Understanding the Olivet Discourse

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,884
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Sorry, but the 7 vials do not happen until the end of Satan's 42 months. They are poured out while the 2 witnesses lay on the streets of Jerusalem for 3.5 days. The final ones bring 10 kings for the 1 hour battle about 11 hours after the 2 witnesses return to heaven. This is the battle of Armageddon.

We are patiently waiting the the 4th seal to open.

Well I see that you have it all screwed up then. No need for any further comment. You seem to believe in an imminent return of Christ as Armageddon will occur in around 25 years time in our future and not at the end of the Millennium Age, in over 1,000 + years from now.

Oh well, we will have to wait for your scenario to play out then. Would you like to suggest an approximate time frame for your understanding then?
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,656
2,519
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since it is not a secret event that seems like a malicious attack on God's Word. Can you define the rapture in Revelation?

The simple fact that Jesus says He is coming is proof of a rapture, because it happens the first time He appears.

John Nelson Darby in the 1830's is the one who came up with that 'secret' idea for the false pre-trib rapture theory. It's later proponents dropped that idea somewhat that Jesus would come in 'secret' to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation. So I didn't make that up.

Thus my point, there is NO WAY that Christ's coming to gather His Church is going to be a secret coming, and His Word verifies this, especially in Rev.1 that all eyes will see Him, including those who pierced Him.

And the argument is not whether or not there is a 'rapture', which is a word derived from the Latin translation of Greek harpazo as KJV "caught up". The argument is the 'timing'... of the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4. Pretribulationalism says Jesus comes to gather His Church PRIOR... to the great tribulation. But Lord Jesus said He will come AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). So those who disagree with this are not arguing with me, they arguing with what Lord Jesus Himself declared.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well I see that you have it all screwed up then. No need for any further comment. You seem to believe in an imminent return of Christ as Armageddon will occur in around 25 years time in our future and not at the end of the Millennium Age, in over 1,000 + years from now.

Oh well, we will have to wait for your scenario to play out then. Would you like to suggest an approximate time frame for your understanding then?
Where do you get 25 years? Yes the 4th seal could start at any time. How can reading Revelation in order, as it was written be screwed up? I think John would be surprised you think he screwed up the end days.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John Nelson Darby in the 1830's is the one who came up with that 'secret' idea for the false pre-trib rapture theory. It's later proponents dropped that idea somewhat that Jesus would come in 'secret' to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation. So I didn't make that up.

Thus my point, there is NO WAY that Christ's coming to gather His Church is going to be a secret coming, and His Word verifies this, especially in Rev.1 that all eyes will see Him, including those who pierced Him.

And the argument is not whether or not there is a 'rapture', which is a word derived from the Latin translation of Greek harpazo as KJV "caught up". The argument is the 'timing'... of the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4. Pretribulationalism says Jesus comes to gather His Church PRIOR... to the great tribulation. But Lord Jesus said He will come AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). So those who disagree with this are not arguing with me, they arguing with what Lord Jesus Himself declared.
He said tribulation of those days, generic tribulation we face each year in the persecuted church. Christians are still martyred each month. Jesus did not say after Satan's 42 months. How great tribulation wise to you is the 4th seal? If it happened in weeks, not even months? The World Wars lasted almost decades. Is that enough tribulation? The tribulation is the final harvest and it is carried out by the Lamb physically on earth. The death burial and resurrection was at the end of the first ministry on earth. The Second Coming is not at the end of the next 3.5 years of ministry. The Second Coming happens to place the Lamb back on the earth to carry out the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders.

The Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon at the end of Satan's 42 months. I place Satan's 42 months between April 2023 and October 2027. Monday of Yom Kippur would be the day after Armageddon, and the first day of the Millennium. The Lamb is not on earth during Satan's 42 months. Only two male witnesses have to put up with Satan and his worshippers. Or they have to put up with the 2 witnesses. They rejoice and send each other gifts, when they lay as dead on the street in Jerusalem.

I am not sure why people keep mentioning Darby and secrets. I never did. Why can't people get it that Christ is coming and will be here during the Trumpets and Thunders? It is the separation of the sheep and goats. It is the time of fulfillment that Jesus preached in the Gospels. All those parables will be finished and completed by Christ Himself. And the presence of God on the throne will be here as a witness as well.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,884
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well I see that you have it all screwed up then. No need for any further comment. You seem to believe in an imminent return of Christ as Armageddon will occur in around 25 years time in our future and not at the end of the Millennium Age, in over 1,000 + years from now.

Oh well, we will have to wait for your scenario to play out then. Would you like to suggest an approximate time frame for your understanding then?
Where do you get 25 years? Yes the 4th seal could start at any time. How can reading Revelation in order, as it was written be screwed up? I think John would be surprised you think he screwed up the end days.

Matt 24:32 confirms within the limits of knowing the lengths of the various seasons when the end of this present age will occur and when the Judgement of the wicked heaven hosts and the kings of the earth will take place at Armageddon.

As for screwing up your understanding of the Book of Revelation is concerned, it is all tied up in your interpretation of how the book has been written and that the Book of Revelation has recorded all the various prophecies in strictly chronological order. This assumption on your part is further from the truth than you can imagine. I would be surprised if John would be concerned with my understanding of the end times, but with regards to your understanding, I would think that he would be distressed with that.

Shalom
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matt 24:32 confirms within the limits of knowing the lengths of the various seasons when the end of this present age will occur and when the Judgement of the wicked heaven hosts and the kings of the earth will take place at Armageddon.

As for screwing up your understanding of the Book of Revelation is concerned, it is all tied up in your interpretation of how the book has been written and that the Book of Revelation has recorded all the various prophecies in strictly chronological order. This assumption on your part is further from the truth than you can imagine. I would be surprised if John would be concerned with my understanding of the end times, but with regards to your understanding, I would think that he would be distressed with that.

Shalom
Why would John not write what he saw in the order he witnessed them? There is no indication that John put them down in alphabetical order. There is no indication that he was purposely trying to mislead.

The only issue is that modern humans have concocted their own private interpretation to fit with their own private theology. Theology has turned Revelation inside out, and up and down, each in their own feel good method, to prove a point. Since there are several competing views, and millions of private interpretations, I think I will just stick to the way John presents things, and not try to correct John in any way.

Those who say Revelation is not in chronological order are correcting John. I am not sure why this truth is not obvious to those who claim John got it out of chronological sequence. John does not contradict the Olivet Discourse nor any of the other NT authors. People want to see their theology fit, and will make up excuses like Revelation is not in chronological order.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,884
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Why would John not write what he saw in the order he witnessed them? There is no indication that John put them down in alphabetical order. There is no indication that he was purposely trying to mislead.

I agree, John recorded what he saw in the order that he saw the events unfold, however, what is not clear is the direction in time that John saw the events. Was John being taken forwards or backwards in time for the seven Bowl events?

When I consider the Rev 16 chapter, I understand that John was being taken backwards in time as he recorded the Bowl Judgements and not forwards in time as you are claiming. This is a matter of understanding and interpretation of the 16th chapter of Revelation. You have a particular understanding and interpretation which takes no account of when all of the events described in the Book of Revelations occur.

Now the five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are judged and are kept alive for many days in a prison, i.e. the Bottomless Pit, with the judged Kings of the earth who at the time of the judgement had recently completed the trampling of God's sanctuary in Jerusalem and His Earthly Hosts, i.e. the Israelites, and they all go into the Bottomless Pit along with Satan.

We also have a difference in our understanding of the Greek word "seismos" which unfortunately has been translated into English as "earthquake" but from my study, I believe that it should have been translated into the English word "turmoil" which occurs during wars and fighting between various people groups and its use in the Book of Revelation certainly reflects "turmoil" amongst the people rather than "earthquakes" within the earth's crust. Yes, "seismos" is used to describe "great turmoil" within the people involves in the respective events, and the description of the respective events also describe that the ground had shaken around the same time as the turmoil occurred amongst the people.

Let me give an example of how the the poor translation of the Greek root word "seismos" has impacted our understanding of what really happened in the respective recorded events where the Greek word is found in the New Testament: -

Revelation 11:11-14: - The Witnesses Resurrected

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake/great turmoil, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake/turmoil seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.​

Our respective interpretations and subsequent understanding of the source Greek Texts from which our English Translations have been grafted, have certainly many errors into our present day understandings of the scriptures.

Now you are suggesting that your understanding of the Scriptures is infallible, but I am suggesting that it is you have accepted a particular forced understanding which does not exist within the source texted, as being the correct way of understanding the scriptures. The same is also true for your claim that all of the Book of Revelation has been written as a chronological recorded of End Time events.

I have a question for you to ponder: - What time frame is the First Bowl judgements indicating? Does the First Bowl Judgement occur at the beginning of the Millennium Age or towards the very end of the Millennium Age during the little while period?

I look forward to your rebuttal on this question as I see that the first Bowl judgement can only happen after the the end of Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation.

Shalom
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,656
2,519
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He said tribulation of those days, generic tribulation we face each year in the persecuted church. Christians are still martyred each month. Jesus did not say after Satan's 42 months. How great tribulation wise to you is the 4th seal? If it happened in weeks, not even months? The World Wars lasted almost decades. Is that enough tribulation? The tribulation is the final harvest and it is carried out by the Lamb physically on earth. The death burial and resurrection was at the end of the first ministry on earth. The Second Coming is not at the end of the next 3.5 years of ministry. The Second Coming happens to place the Lamb back on the earth to carry out the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders.

The idea of a 'generic' tribulation is man's idea, not written in God's Word. The time of "great tribulation" Jesus showed was first prophesied of in Daniel 12:1-2 along with a time of trouble for the end, just prior to the resurrection at the end of the world.

The Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon at the end of Satan's 42 months. I place Satan's 42 months between April 2023 and October 2027.

Sorry, but you are trying to set a date for Christ's return when no man knows the specific day, as written. That is not proper to do.

On the 6th Vial per Revelation 16:15 Jesus warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and that metaphor is the one He gave in His Olivet discourse about the day of His coming and gathering of His saints. It is also a metaphor Paul and Peter used to mark the "day of the Lord". On the 7th Vial is the next event with Armageddon is what Rev.16 shows.
 

Douggg

Active Member
Nov 26, 2020
586
30
28
75
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've spent many years on this, and now that I feel I finally am at peace with it, nobody believes me! My views conform to historic beliefs, and is not my personal brain child. We are not to stand out in a crowd, but to glorify Christ. So this isn't an effort at grandstanding. I just want to help those who are frustrated, as I used to be, and give them the benefit of my experiences.

The OD is largely focused on the Jewish People and on the 70 AD event, in which the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Roman Army. Jesus warned his Disciples to flee when they saw the "vultures gather." When the pagan Army "stood in the holy place," it was time to pack up quickly and run. If they waited too long, they would have to leave all their things behind!

Against this backdrop the Disciples asked Jesus about his 2nd Coming. When would the Kingdom come? If the Jewish temple is to be destroyed, how can the Jewish Hope be fulfilled? How can Israel be regathered?

Jesus' answer was that times and seasons were the domain of God, but that immediate repentance and a turn to righteousness is the answer in all generations. In his particular generation, the Jewish People had fallen away, and would be destroyed in that generation. The fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD would lead to a "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, the "Jewish Diaspora," that would last until the end of the age when he would finally Return.

"The OD is largely focused on the Jewish People"


Here is a chart I made of the Olivet discourse, placing the verses where they should go, into three sections of near term, long term, end times.

upload_2020-11-26_18-22-29.jpeg
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The idea of a 'generic' tribulation is man's idea, not written in God's Word. The time of "great tribulation" Jesus showed was first prophesied of in Daniel 12:1-2 along with a time of trouble for the end, just prior to the resurrection at the end of the world.



Sorry, but you are trying to set a date for Christ's return when no man knows the specific day, as written. That is not proper to do.

On the 6th Vial per Revelation 16:15 Jesus warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and that metaphor is the one He gave in His Olivet discourse about the day of His coming and gathering of His saints. It is also a metaphor Paul and Peter used to mark the "day of the Lord". On the 7th Vial is the next event with Armageddon is what Rev.16 shows.
Saying the second coming is at the 6th vial is setting a date. It is preparation of the battle of Armageddon. That is specific. Revelation 16:15 is the rhetorical answer to the rhetorical question in Revelation 6:16-17 in the 6th seal. The 6th seal is not in preparation of any event. There is no prior warning. It just happens.

16 and said to the mountains and rocks,Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

15 (“Look! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their clothes clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly put to shame!”)
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree, John recorded what he saw in the order that he saw the events unfold, however, what is not clear is the direction in time that John saw the events. Was John being taken forwards or backwards in time for the seven Bowl events?

When I consider the Rev 16 chapter, I understand that John was being taken backwards in time as he recorded the Bowl Judgements and not forwards in time as you are claiming. This is a matter of understanding and interpretation of the 16th chapter of Revelation. You have a particular understanding and interpretation which takes no account of when all of the events described in the Book of Revelations occur.

Now the five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are judged and are kept alive for many days in a prison, i.e. the Bottomless Pit, with the judged Kings of the earth who at the time of the judgement had recently completed the trampling of God's sanctuary in Jerusalem and His Earthly Hosts, i.e. the Israelites, and they all go into the Bottomless Pit along with Satan.

We also have a difference in our understanding of the Greek word "seismos" which unfortunately has been translated into English as "earthquake" but from my study, I believe that it should have been translated into the English word "turmoil" which occurs during wars and fighting between various people groups and its use in the Book of Revelation certainly reflects "turmoil" amongst the people rather than "earthquakes" within the earth's crust. Yes, "seismos" is used to describe "great turmoil" within the people involves in the respective events, and the description of the respective events also describe that the ground had shaken around the same time as the turmoil occurred amongst the people.

Let me give an example of how the the poor translation of the Greek root word "seismos" has impacted our understanding of what really happened in the respective recorded events where the Greek word is found in the New Testament: -

Revelation 11:11-14: - The Witnesses Resurrected
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake/great turmoil, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake/turmoil seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.​
Our respective interpretations and subsequent understanding of the source Greek Texts from which our English Translations have been grafted, have certainly many errors into our present day understandings of the scriptures.

Now you are suggesting that your understanding of the Scriptures is infallible, but I am suggesting that it is you have accepted a particular forced understanding which does not exist within the source texted, as being the correct way of understanding the scriptures. The same is also true for your claim that all of the Book of Revelation has been written as a chronological recorded of End Time events.

I have a question for you to ponder: - What time frame is the First Bowl judgements indicating? Does the First Bowl Judgement occur at the beginning of the Millennium Age or towards the very end of the Millennium Age during the little while period?

I look forward to your rebuttal on this question as I see that the first Bowl judgement can only happen after the the end of Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation.

Shalom
Revelation 16:18-19 is key.

18 There were flashes of lightning, voices and peals of thunder; and there was a massive earthquake, such as has never occurred since mankind has been on earth, so violent was the earthquake.
19 The great city was split into three parts, the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Bavel the Great and made her drink the wine from the cup of his raging fury.


Revelation 11:11-13

11 But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them, they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then the two heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.
13 In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were awestruck and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11 gives the last interjection of a side story that ends the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. There are 3 side plots. 2 in chapter 11, the measure of the temple and the time of the Gentiles, and the two witnesses. Both a 42 month period. Chapter 12 places Satan into the 42 month narrative. The 7th Trumpet includes the whole 42 month period. Chapter 13 is the 42 month period.

One more side note:
The 7th Trumpet is Daniel's week of days. It is the celebration at the end of the Lamb's earthly ministry with the 144k. This earthly ministry takes place during the Trumpets and Thunders. The celebration was supposed to be one week, Sunday to Sunday. This is the literal week that gets split. That is why the 7th Trumpet goes for 42 more months. In chapter 13 the first beast is allowed to "defeat" the 144k and Christ. It is metaphorical. God allows Satan time. Christ and the 144k withdraw to the sea of glass. (To watch what happens on earth.) Only the two witnesses remain. At the end, they are "killed" and the verses above say they lay dead for 3.5 days. No one touches their bodies. This is the last 3.5 days of the week in which the 7th Trumpet is still sounding. Now to the 7 vials.

The end of the 42 months came. God kept a Covenant with the many. Satan was allowed exactly 42 months on some condition that split the week in half. Since the church was responsible leading up to the Second Coming, something about the church changed history. Otherwise the week would remain whole. The armies would still gather at Armageddon and it would be the end of Adam's flesh and blood on the earth. All humanity would be dead. This would render the 7 vials mute. Or they would still be poured out the last 3.5 days of the week even if the week was left whole, and not split.

All I see the vials as being, is for those last humans who refuse to follow God, and worship Satan. I think Revelation 14 is the final event if the week is left whole. If there is a split week, then we move to chapters 15, 16, and 19. 17 and 18 are interjections explaining Babylon and the harlot. The vials are similar to the plagues of Egypt when Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Satan and those with the mark have hardened their hearts and God pours out His wrath on them. And it is the last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet week. God keeps His side of the Covenant and Satan gets exactly 42 months; no more, no less. At the end of those days, God calls his two witnesses up into the sky, there is the destruction, and the armies left on earth gather for the battle of Armageddon. I think that it will be one hour on a Sunday from 5 pm to 6pm. Christ in the battle of Armageddon is not the Second Coming and not really a third coming. God kept His Covenant with Satan and Satan got 42 months. No interference from the Lamb or the 144k. Christ was already on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders and the Second Coming was already being celebrated by the 7th Trumpet prior to Satan's brief interruption.

Moving on to the Millennium seems more pertinent. This is a true Lord's Day set apart as holy unto God. Sorry I do not make a bigger deal out of the vials. They are just not that important, nor signs any one should be looking forward to. Not even the two witnesses laying dead will be affected, as they are dead. The vials are short lasting, only 3.5 days at the most.

I know some claim that believers will still be walking around. I see no point. As seen in chapter 11, even the two witnesses are dead. Any believers would have had their head chopped off to avoid getting the mark. Those with the mark are dead people walking. They are not even found in the Lamb's book of life. Between the vials and the battle of Armageddon, all flesh will die. After the battle of Armageddon from 6pm to 6am God will have burned up the old and completely made the earth liveable again with a new start, holy and free from Adam's sin and disobedience to God. Most will disagree, and claim this is all made up. There is still hope even in God's long suffering and judgment against sin and wickedness.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,717
2,415
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"The OD is largely focused on the Jewish People"


Here is a chart I made of the Olivet discourse, placing the verses where they should go, into three sections of near term, long term, end times.

View attachment 11777

Thank you. My own view is that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army's desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Actually, the Disciples were called upon to recognize that it was coming from about 66 AD. The destruction itself took place in 70 AD, and some years later.

This destruction of the temple presaged a tremendous tribulation the Jewish People would experience throughout the rest of the age, until Christ comes to separate the rebellious out from among the faithful. Many Jews will be brought back to God at Jesus' Return, in my eschatology.

In saying these things Jesus was acting as a prophet to the Jewish People, just like the OT Prophets. But he was also acting as our great high priest of the New Covenant and Shepherd, warning his Church that they would, in their own country, be rejected as he had been rejected, and would suffer somewhat in the punishment visited upon their country. It would be time to escape, since the punishment was falling upon their rebellious countrymen, and not specifically to punish them!
 

Douggg

Active Member
Nov 26, 2020
586
30
28
75
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thank you. My own view is that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army's desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Actually, the Disciples were called upon to recognize that it was coming from about 66 AD. The destruction itself took place in 70 AD, and some years later.
Randy,

The Luke 21:20-24 event ends with the Jews being lead away captives into the nations v24.

Differently, in Matthew 24:14-31, is after the gospel has been preached to all nations, and ends with all the Jews being gathered back to the land of Israel. v31 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28.

Luke 21:20-24 is the 70 AD - 135 AD event(s)

Matthew 24:15-31 is end times, following Gog/Magog. The abomination of desolation fits in that 7 years following Gog/Magog, end times.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,717
2,415
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Randy,

The Luke 21:20-24 event ends with the Jews being lead away captives into the nations v24.

Differently, in Matthew 24:14-31, is after the gospel has been preached to all nations, and ends with all the Jews being gathered back to the land of Israel. v31 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28.

Luke 21:20-24 is the 70 AD - 135 AD event(s)

Matthew 24:15-31 is end times, following Gog/Magog. The abomination of desolation fits in that 7 years following Gog/Magog, end times.

I've had discussions elsewhere over this very same point, and don't always get anywhere. I used to hold to your position, but it never really made sense to me. We should compare the synoptic versions of this passage more than hope to conflate it with prophecies elsewhere in the Bible. After many, many years I changed my view to fit what I see are the facts. I compared every element of each versions and discovered that they do indeed fit together, but not in the way I was taught.

There is this compulsion to bring future prophecy into the Olivet Discourse, in order to speculate over prophecies yet to be fulfilled. After all, Jesus explicitly mentions his 2nd Coming in this Discourse!

But if you'll notice, the emphasis of the Discourse is not on the 2nd Coming as much as on how that was to affect the generation of Jewish people that lived at that time. Jesus was predicting the fall of Jerusalem, just as Jeremiah had done before him when the Babylonians were coming. Only this time, it would be the Romans that would come.

It was a prophecy of judgment, because the Jewish people had become wayward, and would reject their own Messiah. Daniel had predicted that Messiah would be "cut off" in Dan 9.26. The fall of Jerusalem would be God's judgment due to the terrible spiritual condition of the Jewish People. And Jesus wanted his disciples to escape from it.

The disciples were confused, and wanted to know why Jesus wouldn't be ushering in the Kingdom of God? Why would God, instead, bring judgment to Israel? Jesus explained that only some would follow him, and that most would not. Therefore, Jerusalem would be destroyed, taking with it the Jewish religion. And the Jewish People would be sent out into exile across the earth, into all nations.

At the end of this "great tribulation," Israel would be restored through judgment. Like Noah scarcely escaped, so many would be destroyed and few would escape.

Many think this "great tribulation" is for Christians. But Jesus specifically applied it to Israel as a judgment, and said it would last throughout the age until the coming of the Kingdom of God. Christians would suffer during this time, because all nations, like Israel, would rebel against God. Christians would be treated as the world treats God.

But in the end, the Kingdom of God will come, and Christians will be appointed overseers, judging the world in the Kingdom Age. Or so I believe.

So I see the Abomination of Desolation as only the beginning of a long era of Great Tribulation for the Jewish People, in which Christians endure in their faith despite a variety of judgments taking place in the world. The Antichrist is talked about in Dan 7 and in Rev 13, which is entirely different from the AoD, which is mentioned in Dan 9.27. Just my view, brother! :)
 

Douggg

Active Member
Nov 26, 2020
586
30
28
75
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So I see the Abomination of Desolation as only the beginning of a long era of Great Tribulation for the Jewish People, in which Christians endure in their faith despite a variety of judgments taking place in the world. The Antichrist is talked about in Dan 7 and in Rev 13, which is entirely different from the AoD, which is mentioned in Dan 9.27. Just my view, brother!
Randy, I would say for Matthew 24, start with Matthew 24:30 and work backwards to Matthew 24:14.

But really, first use this as the infallible timline framework for the end times. Everything in Matthew 24:15-31 must fit within this timeline framework.

upload_2020-11-27_19-55-12.jpeg
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,884
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
One more side note:

. . . . .

I do not think I have to respond to your thoughts on how things will unfold. You rebuttal demonstrated that your understanding is suspect in most aspects.

Shalom
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of course that's a blatant lie. And I never said Jesus' 2nd coming was on the 6th Vial anyway! You are such a LIAR.
I never said you did. If you are not post trib, why are you accusing me of lying? The 6th vial is the point, the "thief in the night" phrase is used. Post trib theology places the Second Coming at that point. It is the insertion of Revelation 19:11

Wow, replying to a post that mentions the 6th seal makes me a liar?
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,656
2,519
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I never said you did. If you are not post trib, why are you accusing me of lying? The 6th vial is the point, the "thief in the night" phrase is used. Post trib theology places the Second Coming at that point. It is the insertion of Revelation 19:11

Wow, replying to a post that mentions the 6th seal makes me a liar?

In your post #210 you wrongly insinuated that I said this...

You said:
"Saying the second coming is at the 6th vial is setting a date."

I never said Jesus comes on the 6th vial, and I certainly did not set a date. So you made up a lie. And now because you refuse to admit you said that, you are now telling another lie.'

But if you have a memory problem, and can't recall what you say from one minute to the next, then I can forgive that. But not a blatant trying to put words in my mouth!
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,401
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In your post #210 you wrongly insinuated that I said this...



I never said Jesus comes on the 6th vial, and I certainly did not set a date. So you made up a lie. And now because you refuse to admit you said that, you are now telling another lie.'

But if you have a memory problem, and can't recall what you say from one minute to the next, then I can forgive that. But not a blatant trying to put words in my mouth!
So pointing out the false idea of post trib is lying? I was not putting words in your mouth, unless you were offended and thought that. I was pointing out the general principle of post trib thought. Since you keep calling me a liar, if the truth fits, own up to it, instead of calling other posters liars.

Are you saying you were not accusing others of setting dates:

The idea of a 'generic' tribulation is man's idea, not written in God's Word. The time of "great tribulation" Jesus showed was first prophesied of in Daniel 12:1-2 along with a time of trouble for the end, just prior to the resurrection at the end of the world.

Sorry, but you are trying to set a date for Christ's return when no man knows the specific day, as written. That is not proper to do.

Should that posters be as quick to judge you as you seem to be judging me as a liar?
 
Last edited: