How does everything fit together... the Birth of Jesus, and what follows !

WaterSong said:

Perhaps the arrow is pointed at the scorpion to symbolize Scorpio?
Great discussion thus far. I'll share more as I have time and when it isn't so late here.

One thing about the gifts of the Magi. Frankincense and Myrrh were very valuable in those times. Perhaps such a gift was thought by the Magi that which would to insure the holy family would be well off and able to survive themselves on such rich gifts fit for a king.

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Rita said:

Thank you Jay, that actually follows my original train of thought - so if nothing else at least I know that others agree. That’s a really helpful PDF xx

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Rita said:

@justbyfaith and I had a difference of opinion about certain aspects following Jesus’s birth. I feel that Luke 2:22 is not the same event as Luke2:21. Also I have been trying to work out when Joesph took Mary and Jesus to Egypt, how it fits in with the accounts in Matthews gospel and Luke’s. Also the gifts would have given provision to Mary and Joseph ,yet at the purification they can only afford birds. Had they gone to Egypt and used those gifts, or had they not encountered the magi and in fact returned to Bethlehem, and the gone to Egypt. Anyone else got any thoughts...... here are my own. .....

....We know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem

We know that the star was first seen by the Shepherds

‘ After Jesus was born in Bethlehem Magi from the east came to Jerusalem ‘ They proclaimed that they had seen a star and knew a King had been born. ( Matthew chapter 2 ) Now we know that they came from the east , some presume this was from Persia or souther Arabia. I am presuming the Star they saw was the one that the Shepherds had seen. So these wise men would have left their home countries around about the time of the birth of Jesus. This would have been the starting time frame for Herod. ( Matthew 2:16 )

It is estimated that the journey would have taken months, then they would have spent time in Jerusalem, then travelled to Bethlehem.

So I am not sure that it would have taken them years to reach Jesus. So he could have been in his first year.

We know that more time would have lapsed before King Herod discovered that they had not gone back to him, his decree to murder All boys two years under appears to be more of a desperate measure to make sure. I mean why kill babies under a certain age if time had lapsed since the Magi proclaimed to him that the King had been born. It conveys that he simply wasn’t sure and wanted to cover his bases.

We know that Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, but the gospel doesn’t relay where that took place. ( Luke 2: 21 ) Now the next passage is the one we disagree on....... it states in Luke 2: 22 ‘ When the time of their purification , according to the law of Moses, had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem ....... it doesn’t say his purification , but theirs ... in Leviticus chapter 12 it states that after a birth a period of approx 40 days should pass before they are allowed to go to the temple ( unless it is a girl, then the time is longer ). Both parents were in the temple mentioned in Luke 2:22 onwards, so surely if this part of the gospel was referring to Jesus being circumcised Mary would not have been able to enter the temple.
I must admit that I get a bit lost with all the timing between Matthew and Luke’s account with regards to when they went to Egypt, we know that they were warned after the Magi had left and also it conveys that Joseph left in the night and travelled there. Only after Herod died did they return and settle in Nazareth Yet in the account in Luke it claims that after they had done all things required by the law ( circumcision and purification ) they settled down in Nazareth.

It did occur to me that purification can take place after the 40 days, but didn’t have to take place then, which means that they could have gone to Egypt and fulfilled that part of the law when it was safe for them to return to Jerusalem. Samuel was three years old before he was presented at the temple and given to the Lord to fulfil the promise his mother had made.

This would tie in with accounts that they were in Egypt a few years, and also fit in with Herods decree and his later death. If Jesus was in his first year when the Magi arrived, that would also fit in.
With regards to the gifts, I guess it very much depends on how this all fits together .....

Those gifts could have been a means of provision for both of them going to Egypt

It depends when they presented Jesus at the temple , so I keep an open mind on that for the time being.

It would be interesting to see what others think about this part of Jesus story and how it all fits together. Where do others think Egypt fits in to the time line.

Rita

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Ziggy said:

Ishmael is the archer.

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Ishmael is of the seed of Abraham. 1st born. Circumcised when he was 13 years old on the same day Abraham was at 99.
Media or Medes or Madai = "middle land"
a people descended from the son of Japheth and who inhabited the territory of Media
and inhabited by the descendants of Japheth; located northwest of Persia proper, south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, east of Armenia and Assyria, and west and northwest of the great salt desert of Iram

Japheth is the 3rd son of Noah.
Gen 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Abraham descended from Shem. Ishmael descended from Abraham. Ishmael is the Archer.

NLT:
May God expand the territory of Japheth!
May Japheth share the prosperity of Shem,

I think it's cool how verse 19 resembles the woman at the well.

For some reason Ishmael is taboo.. we don't talk about him. Even though God promised Abraham he would bless him and be with him.
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Gen 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Gen 17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

There was a covenant made with Isaac, and a blessing to Ishmael.
I believe the Kings from the east are Ishmael's kin coming to worship the newborn King.

The works my Father do...
You know the day that Isaac was weened Abraham threw a great feast. That same day Sarah got upset because she saw Ismael mocking Isaac and threw him and Hagar out. And God was with the lad in the wilderness...

Both Ishmael and Isaac came to bury their Father Abraham in the caves he baught.
Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
Gen 25:10 The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

And when Isaac died all of the Hebrews who live in Egypt while Joseph was 2nd in command, and All of Egypt.. a great company,
all went together to the cave of Machpelah to bury "their" Father. Which would have been Ishmael's brother.

Gen 50:7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,
Gen 50:8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house: only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds, they left in the land of Goshen.
Gen 50:9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen: and it was a very great company.
Gen 50:10 And they came to the threshingfloor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation: and he made a mourning for his father seven days.
Gen 50:11 And when the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, saw the mourning in the floor of Atad, they said, This is a grievous mourning to the Egyptians: wherefore the name of it was called Abelmizraim, which is beyond Jordan.

It was Ishmael's brother Isaac that died.. and was a grievous mourning to the Egyptians.
And the embalmed Isaac as was the "custom" .

Gen 50:2 And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.
Gen 50:3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

Lots of interesting stuff everywhere. I keep running out of shovels..

and popcorn..

Hugs

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Rita said:

Just had a random chat with my son, he asked about frankincense and myrrh ( one of the adverts in the uk at the moment says that if the wise men were around today they would go to Asda for their gifts - it started a weird conversation ) Anyway i didn’t realise that both have very high healing properties , used today as natural anti inflammatory. After reading your post Ziggy, and reading the info about these gifts, I started to consider the symbolism behind the gifts.........still pondering x
Rita

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Ziggy said:

Ishmael is the archer.

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Ishmael is of the seed of Abraham. 1st born. Circumcised when he was 13 years old on the same day Abraham was at 99.
Media or Medes or Madai = "middle land"
a people descended from the son of Japheth and who inhabited the territory of Media
and inhabited by the descendants of Japheth; located northwest of Persia proper, south and southwest of the Caspian Sea, east of Armenia and Assyria, and west and northwest of the great salt desert of Iram

Japheth is the 3rd son of Noah.
Gen 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Abraham descended from Shem. Ishmael descended from Abraham. Ishmael is the Archer.

NLT:
May God expand the territory of Japheth!
May Japheth share the prosperity of Shem,

I think it's cool how verse 19 resembles the woman at the well.

For some reason Ishmael is taboo.. we don't talk about him. Even though God promised Abraham he would bless him and be with him.
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Gen 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Gen 17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

There was a covenant made with Isaac, and a blessing to Ishmael.
I believe the Kings from the east are Ishmael's kin coming to worship the newborn King.

The works my Father do...
You know the day that Isaac was weened Abraham threw a great feast. That same day Sarah got upset because she saw Ismael mocking Isaac and threw him and Hagar out. And God was with the lad in the wilderness...

Both Ishmael and Isaac came to bury their Father Abraham in the caves he baught.
Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
Gen 25:10 The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

And when Isaac died all of the Hebrews who live in Egypt while Joseph was 2nd in command, and All of Egypt.. a great company,
all went together to the cave of Machpelah to bury "their" Father. Which would have been Ishmael's brother.

Gen 50:7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt,
Gen 50:8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house: only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds, they left in the land of Goshen.
Gen 50:9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen: and it was a very great company.
Gen 50:10 And they came to the threshingfloor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation: and he made a mourning for his father seven days.
Gen 50:11 And when the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, saw the mourning in the floor of Atad, they said, This is a grievous mourning to the Egyptians: wherefore the name of it was called Abelmizraim, which is beyond Jordan.

It was Ishmael's brother Isaac that died.. and was a grievous mourning to the Egyptians.
And the embalmed Isaac as was the "custom" .

Gen 50:2 And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.
Gen 50:3 And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

Lots of interesting stuff everywhere. I keep running out of shovels..

and popcorn..

Hugs

Click to expand...

Rita said:

@justbyfaith and I had a difference of opinion about certain aspects following Jesus’s birth. I feel that Luke 2:22 is not the same event as Luke2:21. Also I have been trying to work out when Joesph took Mary and Jesus to Egypt, how it fits in with the accounts in Matthews gospel and Luke’s. Also the gifts would have given provision to Mary and Joseph ,yet at the purification they can only afford birds. Had they gone to Egypt and used those gifts, or had they not encountered the magi and in fact returned to Bethlehem, and the gone to Egypt. Anyone else got any thoughts...... here are my own. .....

....We know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem

We know that the star was first seen by the Shepherds

‘ After Jesus was born in Bethlehem Magi from the east came to Jerusalem ‘ They proclaimed that they had seen a star and knew a King had been born. ( Matthew chapter 2 ) Now we know that they came from the east , some presume this was from Persia or souther Arabia. I am presuming the Star they saw was the one that the Shepherds had seen. So these wise men would have left their home countries around about the time of the birth of Jesus. This would have been the starting time frame for Herod. ( Matthew 2:16 )

It is estimated that the journey would have taken months, then they would have spent time in Jerusalem, then travelled to Bethlehem.

So I am not sure that it would have taken them years to reach Jesus. So he could have been in his first year.

We know that more time would have lapsed before King Herod discovered that they had not gone back to him, his decree to murder All boys two years under appears to be more of a desperate measure to make sure. I mean why kill babies under a certain age if time had lapsed since the Magi proclaimed to him that the King had been born. It conveys that he simply wasn’t sure and wanted to cover his bases.

We know that Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day, but the gospel doesn’t relay where that took place. ( Luke 2: 21 ) Now the next passage is the one we disagree on....... it states in Luke 2: 22 ‘ When the time of their purification , according to the law of Moses, had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem ....... it doesn’t say his purification , but theirs ... in Leviticus chapter 12 it states that after a birth a period of approx 40 days should pass before they are allowed to go to the temple ( unless it is a girl, then the time is longer ). Both parents were in the temple mentioned in Luke 2:22 onwards, so surely if this part of the gospel was referring to Jesus being circumcised Mary would not have been able to enter the temple.
I must admit that I get a bit lost with all the timing between Matthew and Luke’s account with regards to when they went to Egypt, we know that they were warned after the Magi had left and also it conveys that Joseph left in the night and travelled there. Only after Herod died did they return and settle in Nazareth Yet in the account in Luke it claims that after they had done all things required by the law ( circumcision and purification ) they settled down in Nazareth.

It did occur to me that purification can take place after the 40 days, but didn’t have to take place then, which means that they could have gone to Egypt and fulfilled that part of the law when it was safe for them to return to Jerusalem. Samuel was three years old before he was presented at the temple and given to the Lord to fulfil the promise his mother had made.

This would tie in with accounts that they were in Egypt a few years, and also fit in with Herods decree and his later death. If Jesus was in his first year when the Magi arrived, that would also fit in.
With regards to the gifts, I guess it very much depends on how this all fits together .....

Those gifts could have been a means of provision for both of them going to Egypt

It depends when they presented Jesus at the temple , so I keep an open mind on that for the time being.

It would be interesting to see what others think about this part of Jesus story and how it all fits together. Where do others think Egypt fits in to the time line.

Rita

Click to expand...

Ziggy said:

Interesting that there are 12 constellations. 12 zodiac signs.
I never been much for horoscopes and stargazing. But back in the days of Babylon and Egypt that's where they got most their gods from.
They didn't have tv so they watched the "stars" .. funny isn't it.. they follow the stars like people follow celebrities.
But all of the constellations are in the bible with their seasons and times.
And in Genesis God says he gave these to us as signs so we would know the times and the seasons.
Like when Jesus is saying you know how to read the sky when its going to be rainy or sunny, but you don't know how to read the times or the seasons.
Maybe I start a study on the 12 Constellations. You have the great dragon which I believe is the asteroid belt. could be leviathan too, I have to check it out.
Science isn't a great topic for me, but your never too old to learn something new.
Least this old dog still tries to have an open mind LOL
Like Jupiter and Apollos I think they called Paul and Bartholemew?
The planets, venus and mars.. their all in the bible. Some are hidden, some are very bright.
And then there is ye shall be as the stars of heaven... or the sands of the sea..
I seen lots of books about this but I never took the time to really read them.

I'm an Aries.. the Ram.. stubborn .. fire sign ..
anywhooo...
Hugs

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michaelvpardo said:

There are actually 13 zodiac signs, but most of modern astrology ignores ophiucus (the serpent bearer.)

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Ziggy said:

I can't talk about this..

But the Hebrew Calandar has 13 months as well. Which I find rather interesting..
or found rather interesting..
Nevertheless..
Shine On!

Hugs

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Bartholomew Jones said:

It's not astrology. There are sometimes thirteen moons, sometimes 12 moons in a year. Astrology and zodiac are of the devil.

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Ziggy said:

what about constellations like Orion.. is that astronomy or astrology?

Because see, even though Orion is named in the BIBLE and it represents the HUNTER.
I could say that Orion represents Nimrod.
Now would that be occultic to say so???
And isn't zodiac the time of year they appear in the sky.. like say, times and seasons??
If so, then even thinking about what time the star appeared or what it meant..
is apparently
TABOO

I don't usually take to science.. but when I do...
nevermind

What's the difference between the two?
JUST CURIOUS

Thank You
Hugs

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Bartholomew Jones said:

Astronomy is simply the study of the "stars" as a natural element, and as phenomena of nature. As a constellation, Orion is a grouping of stars. The magi would have listened while pondering the stars, and probably had stories, but not equating with astrology.

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Ziggy said:

I have so much to say.... but I'm going to literally Bite my tongue.
Thank You
Hugs

some 17th century scientists were replacing Aristotle.
It was the new Science that shut him down..
Yup the New Normal... keeping everybody dumbed down, one century at a time..

anywhoo..
Hugs

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