The Fourth beast of Revelation

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Davy

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Given all that is said in Daniel 7, let's get back to Revelation 13 and my question...

"Davy, where is the mouth like a lion located on the beast, that speaks the blasphemies in Revelation 13:5 ? In the beast's tail ? In the beast's feet?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Allow me to simplify even further, where is your mouth located ?

You keep trying to add that 'leaven' idea about a lion's mouth as if it's some secret key hidden in the Scriptures. It's not. It's only an idea you yourself are trying to add to the Scriptures.

Pay attention:

Rev 13:4-6
4 And they worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast (beast kingdom): and they worshipped the beast (Satan), saying, Who is like unto the beast (Satan)? who is able to make war with him (Satan)?

5 And there was given unto him (Satan) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he (Satan) opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
KJV

1. they worship "the dragon", another title for Satan per Revelation 12:9.
2. they worship "the beast", which is yet another title for Satan as beast king in Rev.9 & 11 & 17.
3. Who can make war with Satan, as he has supernatural powers? (only God can, and will, through His Son Jesus Christ).
4. Daniel 7 uses the "little horn" symbol to point to Satan there that will do that blaspheming of Daniel 7:25; Daniel 11 uses the "vile person" symbol for Satan as that same one who exalts himself and blasphemes God.
5. Daniel 7:25 specifically about the "little horn" as Satan is to have power over the saints for, "a time and times and the dividing of time." That means 3.5 years, which is equal to 42 months!
 

MrBebe

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But this is not what the sea means in Rev. 13:1, Thalassa is specifically a reference to sea. It has nothing to do with the depths. Then there is the fact that scripture tells us what the bottomless pit is, which is the lowest parts of Hell, Tartaroo (2 Peter 2:4) and that Angels who fell are chained there.
scripture also tells us that When the key is used to unlock the bottomless pit smoke comes out of the "Pit" , which is Phrear, which means only Pit or well (Revelation 9:1-2), So the bottomless Pit using scripture to interpret scripture has nothing to do with the sea or merely nonexistence.

All this leads to the conclusion that the beast of rev. 13 is not the same as the beast from rev. 17. One rises from the sea, the other from the bottomless pit. One is empowered by Satan, who is the "god of this world" and not chained to the bottomless pit, but will be for a 1000 years, the other is chained in the bottomless pit and is loosed from those chains and is empowered by God to execute Judgment on the harlot for one Hour with ten kings. To join the two is to create confusion as to the identity of the first beast.

The Word Sea, specifically refers to either the Mediterranean or the Red Sea, meaning seas to the west of Israel, The Bottomless pit, Azazel is a place to the east of Israel, thus these give us directions for where these beasts come from and their power. Though both will be worldwide, the first is based in Western culture, and the second in eastern culture, whether that is Islamic or Chinese or something altogether unique i do not know, but at the heart will be the Babylonian religions with the queen of heaven as the harlot.
Good day,

Brother, you ignored the verses that were presented to you that logically link the 1st beast of chap 13 to the beast of chap 17. Those verses together with the numbers of the beasts’ heads and horns are telling that they are one and the same beast just differing in their time settings.

I know that the Greek word “thalassa” in chap 13 is specifically a reference to “sea” and that the Greek word “abussos” in chap 17 means “bottomless pit” but as was said in my previous post the words “bottomless pit” is not what is written in the Aramaic Analysis Page of Revelation 17:8 but “sea” which you also ignored.

In light of the Biblical facts that were presented to you which you ignored, the two figurative words from chapters 13 and 17 that tell where the beast will come out can’t be used as a basis to conclude that there are two distinct beasts each with 7 heads and 10 horns just because they seem to be in disagreement. Instead, why not find figurative meanings from each of them that are not in disagreement?

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-

1Co 13:8-9 Murdock
(8) Love will never cease. But prophesyings will end; and tongues will be silent; and knowledge will vanish. (9) For we know but partially; and we prophesy but partially.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-
 

MrBebe

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Puzzling how something so obvious can be so elusive. Consider the word "oil". It could mean some type of anointing; or cooking as with Elisha and the widow; or medicinal; or perfume. But as soon as you add the depiction of a crankshaft and pistons, the context becomes abundantly clear.

And so too with the various aspects in Rev. 13 & 17, given the depictions in Dan. 2 & 7:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "divided kingdom"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "TIGER"), China
-- 8. Dreadful, United Nations​

And thus we should understand why Rev. 12 says SEVEN Diadems, but Rev. 13 says TEN Diadems; WHICH nation is "mortally wounded" and HOW it's "mortally wounded"; WHY the LION is the MOUTH; WHY the LEOPARD (actually a "TIGER") is the BODY; and WHY the BEAR is the FEET; and why the U.N. "was and is not", -- among other things.

So now we should know what type of "oil" and needn't speculate as to it's significance, -- etc.

Bobby Jo
Good day,

Your analogy with an “oil” of an obvious puzzling thing but elusive is nice and true and it should be always applied in our studies.

I agree only on some of the kingdoms/nations on the list you presented.

“WHY the LION is the MOUTH; WHY the LEOPARD (actually a "TIGER") is the BODY; and WHY the BEAR is the FEET” – not yet studied. Can you share a thought on these?

Here’s how I understand the 7 heads of Rev 17 as “kings” and as “mountains” based on the Bilble only:

Revelation 17:8
PAST: ----The beast that thou sawest was
PRESENT: and is not
FUTURE: -and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition

Revelation 17:11
PAST: -----And the beast that was
PRESENT: and is not
FUTURE: -even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition

These two verses both refer to the beast itself in its past, present, and future stages but there is something more in the future stage of verse 11; the beast is understood to be on its 7th head just like in verse 8, but the verse says “it is an eight and of the seven” (or seventh). This eight thing can’t be the head as “king” as per Revelation 17 because it is the seventh according to v10. But this head is an eight if we will look at this coming out of the beast in relation to the beasts of Daniel 7 and their heads.

There are four beasts in Daniel 7. Each of these beasts or their heads represents kingdom or empire. Now, notice the 4th beast:

(Dan 7:7 KJV) After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

This beast has ten horns too! So, this means that this 4th beast is most probably the beast that will come out in Revelation 17 verses 8 and 11 (from the bottomless pit). But if we will count the heads of the beasts in Daniel 7, it will give us only 7 heads.

1) Lion-------1 head
2) Bear ------1 head
3) Leopard---4 heads
4) 4th Beast--1 head
———————–———
Total----------7 heads

The head of the 4th beast here is apparently the 7th head and not the 8th. But what about the first appearance in the physical world of the beast in Revelation 17 before it became non-existent – the beast that is termed as “was?” If we will include it in our count chronologically, it will be the 7th and the beast that will come out from the bottomless pit will be the 8th! And this 8th thing belongs to the 7th!

It could be in this way the 7 heads are meant to be “mountains” in verse 9. The “7th” mountain (not king) in Revelation 17 represents only the beast that “was” because the beast that “will ascend” (8th mountain) is not yet come and when it comes, it will destroy the whore as judgment to her.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-

1Co 13:8-9 Murdock
(8) Love will never cease. But prophesyings will end; and tongues will be silent; and knowledge will vanish. (9) For we know but partially; and we prophesy but partially.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-
 
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Douggg

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Rev 13:4-6
4 And they worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast (beast kingdom): and they worshipped the beast (Satan), saying, Who is like unto the beast (Satan)? who is able to make war with him (Satan)?

5 And there was given unto him (Satan) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he (Satan) opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
KJV
Satan was never mortally wounded, but healed.

"and they worshipped the beast (not Satan)" . However, it indicates the dragon, Satan, will be worshiped in addition to the beast.

in v4....

1. they worshiped the dragon
2. they worshiped the beast.

in v15...

3. they worship the image of the beast


Satan (the dragon) will incarnate the image of the beast - that's how Satan (the dragon) will be worshiped.
 

Douggg

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Revelation 17:8
PAST: ----The beast that thou sawest was
PRESENT: and is not
FUTURE: -and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition

Revelation 17:11
PAST: -----And the beast that was
PRESENT: and is not
FUTURE: -even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition
was alive, but is not alive, yet is alive.

Revelation 17:11 refers to Revelation 17:8b

(a) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: (the original garden of eden serpent beast, now a disembodied spirit)


(b) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (the end time person, who will be killed, and comes back to life)


The soul of the end times person will be possessed by the spirit of the serpent, during his brief time in hell in Isaiah 14. Then is brought back to life.
 

Douggg

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1) Lion-------1 head
2) Bear ------1 head
3) Leopard---4 heads
4) 4th Beast--1 head
———————–———
Total----------7 heads
Sorry, it doesn't work. King 6 (the 6th head) was ruling at the time of John. There are 6 heads in your group ending with the Leopard - Greek empire.

A Caesar was ruling at the time of John, not one of the Greek kings.

The 7head, kings, are...

Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius

Nero

The end times little horn - king 7.

The beast (the little horn killed because of the transgression of desolation he commits while as the Antichrist, and comes back to life possessed) - king 8.

The person comes into the middle east following Gog/Magog as the little horn/prince who shall come. The Jews will think he is the messiah and is anointed the King of Israel. Around three years goes by and he betrays them
committing the transgression of desolation. Is killed for it, but is brought back to life as the beast, and the ten EU leaders hand their kingdom over to him to dictator.


upload_2020-12-1_5-56-47.png
 
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Davy

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Satan was never mortally wounded, but healed.

Are you trying to put words in my mouth again? Where did I ever say Satan was mortally wounded?

The "deadly wound" per Revelation is upon one of the beast kingdom's 7 heads, which the "seven heads" are "seven mountains".

Why didn't you heed Revelation 17:9 that defines the "seven heads" to be "seven mountains"? Satan is not "seven mountains", that's how confused you are to think that would apply to him instead of his beast kingdom system of Rev.13:1. That's how confused men's doctrines have you, because of your listening to their false assigning of the beast of Rev.13:1 as a person, just to get you off track when this is truly easy to understand as long as one stays with the written Scripture!


TWO BEAST TYPES DESCRIBED IN THESE TWO VERSES:
Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

KJV

That "another beast" is about Satan as the "dragon", and beast king of Rev.17:8, 10, and 11. That is the "man of sin" Paul warned that is coming to sit in the temple of God in Jerusalem and exalt himself as God. That is the pseudochristos of Matthew 24:23-26 that Jesus forewarned to not believe on when others start saying, "Lo, Christ is here, or there."

Notice verse 12 reveals that "another beast" (a 2nd beast), will exercise all the power of the 1st beast before him. Well what 1st beast? The 1st beast mentioned at the start of that Rev.13 Chapter of course! the 1st beast that has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns!

Then "the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" one CANNOT MISS! It's right there in plain English, SHOWING THAT 1ST BEAST IS NOT ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST PERSON, BUT ABOUT HIS KINGDOM SYSTEM THAT HAS SEVEN HEADS!


"and they worshipped the beast (not Satan)" . However, it indicates the dragon, Satan, will be worshiped in addition to the beast.

in v4....

1. they worshiped the dragon
2. they worshiped the beast.

No, it doesn't mean that.

The only reason you believe that is because of men's doctrines you listen to wrongly telling you that Rev.13:1 beast out of the 'sea' is about the Antichrist person, and their using the "false prophet" label of Rev.16 applied to verse Rev.13:11 to get you off track of knowing the "dragon" is the 2nd beast that will work those wonders and miracles in the sight of men!

The deceived will worship the "dragon" (Satan), like it says, and you WILL find other Scripture WITNESS about that false worship of a 'person', a false one, in Matthew 24, Mark 13; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; 1 John 2:18; 2 Corinthians 11; and here in Revelation 13:11-14. But in those same Scriptures you will find NO MENTION of a beast kingdom being worshiped also!


in v15...

3. they worship the image of the beast

So when the historical king of Babylon setup a golden idol image of himself and commanded all to bow to it or be killed, that meant the deceived were not worshiping Nebuchadnezzar as God by that act?


Satan (the dragon) will incarnate the image of the beast - that's how Satan (the dragon) will be worshiped.

No, that Rev.13 passage is not about an idol image literally coming to life. Did the golden idol image of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel's day come to life literally? No, that's the silly stuff of Hollywood movie writers!

The Revelation 13:15 verse is about modern communication technology called VIDEO. A video of someone is a life-like, SPEAKING image of a real person. That verse actually reveals that event could not come to pass until the modern technology of the 20th century came into existence! Same thing when the peoples, and kindreds, and nations that will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying the street in Jerusalem three of one half days prior to their being caught up, HOW will the nations SEE that? It's called SATELLITE technology! Think! Not only does modern science have that tech, but they have HOLOGRAPHIC technology too!
 

Douggg

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Then "the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" one CANNOT MISS! It's right there in plain English, SHOWING THAT 1ST BEAST IS NOT ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST PERSON, BUT ABOUT HIS KINGDOM SYSTEM THAT HAS SEVEN HEADS!
Davy, was Adoph Hitler the head of nazi Germany?
 

Douggg

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No, that Rev.13 passage is not about an idol image literally coming to life. Did the golden idol image of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel's day come to life literally? No, that's the silly stuff of Hollywood movie writers!
Davy, did Aaron's staff become a literal living snake or not, in Exodus 7:9-11?

Was Aaron's staff becoming a snake - a God empowered miracle ?

Was Pharaoh's magicians doing likewise - a Satanic empowered miracle ?
 
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Douggg

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The Revelation 13:15 verse is about modern communication technology called VIDEO. A video of someone is a life-like, SPEAKING image of a real person. That verse actually reveals that event could not come to pass until the modern technology of the 20th century came into existence! Same thing when the peoples, and kindreds, and nations that will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses laying the street in Jerusalem three of one half days prior to their being caught up, HOW will the nations SEE that? It's called SATELLITE technology! Think! Not only does modern science have that tech, but they have HOLOGRAPHIC technology too!

Davy, what is the objective that the false prophet wishes to make to the world regarding the first beast person?

The objective is to convince the world that the first beast person is God - by in the first beast's presence, the false prophet brings the lifeless inert image to life.

The people of the world make the image themselves v14, so they will know it is not by trick technology.

It is copy-cat of God bringing life to a lifeless form of clay, dust from the ground, when God created man and breathed life into him.

What the false prophet does will be a miracle, but it will be a lying miracle because Satan will be behind it. Satan will be exposed for the world to see, when the statue image of the beast is turned to ashes at Jesus's return.






upload_2020-12-1_9-21-8.jpeg
 

David H.

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Instead, why not find figurative meanings from each of them that are not in disagreement?
Because I am a literalist, unless the text denotes a metaphorical interpretation. So Yes, beasts are symbolic, but their origin is not symbolic, but are real origins and the text does not allow for a metaphorical interpretation. In 17:15 when it speaks of waters being nations and languages etc. then there is reason for the metaphor given in the text but not in revelation 13 where it says the beast rises out of the sea. This is the point of this post, you are mixing apples and oranges and coming to confusing conclusions. The beast of rev. 13 literally rises out of the sea, the beast of revelation 17 out of the bottomless pit. Satan is not now nor will he be locked in the bottomless pit until after Armageddon, the fallen angels are locked in chains in the lowest parts of hell, this is scripture interpreting scripture and arriving at a literal common sense conclusion. This second beast is a fallen angel, who unites with the harlot (false religion) and 10 Kings From the east.
 
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Davy

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Davy, did Aaron's staff become a literal living snake or not, in Exodus 7:9-11?

Was Aaron's staff becoming a snake - a God empowered miracle ?

Was Pharaoh's magicians doing likewise - a Satanic empowered miracle ?

Did Nebuchadnezzar's golden idol image walk and talk? Did it become a literal person?

You have to stick to the subject of the concept of the "image of the beast" written of in Rev.13, an idol, if you're going to try and trap me.
 

Douggg

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So when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon setup a golden image of himself, did that golden idol walk and talk?
Because there was no Satanic involved so-called miracle to make it do so.
 

Davy

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Davy, what is the objective that the false prophet wishes to make to the world regarding the first beast person?

The objective is to convince the world that the first beast person is God - by in the first beast's presence, the false prophet brings the lifeless inert image to life.

The people of the world make the image themselves v14, so they will know it is not by trick technology.

It is copy-cat of God bringing life to a lifeless form of clay, dust from the ground, when God created man and breathed life into him.

What the false prophet does will be a miracle, but it will be a lying miracle because Satan will be behind it. Satan will be exposed for the world to see, when the statue image of the beast is turned to ashes at Jesus's return.

The "false prophet" is a ROLE that Satan will play, just as Lord Jesus also was a Prophet.

We know this because the false prophet is cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' coming, which means PRIOR to the Great Judgment. No flesh man is judged to perish until the Great Judgement at the end of the 1,000 years of Rev.20. Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

I already showed that from God's Word. Moreover, in Rev.16 it says the false prophet works the miracles of the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, which is pointing to the "dragon", which is another title for Satan.
 

Davy

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Because there was no Satanic involved so-called miracle to make it do so.

So far, your imagination, and not God's Word, is the only thing that supports your belief that the "image of the beast" is going to be a walking, talking idol, like some Hollywood movie.
 

Douggg

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Did Nebuchadnezzar's golden idol image walk and talk? Did it become a literal person?

You have to stick to the subject of the concept of the "image of the beast" written of in Rev.13, an idol, if you're going to try and trap me.
The only similarity between the image of Nebuchadnezzar and the Revelation 13 statue image of the beast - is that the Neb-statue was inert, and that the Revelation 13 statue will be inert, lifeless, when made.

Except that in the case of the Revelation 13 statue, it will come to life. While the Neb-statue never did, because Satan did not incarnate the Neb-statue.
 
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MrBebe

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Sorry, it doesn't work. King 6 (the 6th head) was ruling at the time of John. There are 6 heads in your group ending with the Leopard - Greek empire.

A Caesar was ruling at the time of John, not one of the Greek kings.

The 7head, kings, are...

Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius

Nero

The end times little horn - king 7.

The beast (the little horn killed because of the transgression of desolation he commits while as the Antichrist, and comes back to life possessed) - king 8.

The person comes into the middle east following Gog/Magog as the little horn/prince who shall come. The Jews will think he is the messiah and is anointed the King of Israel. Around three years goes by and he betrays them
committing the transgression of desolation. Is killed for it, but is brought back to life as the beast, and the ten EU leaders hand their kingdom over to him to dictator.


View attachment 11872
Good day,

Your talking about heads as “kings” and I’m talking about heads as “mountains” when I referred to the beasts/heads of Dan 7. Seems like you didn’t finish reading my post. Read again my post, Douggg, numbered #63.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-

1Co 13:8-9 Murdock
(8) Love will never cease. But prophesyings will end; and tongues will be silent; and knowledge will vanish. (9) For we know but partially; and we prophesy but partially.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-
 

MrBebe

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Because I am a literalist, unless the text denotes a metaphorical interpretation. So Yes, beasts are symbolic, but their origin is not symbolic, but are real origins and the text does not allow for a metaphorical interpretation. In 17:15 when it speaks of waters being nations and languages etc. then there is reason for the metaphor given in the text but not in revelation 13 where it says the beast rises out of the sea. This is the point of this post, you are mixing apples and oranges and coming to confusing conclusions. The beast of rev. 13 literally rises out of the sea, the beast of revelation 17 out of the bottomless pit. Satan is not now nor will he be locked in the bottomless pit until after Armageddon, the fallen angels are locked in chains in the lowest parts of hell, this is scripture interpreting scripture and arriving at a literal common sense conclusion. This second beast is a fallen angel, who unites with the harlot (false religion) and 10 Kings From the east.
Good day brother,

Again, you are ignoring the verses that was presented to you that logically link the 1st beast of chap 13 to the beast of chap 17. Those verses together with the numbers of the beasts’ heads and horns are telling that they are one and the same beast. You are also again ignoring that “bottomless pit” is not what is written in the Aramaic Analysis Page of Revelation 17:8 but “sea.”

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-

1Co 13:8-9 Murdock
(8) Love will never cease. But prophesyings will end; and tongues will be silent; and knowledge will vanish. (9) For we know but partially; and we prophesy but partially.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-
 
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Douggg

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It could be in this way the 7 heads are meant to be “mountains” in verse 9. The “7th” mountain (not king) in Revelation 17 represents only the beast that “was” because the beast that “will ascend” (8th mountain) is not yet come and when it comes, it will destroy the whore as judgment to her.
v11 is a contiunation of v10. It is talking about 7 kings in v10. And the beast in v 11, will be the eighth (king implied). And is of the 7.