakes around, each time they sit in pews being led by practicing homosexuals, each time, each time, each time.....they are ALLOWING themselves to be deceived. They believe they follow Christ but they follow the teaching of man and it's all so holy, wonderful and religious.

There will be no opportunity for them to "think the second one is the fake" for when the True Savior is here....this age ends. It will then be too late for them to be of the spiritually living. Instead they shall be considered the dead...spiritually dead, and will be taught during the millennium. This time, taught without the influence of Satan but....he'll be back and again tempt them.


Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Since Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, does that exclude the Gentiles from salvation or does it mean the Gentiles who end up being saved were the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Or are you suggesting the Gentiles don't belong to the house of Israel at all? Was Jesus sent to the house of Judah as well as to the house of Israel or was the house of Judah also excluded from salvation?


Jesus and His discipes were, as the above quote shows, only sent to the house of Israel. Paul's commission was the Gentiles. Once a Gentile becomes a believer then they are of Israel, an adopted son.

No, the Jews (house of Judah), are not excluded from salvation. The two houses shall become one....

Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.​

That is why it is so important to know and understand the difference between the real and the fake is it not? How do you suggest anyone learns to recognize that difference? How do you suggest waking up the dead and opening the eyes and ears of the blind and deaf ? How do you convince a person that what they have been taught to believe is truth is indeed a lie and not the Truth at all?


Understand that He has blinded many for a reason and only He can remove the scales. It is the duty, the destiny, of His elect to speak His Words, not man's, and that seed planted will spring to life....if He wills it. We cannot force others to see what we see nor should we. So my answer is.....teach using His Words for they contain the power.
 

JarBreaker

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Jesus and His discipes were, as the above quote shows, only sent to the house of Israel. Paul's commission was the Gentiles. Once a Gentile becomes a believer then they are of Israel, an adopted son.

No, the Jews (house of Judah), are not excluded from salvation. The two houses shall become one....

Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.​


If fivesense would see this he would back up on his Paul is for us, the 12 werent thingie ...


Those natural branches were broken off to MAKE ROOM for those of the nations (gentiles) who would join themselves to Israel.

Those who were invited to the wedding feast and DIDNT BOTHER TO SHOW UP .... those were the broken-off branches.

He will fill those seats!
 

fivesense

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I am referring to all of those that follow man and not Christ...even though many believe they do.

There will be no opportunity for them to "think the second one is the fake" for when the True Savior is here....this age ends. It will then be too late for them to be of the spiritually living. Instead they shall be considered the dead...spiritually dead, and will be taught during the millennium. This time, taught without the influence of Satan but....he'll be back and again tempt them.
Jesus and His discipes were, as the above quote shows, only sent to the house of Israel. Paul's commission was the Gentiles. Once a Gentile becomes a believer then they are of Israel, an adopted son.

No, the Jews (house of Judah), are not excluded from salvation. The two houses shall become one....Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

Understand that He has blinded many for a reason and only He can remove the scales. It is the duty, the destiny, of His elect to speak His Words, not man's, and that seed planted will spring to life....if He wills it. We cannot force others to see what we see nor should we. So my answer is.....teach using His Words for they contain the power.

As I posted previously in "The Ten Tribes Theory", refusing to accept the word of God as spoken by His Holy Apostles is what is the root of the teaching of the two house division. God's latest revelation by Holy Spirit has concluded Israel as one, for they will all be judged during the tribulation period for their failure to enter into the Kingdom of the King while He was present on the earth. He has concluded the matter:

AV Mt 8:10 Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

AV Mt 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

AV Mt 9:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

AV Lk 1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

AV Lk 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

AV Lk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

AV Jn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

AV Jn 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

AV Ac 1:6 . When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

AV Ac 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

AV Ac 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

AV Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

AV Ac 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

AV Ac 26:7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

AV Ja 1:1 . James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The New Covenant ended the matter of there being a division in Israel. It is a Covenant of promise that incorporated both into one, and the consequent rejection by both houses the proclamation of Messiah earned them both the condemnation which is to come. The fulfillment of the first Covenant was based upon inclusion of all as Israel. The second also maintains that prerequisite:

Hb 8:8 For finding fault, He saith to them, 'Lo, days come, saith the Lord, and I will complete with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, a (singular) new covenant,
Hb 8:10 because this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws into their mind, and upon their hearts I will write them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me for a people;

None of these passages pertains to us, the Body of Christ, which is the new humanity, chosen and justified by grace and faith. It pertains to Isreal and the Jews alone, and is fleshly and physical. Unless, of course, God intends on backing out of His spoken agreement, and is a failure in His planning, therefore according to theology, He has "spiritualized" it in order to make it so, and threw us in with the mess.
They are one nation, one race, in the plan and mind of God. This is His latest revealed truth about the matter. It is best to cast off the false teaching of separation as it engenders other falsehoods to support its myth. To argue for a "two-house" theory is to argue against God's latest revelation to us. Is that wisdom?

fivesense
 

whirlwind

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None of these passages pertains to us, the Body of Christ, which is the new humanity, chosen and justified by grace and faith. It pertains to Isreal and the Jews alone, and is fleshly and physical. Unless, of course, God intends on backing out of His spoken agreement, and is a failure in His planning, therefore according to theology, He has "spiritualized" it in order to make it so, and threw us in with the mess.
They are one nation, one race, in the plan and mind of God. This is His latest revealed truth about the matter. It is best to cast off the false teaching of separation as it engenders other falsehoods to support its myth. To argue for a "two-house" theory is to argue against God's latest revelation to us. Is that wisdom?

fivesense


I have never spoken with someone that understood that there were two separate houses and now sees them as you do. Usually, most simply never realized there was a division and treated them as being Israel...all Jews in their mind. So, I'm trying to understand why you're seeing it this way. How did this understanding become a "revealed truth?" By that I mean, revealed by the Spirit to you...through Scripture...through someone's teaching?

As there are biblically, "two-houses," would it not be fact rather than theory? Even if now it is to be seen spiritually...there remains the division. I guess I need to go to the other thread and have a look.
 

JarBreaker

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As I posted previously in "The Ten Tribes Theory", refusing to accept the word of God as spoken by His Holy Apostles ....

I may read this later if only to try to see where your so twisted on this.

But for now you need to hear that all that stuff I didnt quote is a lot of mess to confuse and draw people from the truth.

Yer buddy Mike puttin you up to this ?
 

fivesense

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I have never spoken with someone that understood that there were two separate houses and now sees them as you do. Usually, most simply never realized there was a division and treated them as being Israel...all Jews in their mind. So, I'm trying to understand why you're seeing it this way. How did this understanding become a "revealed truth?" By that I mean, revealed by the Spirit to you...through Scripture...through someone's teaching?

As there are biblically, "two-houses," would it not be fact rather than theory? Even if now it is to be seen spiritually...there remains the division. I guess I need to go to the other thread and have a look.


Whirlwind, that you have found place and allowance to consider what I am submitting for all to read is encouraging. Although it may be a task to sift through the things we have held to as truth for so long, it is needful to examine things afresh now and then.

I am certain that if you look through all of the New Testament you will not find any mention of the separation into two distinct houses of God's people. It is an Old Testament enigma that has not been carried over into God's plan for His chosen, earthly people, Israel.

I do not know how to make it any more understandable than to quote the passages that I did from the New Testament to indicate the mind of God on the matter. He sees them as one, and deals with them in that way. He is moving forward, though Israel is still stubborn to the truth. The reality of the New Covenant could not find expression in a divided Israel, because those promises have always included the whole or nothing.

When I speak "revealed truth" it is the exact wording of the Scriptures that I refer to. I do not desire to use my own words or convey my own opinions unless they are based upon the revealed word of God. For example, I believe that James 1:1 is revealed truth, and it must be believed, though it may clash with my own opinions. I would hope that all the saints of God would agree to these things. If they did, there would be less trouble.

I admire you for your strength to defend the Written Word of God. You are keen and strong in your abilities. All I ask is that you believe God.

fivesense

I may read this later if only to try to see where your so twisted on this.

But for now you need to hear that all that stuff I didnt quote is a lot of mess to confuse and draw people from the truth.

Yer buddy Mike puttin you up to this ?


Thank you for adding edification to the Body with your comments.
fivesense