The Change To The Gospel

RichardBurger · Jul 11, 2010

This thread is about the change from one covenant to another covenant (from one gospel to another gospel). The change from the gospel of the kingdom (the promised Jewish kingdom with the Jewish law of Moses) to a gospel of grace that does not include the Law of Moses. -- This is what some term as the “two gospels idea” and they mostly reject the idea that the gospel changed.

THE OLD REPLACED BY THE NEW:

2 Cor 3:6-18 (NKJ)
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.

Note that there are two Ministries mentioned in the verses above and one is being replaced.

10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.

11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as ""by"" the Spirit of the Lord.

Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Heb 8:6-7 (NKJ)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant (Law) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

If there was never any other gospel (covenant) than the gospel of the grace of God, as some claim, why was it necessary to replace an old covenant (gospel)? If one was "unprofitable" then it must have failed to be profitable. In order to replace the old, the old had to exist in order to be replaced.

Jesus and the 12 (or 11) taught the gospel of the Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant to which the law was added (Gal 3:16-19). The law failed because of " its weakness and unprofitable-ness" It was "unprofitable" because of the weakness of men. Men could not live up to the standards of God's perfect laws. But Jesus did and He did it for us.

Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Notice that Peter proclaimed the crucifixion of Jesus as something for the Jews to repent of (Acts 2) where Paul proclaimed that he gloried in the cross of Christ (Gal 6:11-15). Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages.

fivesense · Jul 11, 2010

You tread on thin ice when you stand by the word, and say there are two Gospels. The Scriptures make plain that truth, yet few there be that can discern the difference. That you have entered into an awareness of it marks the beginning of great things for you.

If you will bear with me, I will attempt to divide the word correctly on this, so I anticipate gainsayers.

2 Cor 3:6 is not the "New Covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31, Matthew 26:28, or of Hebrews 12:24. In Mark 14:24 the Lord refers to the blood of the new testament He will shed as "for many", not the whole world. It is the Covenant of Jeremiah 31 promised in the Old Testament. It pertains only to Israel, not us.This is correctly dividing the word of truth. 2 Cor 3:6 does not read "the (ho, Gk.) new covenant. Ho, or the, is omitted because it is not "the" new covenant, but another one between God and men, apart from Israel. And as Christ was the minister of the New Covenant to Israel, so Paul was the minister of Christ to us, the Gentiles, with a new covenant apart from works and faith, attained through election and grace alone.

It is incorrect to assume that God is not in Covenant with Israel, and that we somehow have taken their place. That is error. The New Covenant is based upon repentance, baptism, and faith towards God, combined with the commandments found in the Sermon on the Mount. Israel is obligated to follow these, we are not. To us they are guidelines and the revelation of God's just requirments, not commandments to be followed. Their covenant with God demands fruits meet for repentance. Paul's gospel of grace has no such edict. It is by grace through faith-obedience that we serve God, in spirit, not in flesh.

To quote from a letter that is 100% Jewish in origin and subject matter, as is the letter to the Hebrews, is to introduce issues that do not pertain to us as the nations. In the very start of the letter it is said,"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son". Should anyone read this introduction and fail to see the address on the envelope, then that is to their discredit and ignorance. I reaffirm the word of God here and now, it was written to the Jewish believers in the Lord who saw their hopes and promised Kingdom collapsing before their eyes. It is a letter to encourage them to go on in faith, in spite of having not received the promise of the earthly Kingdom.

Ac 1:6 . When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Had there been any promise of a heavenly, celestial allotment, such a question would never have arisen. But Israel is to inherit the earth, as the Lord even said,

Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

He would have put the kabosh on any false thing right then and there, but He did not.

As to the mixing of two different things as being identical (, the gospel and the Covenants), such a mistake cannot be overlooked. The Glad tiding, the evangel of the grace of God, Paul's own personal gospel that no other man received, is not a covenant, it is a proclamation of God to be believed. It is by believing Paul's evangel that covenant is entered into, by faith in the Son of God. It is one-sided, like all God's covenants that no one has been able to keep with Him. He remains faithful to fulfill His end of the deal no matter what.

Peter's gospel and Paul's were very similar in the early stages of Paul's career, while he was still attempting to evangelize the Jew first, and also the Gentile. But when Israel finally rejected the Twelve apostles witness, the door was closed to them, and opened to the nations. It is then that the secrets revealed to Paul alone could be made known, and the Body of Christ become the sole way to God until His advent in clouds. Israel's loss became the riches of the world.

fivesense

RichardBurger · Jul 11, 2010

fivesense said:
You tread on thin ice when you stand by the word, and say there are two Gospels. The Scriptures make plain that truth, yet few there be that can discern the difference. That you have entered into an awareness of it marks the beginning of great things for you.

If you will bear with me, I will attempt to divide the word correctly on this, so I anticipate gainsayers.

2 Cor 3:6 is not the "New Covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31, Matthew 26:28, or of Hebrews 12:24. In Mark 14:24 the Lord refers to the blood of the new testament He will shed as "for many", not the whole world. It is the Covenant of Jeremiah 31 promised in the Old Testament. It pertains only to Israel, not us.This is correctly dividing the word of truth. 2 Cor 3:6 does not read "the (ho, Gk.) new covenant. Ho, or the, is omitted because it is not "the" new covenant, but another one between God and men, apart from Israel. And as Christ was the minister of the New Covenant to Israel, so Paul was the minister of Christ to us, the Gentiles, with a new covenant apart from works and faith, attained through election and grace alone.

It is incorrect to assume that God is not in Covenant with Israel, and that we somehow have taken their place. That is error. The New Covenant is based upon repentance, baptism, and faith towards God, combined with the commandments found in the Sermon on the Mount. Israel is obligated to follow these, we are not. To us they are guidelines and the revelation of God's just requirments, not commandments to be followed. Their covenant with God demands fruits meet for repentance. Paul's gospel of grace has no such edict. It is by grace through faith-obedience that we serve God, in spirit, not in flesh.

To quote from a letter that is 100% Jewish in origin and subject matter, as is the letter to the Hebrews, is to introduce issues that do not pertain to us as the nations. In the very start of the letter it is said,"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son". Should anyone read this introduction and fail to see the address on the envelope, then that is to their discredit and ignorance. I reaffirm the word of God here and now, it was written to the Jewish believers in the Lord who saw their hopes and promised Kingdom collapsing before their eyes. It is a letter to encourage them to go on in faith, in spite of having not received the promise of the earthly Kingdom.

Ac 1:6 . When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Had there been any promise of a heavenly, celestial allotment, such a question would never have arisen. But Israel is to inherit the earth, as the Lord even said,

Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

He would have put the kabosh on any false thing right then and there, but He did not.

As to the mixing of two different things as being identical (, the gospel and the Covenants), such a mistake cannot be overlooked. The Glad tiding, the evangel of the grace of God, Paul's own personal gospel that no other man received, is not a covenant, it is a proclamation of God to be believed. It is by believing Paul's evangel that covenant is entered into, by faith in the Son of God. It is one-sided, like all God's covenants that no one has been able to keep with Him. He remains faithful to fulfill His end of the deal no matter what.

Peter's gospel and Paul's were very similar in the early stages of Paul's career, while he was still attempting to evangelize the Jew first, and also the Gentile. But when Israel finally rejected the Twelve apostles witness, the door was closed to them, and opened to the nations. It is then that the secrets revealed to Paul alone could be made known, and the Body of Christ become the sole way to God until His advent in clouds. Israel's loss became the riches of the world.

fivesense

I like what you wrote and think I can agree with it. But do you also conclude that the book of James is not written to us? -- I do.

Paul · Jul 11, 2010

RB and fs, it would be best if you both took a look at this text in Greek. You are missing the mark.

fivesense · Jul 12, 2010

Paul said:
RB and fs, it would be best if you both took a look at this text in Greek. You are missing the mark.

Paul, while I appreciate your skill in developing your personal thoughts, it would aid us considerably if you would refrain from criticism and supply redirection to the appropriate resources you feel are needed to obtain truth in God's word. This is the second time I have pointed out this propensity on your part, and though I encourage your advances, your help is needed, not your bias.

fivesense.

bling · Jul 12, 2010

I have been in many discussions with MAD (Mid Acts Dispensationalist), who try to present the idea Paul is presenting a mystery Gospel of “grace” That was not part of Peter’s or Christ’s teaching.

Anyone saved from Adam on was saved by Grace, God’s mercy, Love, forgiveness, Charity. It has always been through faith (trusting God’s Love to forgive) that has saved people.

The “Mystery” given Paul is spelled out in Eph., Rm., Cor. and Gal. as being the unification of the Jewish and Gentile Christians (God’s true Children). This “unification took a long transition with God helping all along the way. The persecutions of Christians in Judah caused Jewish Christians to go to Samaria and Gentile territories, the famine in Judah allowed gentile Christians to help their Jewish brothers. The final destruction of Jerusalem and the temple records made it in possible to prove your Jewish origin and forced the remaining Jewish Christians to live in and with Gentile Christian communities.
The unification was hard, mysterious and time consuming, but the plan continued with the desired results.

fivesense · Jul 12, 2010

RichardBurger said:
I like what you wrote and think I can agree with it. But do you also conclude that the book of James is not written to us? -- I do.

Martin Luther, the great Reformer, was of the opinion that James' letter was not inspired of God, and should be discarded from the Bible. His inability to correctly divide the word of truth formed his opinion, and it should be a lesson to all who fail to do so.

James was not an apostle. He was the Lord's brother in the flesh. His command of the Jewish ecclesia in the place of Peter and the other Apostles should be an indicator to the discriminating student the depth to which the Jerusalem believers had plunged. No longer did the commission to "go and preach unto all the nations" have a place in them. Other than Peter's feeble and forced journey to Cornelius' home, and Philip's encounter with the Ethiopian eunich, the Jews had rejected the idea of the nations sharing in the Kingdom on earth.

Ac 11:19 . Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

The Holy Spirit records the details here, the failure to fulfill the "Great Commision", a commission given to Jews only, and therefore Saul of Tarsus was targeted for the ministry of mercy and grace to the nations. Paul's name, when broken down into its root forms means "interval". His introduction as the only one commissioned by God to go to the nations was the beginning of the end for the Jewish ecclesia and their activities. The became dispersed and never saw the promises fulfilled once more.

All of James' epistle is inspired by God and is useful for instruction, correction and teaching. They are the words of God uttered by Him through Holy Spirit. But it is not written to us. The header is plain and is not contestable:

Ja 1:1 . James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

If there is any who would care to insert, "James, to the nations scattered aboad", they may feel free to do so. This type of action, adding to the pure words of God, has a reward, although I would not care to receive it myself. It is imperative to correctly divide the word of truth, in this case Circumcision truth and the truth that Paul preached and taught. Failing to do so only prevents advancement in the knowledge and wisdom and realization of God through His Holy Spirit.

fivesense

fivesense · Jul 12, 2010

bling said:
I have been in many discussions with MAD (Mid Acts Dispensationalist), who try to present the idea Paul is presenting a mystery Gospel of “grace” That was not part of Peter’s or Christ’s teaching.

Anyone saved from Adam on was saved by Grace, God’s mercy, Love, forgiveness, Charity. It has always been through faith (trusting God’s Love to forgive) that has saved people.

The “Mystery” given Paul is spelled out in Eph., Rm., Cor. and Gal. as being the unification of the Jewish and Gentile Christians (God’s true Children). This “unification took a long transition with God helping all along the way. The persecutions of Christians in Judah caused Jewish Christians to go to Samaria and Gentile territories, the famine in Judah allowed gentile Christians to help their Jewish brothers. The final destruction of Jerusalem and the temple records made it in possible to prove your Jewish origin and forced the remaining Jewish Christians to live in and with Gentile Christian communities.
The unification was hard, mysterious and time consuming, but the plan continued with the desired results.

No one is "saved" or obtains the promise of deathlessness outside of Christ bestowing it to them; and since there is only One who has immortality, the idea of anyone being "saved" until brought out from among the dead, and Christ imparting His life in them, is contradictory to the Word of God.

Faith does not impart immortality, it is the channel to the One Who can impart it, to those whom He chooses.

The "unification" of Jew and Gentile you propose to have occurred is no where recorded in history. It is a myth. The record of God stands. The separation between the Jewish ecclesia and the followers of Paul are as separate and distinct as day and night. The Scripture verify this truth. What you present is postulation based upon supposed activities that are not recorded by God. Whom shall I trust for truth?

fivesense.

RichardBurger · Jul 12, 2010

From Acts 1 until Acts 7 (or perhaps 70 AD) the Jewish nation could have repented and accepted Jesus as their savior. He would have returned for His second coming and set up His kingdom rule from Jerusalem and all Gentile nations would be blessed through Israel. Read Luke 13:6-9 and realize that Jesus told this story as an indication of what would happen if Israel (the fig tree) rejected Jesus. The Jews had a time period in which they could have repented. (Acts 2:37-38)

Luke 13:6-9 (The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree)
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
NKJV

However, just as the nation of Israel rejected God when they said they wanted a human king to rule over them, (1 Samuel 8:19 and 10:19) they also rejected the Son of God when they said they "had no king but Caesar," (John 19:15) and, finally, they rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephens, Acts 7. They had rejected all three in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who was speaking through Stephens, and their doom was sealed. The "kingdom of heaven" on this earth was put on hold until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Luke 21:24.

IMPORTANT NOTE: -- God was not going to allow the work Of His Son on the cross to go unfullfilled. God had another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

Paul · Jul 12, 2010

fivesense said:
Paul said:

RB and fs, it would be best if you both took a look at this text in Greek. You are missing the mark.

Click to expand...

Paul, while I appreciate your skill in developing your personal thoughts, it would aid us considerably if you would refrain from criticism and supply redirection to the appropriate resources you feel are needed to obtain truth in God's word. This is the second time I have pointed out this propensity on your part, and though I encourage your advances, your help is needed, not your bias.
fivesense.

#1) I don't take my direction from you!

#2) My intention was, and still is, to point out that you are missing the main point of the text you were trying to interpret.

#3) You will learn more if you do the work for yourself, if I tell you the answer you will not believe it.

#4) What do you know about the four proclamations? They are a very important part of the conversation here.

fivesense · Jul 12, 2010

Paul said:
#1) I don't take my direction from you!

#2) My intention was, and still is, to point out that you are missing the main point of the text you were trying to interpret.

#3) You will learn more if you do the work for yourself, if I tell you the answer you will not believe it.

#4) What do you know about the four proclamations? They are a very important part of the conversation here.

Again, it seems you are intent upon gainsaying, Where is the direction in your statements? What alternative do you supply in this discussion? Edification comes through empathy, not usurpation. Provide us with truths that God has revealed, not just pointless comments and self-promotion. Equip, if you are able to do so. I say this for exhortation unto grace, not doubtful disputations.

fivesense.

fivesense · Jul 12, 2010

RichardBurger said:
From Acts 1 until Acts 7 (or perhaps 70 AD) the Jewish nation could have repented and accepted Jesus as their savior. He would have returned for His second coming and set up His kingdom rule from Jerusalem and all Gentile nations would be blessed through Israel. Read Luke 13:6-9 and realize that Jesus told this story as an indication of what would happen if Israel (the fig tree) rejected Jesus. The Jews had a time period in which they could have repented. (Acts 2:37-38)

Luke 13:6-9 (The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree)
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
NKJV

However, just as the nation of Israel rejected God when they said they wanted a human king to rule over them, (1 Samuel 8:19 and 10:19) they also rejected the Son of God when they said they "had no king but Caesar," (John 19:15) and, finally, they rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephens, Acts 7. They had rejected all three in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who was speaking through Stephens, and their doom was sealed. The "kingdom of heaven" on this earth was put on hold until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Luke 21:24.

IMPORTANT NOTE: -- God was not going to allow the work Of His Son on the cross to go unfullfilled. God had another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

Your observations and conclusions are correct and scripturally sound. They warrant the attention of faithful students of the Word. I would lend this to your statements, though. You will remember the quotation of Jesus at the point in His ministry where He could see the handwriting on the wall, and the rejection had begun:

Jn 12:38-42 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

This was the door of the Kingdom on earth being closed by pronouncment of the Lord, and the keys to open it once more having been given to Peter. Hell did not prevail against the ecclesia of Jerusalem, they invited the catastrophe themselves.

The next time this pronouncement was declared, was out of the mouth of Paul, a Prophet and Priest of God:

Ac 28:25-28 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word," Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it."

It is my understanding that it is at this point that the Body of Christ and the secret was revealed, and Israel became completely cut out of the picture until the time of Jacob's trouble, the Tribulation. Up til this point, Paul's obligation to preach the Kingdom Gospel of the Lord to the Jews was necessary and part of his directions from the glorified Christ out of heaven. Salvation is of the Jews. To the Jew first, and also to the Gentile became the Gentile and the Jew as one body in spirit, not in flesh.

Such insight as you have provided to us RichardBurger, should promote much desire on the part of the saints in Christ to seek out their allotment, as it is unending and rich. Our place in the heavens is so far removed from Israel's promises, that it is a shame to see believers return to the Law as seen in the Jewish Writings.
fivesense

RichardBurger · Jul 13, 2010

fivesense said:
Your observations and conclusions are correct and scripturally sound. They warrant the attention of faithful students of the Word. I would lend this to your statements, though. You will remember the quotation of Jesus at the point in His ministry where He could see the handwriting on the wall, and the rejection had begun:

Jn 12:38-42 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

This was the door of the Kingdom on earth being closed by pronouncment of the Lord, and the keys to open it once more having been given to Peter. Hell did not prevail against the ecclesia of Jerusalem, they invited the catastrophe themselves.

The next time this pronouncement was declared, was out of the mouth of Paul, a Prophet and Priest of God:

Ac 28:25-28 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word," Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it."

It is my understanding that it is at this point that the Body of Christ and the secret was revealed, and Israel became completely cut out of the picture until the time of Jacob's trouble, the Tribulation. Up til this point, Paul's obligation to preach the Kingdom Gospel of the Lord to the Jews was necessary and part of his directions from the glorified Christ out of heaven. Salvation is of the Jews. To the Jew first, and also to the Gentile became the Gentile and the Jew as one body in spirit, not in flesh.

Such insight as you have provided to us RichardBurger, should promote much desire on the part of the saints in Christ to seek out their allotment, as it is unending and rich. Our place in the heavens is so far removed from Israel's promises, that it is a shame to see believers return to the Law as seen in the Jewish Writings.
fivesense

I have written many articles concerning your idea. The earthly Christian church has become a religion like all the other religions. The diffinition of religion is what man does for the God they think exists. That is not the gospel of grace. True Christianity is ALL about what God has done for man. But most can not, or will not, see the difference. They are becoming blinded too.

bling · Jul 13, 2010

[

quote name='fivesense' date='12 July 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1278948810' post='85513']
No one is "saved" or obtains the promise of deathlessness outside of Christ bestowing it to them; and since there is only One who has immortality, the idea of anyone being "saved" until brought out from among the dead, and Christ imparting His life in them, is contradictory to the Word of God.

Was Abel saved, was Enoch saved, was Job saved, was Moses saved, was David saved, and where the prophets saved?
Where Moses and Elijah with Christ on the mountain?

The "unification" of Jew and Gentile you propose to have occurred is no where recorded in history. It is a myth. The record of God stands. The separation between the Jewish ecclesia and the followers of Paul are as separate and distinct as day and night. The Scripture verify this truth. What you present is postulation based upon supposed activities that are not recorded by God. Whom shall I trust for truth?

fivesense.

Are you suggesting this was not a major issue Paul addressed?
Why did God allow this great famine in Judah prior to the destruction and have Paul go about the Gentile Churches collecting for the needy saints in Jerusalem?
What other “good” would come from the destruction of Jerusalem?
When did the History of the Jewish Christians cease and become part of the Christian (combined) heritage?
How could a Jew today proof they are truly Jewish with recorded records?
The unification was a transition completed after the destruction of Jerusalem so there is not much of the Bible written after the unification was completed. Historically after the destruction of Jerusalem, Jews and Christians often shared being persecuted and lived together as they fled together.

bling · Jul 13, 2010

RichardBurger said:
From Acts 1 until Acts 7 (or perhaps 70 AD) the Jewish nation could have repented and accepted Jesus as their savior. He would have returned for His second coming and set up His kingdom rule from Jerusalem and all Gentile nations would be blessed through Israel. Read Luke 13:6-9 and realize that Jesus told this story as an indication of what would happen if Israel (the fig tree) rejected Jesus. The Jews had a time period in which they could have repented. (Acts 2:37-38)

Luke 13:6-9 (The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree)
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
NKJV

However, just as the nation of Israel rejected God when they said they wanted a human king to rule over them, (1 Samuel 8:19 and 10:19) they also rejected the Son of God when they said they "had no king but Caesar," (John 19:15) and, finally, they rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephens, Acts 7. They had rejected all three in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who was speaking through Stephens, and their doom was sealed. The "kingdom of heaven" on this earth was put on hold until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Luke 21:24.

IMPORTANT NOTE: -- God was not going to allow the work Of His Son on the cross to go unfullfilled. God had another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

Are you suggesting that God and Jesus could not figure out how Christianity would be accepted by the Jews and had to opt for plan B?

The Kingdom was prophesied by Christ and would happen the same as the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied and would happen. The “Kingdom” was not put on hold. It rolled out with Pentecost and is here today. It is not “physical” but a spiritual Kingdom extending from every Christian all the way to the throne of God in heaven.

Jesus did not give us the “outcome” of the fig tree, but that does not mean Jesus did not know the outcome.

The “mystery” is defined in Eph. 3: 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

fivesense · Jul 13, 2010

bling said:
Are you suggesting that God and Jesus could not figure out how Christianity would be accepted by the Jews and had to opt for plan B?
The Kingdom was prophesied by Christ and would happen the same as the destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied and would happen. The “Kingdom” was not put on hold. It rolled out with Pentecost and is here today. It is not “physical” but a spiritual Kingdom extending from every Christian all the way to the throne of God in heaven.
Jesus did not give us the “outcome” of the fig tree, but that does not mean Jesus did not know the outcome.
The “mystery” is defined in Eph. 3: 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Bling, it is good that you are taking time to be concerned with this issue.
You are confusing two different gospels and operations of God. They are not the same. One is earthly and made of flesh, the other is heavenly and is spirit.

The promises of God to Israel through Messiah and the Prophets will come to pass. It never has and never will contain equal reign and rule with the Gentile nations. The nations always were and always will be subserviant to Israel in God's Kingdom on earth, This is the Word of God to us and to them. If it does not play out this way in the earth, then God shall become known as the Great Liar, who made promises he failed to keep.

Dt 26:18-19 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his commandments;
And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken

It is absurdly foolish to dismiss these declarations as fulfilled, or somehow figurative, They literal promises.

It is not the same for the secret of the Body of Christ, wherein the Gentile and Jew are EQUAL in rule and reign with Christ in the HEAVENS, not on earth with Israel. It is spiritual, and not of the earth. This too is the Word of God to us and to them.

Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Eph 3:5-6 which, in different/other generations, is not made known to the sons of *=humanity as it was now revealed to His *holy apostles and prophets): in spirit That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The entirety of Paul's gospel is one of spiritual and heavenly expectation and activitiy. It is not an earthly promise, and there is no wall of separation as there will be during the reign of Christ on earth, when His Kingdom comes. The Twelve Apostles have thrones of judgment promised to them. Should that not happen, then God lied.

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His promise to return is certain, and it will be in the same form as before He left. It is a return to the earth.

We will not see Him this way, we will meet Him in clouds, above the earth, or else Paul is lying.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Whom shall I believe?

RichardBurger · Jul 14, 2010

I found this article a while back and it about the two futures of the people of God. I believe most of it and offer it for concideration.

This study is set up in three sections;

1. GOD'S PLAN ON THE EARTH,
2. GOD'S PLAN IN THE HEAVENS,
3. THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S PLAN.

Written by Tracy Plessinger:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God presents his creative act as an act that produced a divided universe, a universe that consists of two parts, the heaven, and the earth. In order to fully understand God's plan we must understand how that plan will be carried out in both of these areas.

GOD'S PLAN ON THE EARTH

As we continue in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, we immediately see where God's plan is focused initially.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14,15

It is clear that the creation described in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the earth. It is the earth that is said to be "without form, and void". It is the earth that man is told to "replenish" and "subdue". Even the lights that God created in heaven were for the purpose of giving light "upon the earth".

After the flood, God gave similar instructions to Noah and his sons.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:1

With the setting aside of Abraham to begin the formation of the nation of Israel, we see that the focus was still on the earth.

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3

The singular message of the prophets is the establishment of God's righteous rule and reign on a renewed earth.

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. Isaiah 35:1

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Isaiah 60:1-3

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. . . . And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:35,44

Notice that Isaiah points to the wonderful utopian conditions on the renewed earth and how the Gentile nations will flow into that blessing. Daniel emphasizes the fact that the "God of heaven" will establish a kingdom that fills "the whole earth". These passages are typical of the message that the prophets brought to the nation of Israel. They were continuing God's focus on reestablishing His authority on the earthly part of His creation.

The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the twelve apostles continued the prophetic focus on the earth.

Christ was presented to Israel as the rightful heir to the earthly throne of David.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

Christ taught His disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to the earth.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:9,10

The apostles tied their message and its returning, triumphant Messiah to the fulfillment of the prophetic Scriptures.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

All of the facts above show us that during the time frame covered from Genesis 1:2 to about Acts 9, the focus of God's message was on the earth.

GOD'S PLAN IN THE HEAVENS

In the ninth chapter of Acts we see a significant change begin to take place as Jesus Christ speaks from heaven to a man who would become the Apostle of/to the Gentiles.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was from Jesus. The setting aside of Paul, by Jesus, and the formation of the "Body of Christ" marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the "Body of Christ" is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

Since God's new plan of salvation was not known until He (God) revealed it to Paul, the Body of Christ is ministering (making it known) to beings in heavenly places.

to the intent that """now""" the manifold wisdom of God might be ""made known by the Church"" TO THE principalities and powers in the heavenly places, Ephesians 3:10 (see also Eph 6:12 on next page)

The Body of Christ has, as its head, a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10

The Body of Christ is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.

For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:20,21

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I Thessalonians 4:16-18

Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was/is for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven, not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God's purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to, and through, the Apostle Paul.

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:25,26

Notice that Paul says that the information he is preaching was "kept secret since the world began". This is in marked contrast to Peter's preaching things "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (See Acts 3:21, quoted above.) God's plans concerning the heavens were kept secret until revealed to, and through, the Apostle Paul.

These facts show us that the truth of God's plan being fulfilled in heaven, the truth under which we operate today, is found exclusively in the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Church, the Body of Christ. We must go to those writings to understand how God will fulfill His purpose in heaven, and how we should live based on our place in that heavenly plan.

THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S PLAN

We have already seen that in the book of Ephesians God reveals the fulfillment of His plan in eternity future, both on the earth and in heaven, as all things are gathered "together in one . . . in Christ". As God closes out His revelation to man we see that He has in fact brought everything full circle.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

God's one eternal plan will be fulfilled, both in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ will be honored and glorified in all the universe.

The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of God's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out that plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

Streetsweeper · Jul 14, 2010

fivesense said:
If it does not play out this way in the earth, then God shall become known as the Great Liar, who made promises he failed to keep.

Or, if does not play out this way, it may be there are some Christians who will realise their efforts to divide God's word, and God's people, and God's world were based on an erroneously fragmented message.

Never divide God's word, as might be interpreted from the post-medieval idiom of some translations of 2 Timothy 2:15. If one seeks to be one approved, a worker ..... rightly handling the word of truth, then a better guide would be to always seek to integrate and reconcile.

While some people suggest "The separation between the Jewish ecclesia and the followers of Paul are as separate and distinct as day and night", such a view can only be achieved with confetti scripture. Clearly people hold dearly to the theology so carefully established with scissors, razors, tape and glue - No doubt the foundational cut and paste edting tools we now accept in daily computer manipulations found great devotion, if not addiction among the cut and paste fraternity.

It does seem plausible that the the customary showering of bride and groom with grains to bless their union with the hope of a fertile relationship, found an easy exchange in more recent eras with the use of confetti. With so much biblical dissection it seems invetiable that a mountain of collateral text will fall to floor of the ardent dispensational apprentice.

What great relief it must have been for such people to realise that rather than burning God's residual message, it could be usefully employed in the blessing of newly wedded couples. Indeed what better blessing could a happy couple receive than to be showered with God's word.

It puzzles me that the slice and dice brigade, in their efforts to improve God's word, never seem to stop and ask why the Bible is the way it is. Of course we all accept Pauls exhortation to Timothy as something we should hold of equal importance in our own lives.

[sup]15[/sup]Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed,
rightly handling the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15

It seems strange therefore that such great efforts have gone into negating the very clear assurance we have from Paul that we are all one people in Christ.

[sup]27[/sup]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [sup]28[/sup]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [sup]29[/sup]And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Galations 3:27-29

If the Lord Himself sees no distinction in our ethnic heritage why should we persist with such notions. Rather we should all rejoice in recognising that all who are Christ's can look forward to receiving that promise given to Abraham whose offspring we are.

Integrate and Reconcile
Don't Slice and Dice

bling · Jul 14, 2010

fivesense said:
Bling, it is good that you are taking time to be concerned with this issue.
You are confusing two different gospels and operations of God. They are not the same. One is earthly and made of flesh, the other is heavenly and is spirit.

The promises of God to Israel through Messiah and the Prophets will come to pass. It never has and never will contain equal reign and rule with the Gentile nations. The nations always were and always will be subserviant to Israel in God's Kingdom on earth, This is the Word of God to us and to them. If it does not play out this way in the earth, then God shall become known as the Great Liar, who made promises he failed to keep.

Dt 26:18-19 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that [thou] shouldest keep all his commandments;
And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken

It is absurdly foolish to dismiss these declarations as fulfilled, or somehow figurative, They literal promises.

It is not the same for the secret of the Body of Christ, wherein the Gentile and Jew are EQUAL in rule and reign with Christ in the HEAVENS, not on earth with Israel. It is spiritual, and not of the earth. This too is the Word of God to us and to them.

Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Eph 3:5-6 which, in different/other generations, is not made known to the sons of *=humanity as it was now revealed to His *holy apostles and prophets): in spirit That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The entirety of Paul's gospel is one of spiritual and heavenly expectation and activitiy. It is not an earthly promise, and there is no wall of separation as there will be during the reign of Christ on earth, when His Kingdom comes. The Twelve Apostles have thrones of judgment promised to them. Should that not happen, then God lied.

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His promise to return is certain, and it will be in the same form as before He left. It is a return to the earth.

We will not see Him this way, we will meet Him in clouds, above the earth, or else Paul is lying.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Whom shall I believe?

You take scripture literally that fits your theology and symbolically if it does not.
Jesus was in a new physical body when he went up into the clouds and will return in like body from the clouds, but it does not say to walk again on earth or even touch the ground since we meet Him in the air. That suggest we meet him in the air to go to heaven and not to go up and come down again. Where does it say we meet him in the air to return to earth?

Streetsweeper used and I agree this shows who the descendents of Abraham truly are: 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.Galations 3:27-29

RichardBurger said:
I found this article a while back and it about the two futures of the people of God. I believe most of it and offer it for concideration.

This study is set up in three sections;

1. GOD'S PLAN ON THE EARTH,
2. GOD'S PLAN IN THE HEAVENS,
3. THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S PLAN.

Written by Tracy Plessinger:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God presents his creative act as an act that produced a divided universe, a universe that consists of two parts, the heaven, and the earth. In order to fully understand God's plan we must understand how that plan will be carried out in both of these areas.

GOD'S PLAN ON THE EARTH

As we continue in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, we immediately see where God's plan is focused initially.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14,15

It is clear that the creation described in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the earth. It is the earth that is said to be "without form, and void". It is the earth that man is told to "replenish" and "subdue". Even the lights that God created in heaven were for the purpose of giving light "upon the earth".

After the flood, God gave similar instructions to Noah and his sons.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:1

With the setting aside of Abraham to begin the formation of the nation of Israel, we see that the focus was still on the earth.

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3

The singular message of the prophets is the establishment of God's righteous rule and reign on a renewed earth.

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. Isaiah 35:1

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Isaiah 60:1-3

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. . . . And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:35,44

Notice that Isaiah points to the wonderful utopian conditions on the renewed earth and how the Gentile nations will flow into that blessing. Daniel emphasizes the fact that the "God of heaven" will establish a kingdom that fills "the whole earth". These passages are typical of the message that the prophets brought to the nation of Israel. They were continuing God's focus on reestablishing His authority on the earthly part of His creation.

The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the twelve apostles continued the prophetic focus on the earth.

Christ was presented to Israel as the rightful heir to the earthly throne of David.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

Christ taught His disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to the earth.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:9,10

The apostles tied their message and its returning, triumphant Messiah to the fulfillment of the prophetic Scriptures.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

All of the facts above show us that during the time frame covered from Genesis 1:2 to about Acts 9, the focus of God's message was on the earth.

GOD'S PLAN IN THE HEAVENS

In the ninth chapter of Acts we see a significant change begin to take place as Jesus Christ speaks from heaven to a man who would become the Apostle of/to the Gentiles.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was from Jesus. The setting aside of Paul, by Jesus, and the formation of the "Body of Christ" marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the "Body of Christ" is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

Since God's new plan of salvation was not known until He (God) revealed it to Paul, the Body of Christ is ministering (making it known) to beings in heavenly places.

to the intent that """now""" the manifold wisdom of God might be ""made known by the Church"" TO THE principalities and powers in the heavenly places, Ephesians 3:10 (see also Eph 6:12 on next page)

The Body of Christ has, as its head, a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10

The Body of Christ is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.

For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:20,21

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I Thessalonians 4:16-18

Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was/is for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven, not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God's purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to, and through, the Apostle Paul.

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:25,26

Notice that Paul says that the information he is preaching was "kept secret since the world began". This is in marked contrast to Peter's preaching things "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (See Acts 3:21, quoted above.) God's plans concerning the heavens were kept secret until revealed to, and through, the Apostle Paul.

These facts show us that the truth of God's plan being fulfilled in heaven, the truth under which we operate today, is found exclusively in the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Church, the Body of Christ. We must go to those writings to understand how God will fulfill His purpose in heaven, and how we should live based on our place in that heavenly plan.

THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S PLAN

We have already seen that in the book of Ephesians God reveals the fulfillment of His plan in eternity future, both on the earth and in heaven, as all things are gathered "together in one . . . in Christ". As God closes out His revelation to man we see that He has in fact brought everything full circle.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

God's one eternal plan will be fulfilled, both in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ will be honored and glorified in all the universe.

The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of God's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out that plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

What doe you see as man's eaerthly objective?
What is God's objective as it relates to man?
Why did God make man in the first place?

Paul · Jul 14, 2010

RichardBurger said:
I found this article a while back and it about the two futures of the people of God. I believe most of it and offer it for concideration.

This study is set up in three sections;

1. GOD'S PLAN ON THE EARTH,
2. GOD'S PLAN IN THE HEAVENS,
3. THE FULFILMENT OF GOD'S PLAN.

Written by Tracy Plessinger:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
...The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of God's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out that plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

RichardBurger, Please post the link to this articles.

The Change To The Gospel

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