Peter's Sermon On Pentecost

RichardBurger · Jul 15, 2010

Peter's sermon on Pentecost:

I believe that Peter's sermon has been taken out of context and used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. This article is my attempt to prove that it has to be read “IN CONTEXT.“

(was it to the Jews, the Gentiles, or both?) (IMHO = In my honest opinion)

Acts 2:31-38 (NKJV)
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
'Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'

In the above Peter is testifying to the Jews that Jesus is the promised Christ.

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter tells the Jews they have crucified the Lord of Glory. The Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone """for crucifying Jesus."""

38 ""THEN"" Peter said to “”THEM,”” "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned.

The Jews were to fulfill a Jewish ritual of water cleansing (water baptism), a ritual under the Law of Moses, and at the same time they were to 'acknowledge' Jesus as the Christ by performing a water cleansing ritual (baptism) in His name.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Peter's sermon included verse 39 which was taken from Joel 2:28-29 and was about the ""promise of the Holy Spirit"" that was to be “”given to the Jews.”” Verse 39 was to assure the Jews that their sin of rejecting Jesus would be forgiven and that they would also be given the Holy Spirit (see verse 38). Joel 2:28-3:1

Although it was the Gentiles that actually killed Jesus they did it because the Jews insisted. The Gentiles did not need to repent for what the Jews did. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles therefore the Gentiles had not rejected Him. (Matt 10:5-7) (Matt 15:23-24) (Rom 15:8)

Peter's sermon has been used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. It has become a “FORMULA” to be repeated in order to be saved. I also know that some will reject this writing. But IMHO I don't think Peter's sermon is appropriate or valid for this age of grace and those that use it are preaching a sermon that was preached to the Jews, those that had Christ crucified, as if it also applies to the Gentiles. IMHO, that is a blatant falsehood because it is not the truth.

Then how is one saved in this age of God’s grace? Rom 10:5-13

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
6 “””But””” the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." NKJV

There is nothing in Rom 10:5-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance.

Richard

bling · Jul 16, 2010

RichardBurger said:
Peter's sermon on Pentecost:

I believe that Peter's sermon has been taken out of context and used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. This article is my attempt to prove that it has to be read “IN CONTEXT.“

(was it to the Jews, the Gentiles, or both?) (IMHO = In my honest opinion)

Acts 2:31-38 (NKJV)
31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
'Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."'

In the above Peter is testifying to the Jews that Jesus is the promised Christ.

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter tells the Jews they have crucified the Lord of Glory. The Jews wanted to know what they could do to atone """for crucifying Jesus."""

38 ""THEN"" Peter said to “”THEM,”” "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Note: Verse 38 is a DIRECT answer to the question in verse 37. The Jews were to repent of rejecting Jesus and having Him crucified. ---NOTE: It was not to repent of sins of the sinful flesh. Nowhere in the context of these scriptures has sins of the sinful flesh been mentioned.

The Jews were to fulfill a Jewish ritual of water cleansing (water baptism), a ritual under the Law of Moses, and at the same time they were to 'acknowledge' Jesus as the Christ by performing a water cleansing ritual (baptism) in His name.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Peter's sermon included verse 39 which was taken from Joel 2:28-29 and was about the ""promise of the Holy Spirit"" that was to be “”given to the Jews.”” Verse 39 was to assure the Jews that their sin of rejecting Jesus would be forgiven and that they would also be given the Holy Spirit (see verse 38). Joel 2:28-3:1

Although it was the Gentiles that actually killed Jesus they did it because the Jews insisted. The Gentiles did not need to repent for what the Jews did. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles therefore the Gentiles had not rejected Him. (Matt 10:5-7) (Matt 15:23-24) (Rom 15:8)

Peter's sermon has been used as a blanket sermon about repenting and being water baptized. It has become a “FORMULA” to be repeated in order to be saved. I also know that some will reject this writing. But IMHO I don't think Peter's sermon is appropriate or valid for this age of grace and those that use it are preaching a sermon that was preached to the Jews, those that had Christ crucified, as if it also applies to the Gentiles. IMHO, that is a blatant falsehood because it is not the truth.

Then how is one saved in this age of God’s grace? Rom 10:5-13

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
6 “””But””” the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." NKJV

There is nothing in Rom 10:5-13 about an act of water baptism or repentance.

Richard

Peter was preaching only to Jews on Pentecost and it was specific for people that were prepared by the happenings of the last 50 days to here this specific sermon.
You need to do a study on what it means to do something “in the name of”. This was not the same ritual baptisms of the past and was not John’s baptism that most had already accepted and been baptized with John’s baptism.
Are we all not guilty of Jesus crucifixion?
Paul water baptized people, but just as Jesus did not baptize anyone with the baptism of John’s baptism (Jesus disciples baptized lots) he tried to avoid the actual baptizing. Paul (and Christ) are trying to avoid people using the fact that he actually physically baptized them as a reason for difference between Christians as some were doing in Corinth separating by who did the actual baptizing of them.

RichardBurger · Jul 16, 2010

bling said:
Peter was preaching only to Jews on Pentecost and it was specific for people that were prepared by the happenings of the last 50 days to here this specific sermon.
You need to do a study on what it means to do something “in the name of”. This was not the same ritual baptisms of the past and was not John’s baptism that most had already accepted and been baptized with John’s baptism.
Are we all not guilty of Jesus crucifixion?
Paul water baptized people, but just as Jesus did not baptize anyone with the baptism of John’s baptism (Jesus disciples baptized lots) he tried to avoid the actual baptizing. Paul (and Christ) are trying to avoid people using the fact that he actually physically baptized them as a reason for difference between Christians as some were doing in Corinth separating by who did the actual baptizing of them.

I am not a slave to the ideas of the RCC. I can read and understand for myself. What I said about Peter's sermon is factual. What Peter said was directed to a specific people who had asked a specific question. To take the verse out of context is to teach a lie. But I know that those that teach water baptism will refuse to see anything that might interfere with what they believe.

Selene · Jul 16, 2010

RichardBurger said:
I am not a slave to the ideas of the RCC. I can read and understand for myself. What I said about Peter's sermon is factual. What Peter said was directed to a specific people who had asked a specific question. To take the verse out of context is to teach a lie. But I know that those that teach water baptism will refuse to see anything that might interfere with what they believe.

Hello Richard,

Are you saying that it is wrong to baptize with water? And if so, could you explain why? How was Peter's sermon taken out of context? I understood that he was speaking to all the Jews from different nations. I also understood that this promise that St. Peter spoke about was not only meant for the Jewish people, but also for the Gentiles. St. Peter stated: For the promise is to you and to your children, AND to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." "All who are afar off" is referring to the Gentiles who will be called by God. Jesus sent His Apostles to the Gentiles to baptize every nation (Matthew 28:19). St. Peter is telling the Jews that this promise is made not only to them but also to the Gentiles whom God WILL call. This Scripture is aligned with Romans 9:24: Even us, whom also he hath called, nor only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles. In his Letter to the Romans, St. Paul was addressing ONLY the Christian Gentiles in Rome, but he was telling them that they are also called by God just as the Jews were. At any rate, I would like to know why you think that water baptism is wrong.

In your post, you stated the following:

[quote]From RichardBurger: "Although it was the Gentiles that actually killed Jesus they did it because the Jews insisted. The Gentiles did not need to repent for what the Jews did. Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles therefore the Gentiles had not rejected Him. (Matt 10:5-7) (Matt 15:23-24) (Rom 15:8)" [/quote]

First of all, I disagree with you when you say that the Gentiles did not need to repent. Although the Jewish high priest insisted that Jesus die, the Gentiles were guilty of killing an innocent man and therefore, culpable of murder. After all, in the Nuremburg trials, even the Nazi soldiers were found guilty of murder despite the fact that they were "just following orders." On the cross, Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do." He was referring not just to the Jews but also to the Roman soldiers. Furthermore, it was actually OUR sins that Christ bore with Him on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). It was not just the sins of the Jews that He bore on the cross. Finally, the Gentiles were also called to repentance (See Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:25).

In Christ,
Selene

RichardBurger · Jul 17, 2010

Selene said:
Hello Richard,

Are you saying that it is wrong to baptize with water? And if so, could you explain why? How was Peter's sermon taken out of context? I understood that he was speaking to all the Jews from different nations. I also understood that this promise that St. Peter spoke about was not only meant for the Jewish people, but also for the Gentiles. St. Peter stated: For the promise is to you and to your children, AND to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." "All who are afar off" is referring to the Gentiles who will be called by God. Jesus sent His Apostles to the Gentiles to baptize every nation (Matthew 28:19). St. Peter is telling the Jews that this promise is made not only to them but also to the Gentiles whom God WILL call. This Scripture is aligned with Romans 9:24: Even us, whom also he hath called, nor only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles. In his Letter to the Romans, St. Paul was addressing ONLY the Christian Gentiles in Rome, but he was telling them that they are also called by God just as the Jews were. At any rate, I would like to know why you think that water baptism is wrong.

In your post, you stated the following:

First of all, I disagree with you when you say that the Gentiles did not need to repent. Although the Jewish high priest insisted that Jesus die, the Gentiles were guilty of killing an innocent man and therefore, culpable of murder. After all, in the Nuremburg trials, even the Nazi soldiers were found guilty of murder despite the fact that they were "just following orders." On the cross, Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do." He was referring not just to the Jews but also to the Roman soldiers. Furthermore, it was actually OUR sins that Christ bore with Him on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). It was not just the sins of the Jews that He bore on the cross. Finally, the Gentiles were also called to repentance (See Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:25).

In Christ,
Selene

But the Jews did not go to the Gentiles. Only Paul did and his gospel was of grace, not law. Water baptism is a washing ritual under the law. The 12 were to go first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. They couldn't convince the Jews so how could they convince the Gentiles.

The RCC has always taught that the Christian church is built on the 12 Aposles. Was it?

The Great Commission: It was given to the 12 (Jews). They were to start in Jerusalem and then go out into the rest of the world. --- Problem! The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and He could not set up His kingdom. The 12 had 40 years to try and get the Jews to accept Jesus but they couldn’t. So God had the Temple destroyed in 70 AD and turned to the Gentiles with a new gospel of God’s grace given to Paul. ---- Problem! Many do not see that the gospel changed. When they read Paul’s letters saying the gospel given to him was hidden in God since the world began their eyes glaze over and they refuse to see it. ---- Was the Great Commission given to the 12 rescinded?? Yes in Gal 2:6-10 verse 9.

Gal 2:6-10
6 But from those who seemed to be something — whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man — for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.
7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),

9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. ---- NKJV

Tell me, what did they agree to in verse 9?

As for who killed Jesus; what did the Jews say? Didn't they say "His blood be on our hands"? Are those word in the scripture to fill up space?

Paul · Jul 17, 2010

RichardBurger said:
…

As for who killed Jesus; what did the Jews say? Didn't they say "His blood be on our hands"? Are those word in the scripture to fill up space?

Just a side note, RB, were the “Jews” that killed Christ our brother Judah, or were they people that claimed to be Jews but were not?

Selene · Jul 17, 2010

RichardBurger said:
But the Jews did not go to the Gentiles. Only Paul did and his gospel was of grace, not law. Water baptism is a washing ritual under the law. The 12 were to go first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. They couldn't convince the Jews so how could they convince the Gentiles.

The RCC has always taught that the Christian church is built on the 12 Aposles. Was it?

Hello Richard,

All 12 Apostles went to the Gentiles. Christ told all of them to go out into the world and Christ does not go back on His word because He is Truth. However, it was St. Paul who converted and baptized MOST of the Gentiles; therefore, we call him the Apostle of the Gentiles. St. Peter, on the other hand, was the FIRST to baptize the Gentiles (See Acts 10:44-48). All the Apostles went out into the world and all of them except St. John were martyed. St. John died about 100 A.D. most likely in Ephesus. Both St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred in Rome.

No, the Catholic Church never taught that the Christian church was built on the 12 Apostles. It taught that the Christian Church was built on the Apostle Peter according to Matthew 16:18. It was St. Peter whom Christ gave the keys to Heaven and to whom He put in charge of His entire flock (John 21:15-17).

The Great Commission: It was given to the 12 (Jews). They were to start in Jerusalem and then go out into the rest of the world. --- Problem! The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and He could not set up His kingdom. The 12 had 40 years to try and get the Jews to accept Jesus but they couldn’t. So God had the Temple destroyed in 70 AD and turned to the Gentiles with a new gospel of God’s grace given to Paul. ---- Problem! Many do not see that the gospel changed. When they read Paul’s letters saying the gospel given to him was hidden in God since the world began their eyes glaze over and they refuse to see it. ---- Was the Great Commission given to the 12 rescinded?? Yes in Gal 2:6-10 verse 9.

Read carefully what Galatians 2 is telling you. Chapter 2 started out with a problem that came up. Below is the entire Scripture:

Galatians 2:4-9 The question came up only because some who do not really belong to the brotherhood have furtively crept in to spy on the liberty we enjoy in Christ Jesus, and want to reduce us all to slavery. I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for a moment. As a result, these people who are acknowledged leaders - not that their importance matters to me, since God has no favourites - these leaders, as I say, had nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they recognized that I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the cirumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans. So, James, Cephas, and John, these leaders, these pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to go to the pagans and they to the cirucmcised.

(Taken from the Jerusalem Bible)

The issue at hand was the Good News, which was the Gospel, that St. Paul was preaching. St. Paul said that nothing new was added to the Gospel because he safeguarded it and refused to believe those leaders. When the Apostles learned that what St. Paul preached was the same thing that they preached, they shook hands and allowed him to preach to the Gentiles.

However, there was never a restriction placed on St. Paul or on St. Peter and the Apostles. We know there was no restrictions for St. Paul to preach ONLY to the Gentiles because we see St. Paul preaching to the Jews in Acts 22. We also know that there never was any restrictions on St. Peter to preach ONLY to the Jews because we see St. Peter going to the Gentiles from place to place in Acts 9:32-43. We also know that St. Peter wrote his letters while he was in Rome (1 Peter 5:13).

As for water baptism, all the Apostles including St. Paul practiced it. Water baptism did not come from man. It came directly from Heaven. It came from God (See John 1:33 and Matthew 21:25). It was God who ordered St. John the Baptist to start water baptism, and Christ allowed His Apostles to continue this practice (John 4:1-2). Water baptism came from God and it was never rescinded by God. God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

RichardBurger · Jul 17, 2010

Paul said:
Just a side note, RB, were the “Jews” that killed Christ our brother Judah, or were they people that claimed to be Jews but were not?

You want me to rationalize and I will not. I have stated what the Jews said and it plainly says that the jews accepted the blood of Jesus to be on their head. You seem to be looking for a way around what they said.

Selene said:
Hello Richard,

All 12 Apostles went to the Gentiles. Christ told all of them to go out into the world and Christ does not go back on His word because He is Truth. However, it was St. Paul who converted and baptized MOST of the Gentiles; therefore, we call him the Apostle of the Gentiles. St. Peter, on the other hand, was the FIRST to baptize the Gentiles (See Acts 10:44-48). All the Apostles went out into the world and all of them except St. John were martyed. St. John died about 100 A.D. most likely in Ephesus. Both St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred in Rome.

No, the Catholic Church never taught that the Christian church was built on the 12 Apostles. It taught that the Christian Church was built on the Apostle Peter according to Matthew 16:18. It was St. Peter whom Christ gave the keys to Heaven and to whom He put in charge of His entire flock (John 21:15-17).

Read carefully what Galatians 2 is telling you. Chapter 2 started out with a problem that came up. Below is the entire Scripture:

Galatians 2:4-9 The question came up only because some who do not really belong to the brotherhood have furtively crept in to spy on the liberty we enjoy in Christ Jesus, and want to reduce us all to slavery. I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for a moment. As a result, these people who are acknowledged leaders - not that their importance matters to me, since God has no favourites - these leaders, as I say, had nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they recognized that I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the cirumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans. So, James, Cephas, and John, these leaders, these pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to go to the pagans and they to the cirucmcised.

(Taken from the Jerusalem Bible)

The issue at hand was the Good News, which was the Gospel, that St. Paul was preaching. St. Paul said that nothing new was added to the Gospel because he safeguarded it and refused to believe those leaders. When the Apostles learned that what St. Paul preached was the same thing that they preached, they shook hands and allowed him to preach to the Gentiles.

However, there was never a restriction placed on St. Paul or on St. Peter and the Apostles. We know there was no restrictions for St. Paul to preach ONLY to the Gentiles because we see St. Paul preaching to the Jews in Acts 22. We also know that there never was any restrictions on St. Peter to preach ONLY to the Jews because we see St. Peter going to the Gentiles from place to place in Acts 9:32-43. We also know that St. Peter wrote his letters while he was in Rome (1 Peter 5:13).

As for water baptism, all the Apostles including St. Paul practiced it. Water baptism did not come from man. It came directly from Heaven. It came from God (See John 1:33 and Matthew 21:25). It was God who ordered St. John the Baptist to start water baptism, and Christ allowed His Apostles to continue this practice (John 4:1-2). Water baptism came from God and it was never rescinded by God. God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

So you want everyone to ignore Gal 2:6-10 verse 9. If, as you say, the Jews went to the Gentiles then they broke their agreement with Paul. But I see it is necessary for you to ignore Gal 2:verse 9 so you can continue to believe what the RCC church teaches.

Paul · Jul 17, 2010

RichardBurger said:
You want me to rationalize and I will not. I have stated what the Jews said and it plainly says that the jews accepted the blood of Jesus to be on their head. You seem to be looking for a way around what they said.

...

Yes it says that in Scripture but again were the Jews that said that "our brother Judah, or were they people that claimed to be Jews but were not?" Did you know that there are people that falsely claim to be Jews? It's has nothing to do with rationalization.

RichardBurger · Jul 18, 2010

Paul said:
Yes it says that in Scripture but again were the Jews that said that "our brother Judah, or were they people that claimed to be Jews but were not?" Did you know that there are people that falsely claim to be Jews? It's has nothing to do with rationalization.

Okay, then God had what the Jews said put in the scriptures so that we can ignore them. Just wonderful!

Why are you taking something that Paul said in another context and saying it applies here? The truth is that you are making a judgement that they were not Jews and the scripture does not say that.

Selene · Jul 18, 2010

RichardBurger said:
So you want everyone to ignore Gal 2:6-10 verse 9. If, as you say, the Jews went to the Gentiles then they broke their agreement with Paul. But I see it is necessary for you to ignore Gal 2:verse 9 so you can continue to believe what the RCC church teaches.

Hello Richard,

I never ignored Galatians 2:6-10. My brother, you misinterpreted the Scripture. You thought that St. Paul was to go ONLY to the Gentiles and St. Peter was to go ONLY to the Jews. You misinterpreted Scripture because as the Bible shows you, St. Paul also preached to the Jewish people in Acts 22 and St. Peter also went to the Gentiles in Acts 9:32-43. If what you interpret is correct, then what was St. Paul doing preaching to the Jewish people and what was St. Peter doing going to the Gentiles and to pagan Rome? I quoted the Scriptures. It's all there in the Bible. I already gave you the biblical scripture. All you had to do was look it up.

Acts 21 speaks about St. Paul journey to Jerusalem and then it goes on to Acts 22 where St. Paul speaks to the Jewish people and then Acts 23 tells how the Jewish people did not listen to St. Paul and had him put in prison. That is in the Bible.

As for St. Peter, Acts 9:32-35 tells about St. Peter visiting one place after another and eventually came to Lydda. Then Acts 36-43 tells about St. Peter's journey from Lydda to Jaffa. 1 Peter 5:13 also shows that St. Peter was in pagan Rome. Again, all these are in the Bible. Therefore, your interpretation of Galatians 2:6-10 is actually incorrect. I am not saying that Galatians 2:6-10 is incorrect. I am saying that YOUR INTERPRETATION of Galatians 2:6-10 is incorrect.

My brother, Christ told His disciples to go to all the nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Do you honestly think that St. Paul and the Apostles are going to make an agreement that goes against Christ's command? It would not make sense for the Apostles to make such an agreement; therefore,YOUR INTERPRETATION of Galatians 2:6-10 is incorrect.

As for water baptism, as I said in my previous post, all the Apostles practiced water baptism. Water baptism is not in the Old Testament. It began in the New Testament with St. John the Baptist. That is in the Bible. It is also in the Bible that water baptism came directly from God. It never came from man.

John 1:33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost..

As you can see from biblical scripture, St. John the Baptist admitted that it was God who sent him to baptize with water. Man was not the one who sent John the Baptist to baptize.. It was ordered by God. And Christ allowed His disciples to continue the practice of water baptism as shown in the Scripture below:

John 4:1-2 When Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,)

As you can see from Scripture, Jesus never got rid of water baptism as well. Instead, He allowed His disciples to baptize. Regarding John's baptism, Jesus said this to the Pharisees:

Luke 20:4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

Jesus asked this question to the Pharisees, and the Pharisees were afraid to answer. Of course, we already know that the baptism of St. John the Baptist was from Heaven according to the Scipture in John 1:33. After Christ's death and resurrection, all the Apostles continued the practice of water baptism. My brother, this has nothing to do with the Catholic Church because all this information is found in Scripture. God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

RichardBurger · Jul 18, 2010

Selene said:
Hello Richard,

I never ignored Galatians 2:6-10. My brother, you misinterpreted the Scripture. You thought that St. Paul was to go ONLY to the Gentiles and St. Peter was to go ONLY to the Jews. You misinterpreted Scripture because as the Bible shows you, St. Paul also preached to the Jewish people in Acts 22 and St. Peter also went to the Gentiles in Acts 9:32-43. If what you interpret is correct, then what was St. Paul doing preaching to the Jewish people and what was St. Peter doing going to the Gentiles and to pagan Rome? I quoted the Scriptures. It's all there in the Bible. I already gave you the biblical scripture. All you had to do was look it up.

Acts 21 speaks about St. Paul journey to Jerusalem and then it goes on to Acts 22 where St. Paul speaks to the Jewish people and then Acts 23 tells how the Jewish people did not listen to St. Paul and had him put in prison. That is in the Bible.

As for St. Peter, Acts 9:32-35 tells about St. Peter visiting one place after another and eventually came to Lydda. Then Acts 36-43 tells about St. Peter's journey from Lydda to Jaffa. 1 Peter 5:13 also shows that St. Peter was in pagan Rome. Again, all these are in the Bible. Therefore, your interpretation of Galatians 2:6-10 is actually incorrect. I am not saying that Galatians 2:6-10 is incorrect. I am saying that YOUR INTERPRETATION of Galatians 2:6-10 is incorrect.

My brother, Christ told His disciples to go to all the nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Do you honestly think that St. Paul and the Apostles are going to make an agreement that goes against Christ's command? It would not make sense for the Apostles to make such an agreement; therefore,YOUR INTERPRETATION of Galatians 2:6-10 is incorrect.

As for water baptism, as I said in my previous post, all the Apostles practiced water baptism. Water baptism is not in the Old Testament. It began in the New Testament with St. John the Baptist. That is in the Bible. It is also in the Bible that water baptism came directly from God. It never came from man.

John 1:33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost..

As you can see from biblical scripture, St. John the Baptist admitted that it was God who sent him to baptize with water. Man was not the one who sent John the Baptist to baptize.. It was ordered by God. And Christ allowed His disciples to continue the practice of water baptism as shown in the Scripture below:

John 4:1-2 When Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,)

As you can see from Scripture, Jesus never got rid of water baptism as well. Instead, He allowed His disciples to baptize. Regarding John's baptism, Jesus said this to the Pharisees:

Luke 20:4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

Jesus asked this question to the Pharisees, and the Pharisees were afraid to answer. Of course, we already know that the baptism of St. John the Baptist was from Heaven according to the Scipture in John 1:33. After Christ's death and resurrection, all the Apostles continued the practice of water baptism. My brother, this has nothing to do with the Catholic Church because all this information is found in Scripture. God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

Very good reply except that I did not "INTERPRET" anything, you are. I posted what was written in plain words in Gal. The problem is that you will not hear them so you rationalize that they don't mean anything.

Case closed because we are just going to argue and I have no time for it.
It is obvious that Paul was preaching top both Jew and Gentile. But the Jews did not hear his gospel of grace (Acts 21). You are making a big deal out of this and did not post what Paul siad to the Jews when they continued to refuse his gospel of grace. He said he would no longer preach to the Jews.

Selene · Jul 18, 2010

RichardBurger said:
Very good reply except that I did not "INTERPRET" anything, you are. I posted what was written in plain words in Gal. The problem is that you will not hear them so you rationalize that they don't mean anything.

Case closed because we are just going to argue and I have no time for it.
It is obvious that Paul was preaching top both Jew and Gentile. But the Jews did not hear his gospel of grace (Acts 21). You are making a big deal out of this and did not post what Paul siad to the Jews when they continued to refuse his gospel of grace. He said he would no longer preach to the Jews.

Peace be with you.

In Christ,
Selene

bling · Jul 19, 2010

RichardBurger said:
I am not a slave to the ideas of the RCC. I can read and understand for myself. What I said about Peter's sermon is factual. What Peter said was directed to a specific people who had asked a specific question. To take the verse out of context is to teach a lie. But I know that those that teach water baptism will refuse to see anything that might interfere with what they believe.

I am not RCC. I am not taking the verse out of context and all scripture is applicable in some ways. What Peter said to the Jews at that time is only applicable to us, because it is repeated (not word for word) to the gentiles and is totally consistent with everything else in the New Testament.
Did Christ bare your sins on the cross?
If you matured to the point of completing your earthly objective without sinning, than there would be another way for humans to fulfill their objective without Christ going to the cross and He would not have had to. So in this way, I am personally responsible for Christ’s crucifixion.
Why did Paul baptize some people?
Why did Paul re-baptize the 12 in Acts 19: 1-7?

fivesense · Jul 23, 2010

bling said:
Peter was preaching only to Jews on Pentecost and it was specific for people that were prepared by the happenings of the last 50 days to here this specific sermon.
You need to do a study on what it means to do something “in the name of”. This was not the same ritual baptisms of the past and was not John’s baptism that most had already accepted and been baptized with John’s baptism.
Are we all not guilty of Jesus crucifixion?
Paul water baptized people, but just as Jesus did not baptize anyone with the baptism of John’s baptism (Jesus disciples baptized lots) he tried to avoid the actual baptizing. Paul (and Christ) are trying to avoid people using the fact that he actually physically baptized them as a reason for difference between Christians as some were doing in Corinth separating by who did the actual baptizing of them.

1C 1:17 . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Are we trying to insert something here, the "tried to avoid" thing, when it is evidenced that baptism by Paul was gratuitous at best, and totally outside his commission for certain? While the Kingdom Gospel was still being preached, and Paul sought to maintain ties with Jerusalem, Jews were fulfilling the mandate of Jesus and the Twelve though baptism and repentance. It was never a part of the Paul's Gospel of the grace of God. Paul's apostleship to the nations never included water baptism. Now, there is only one faith, one baptism, and that is into Christ's death, in spirit.

fivesense

fivesense · Jul 23, 2010

Selene said:
Hello Richard,

All 12 Apostles went to the Gentiles. Christ told all of them to go out into the world and Christ does not go back on His word because He is Truth. However, it was St. Paul who converted and baptized MOST of the Gentiles; therefore, we call him the Apostle of the Gentiles. St. Peter, on the other hand, was the FIRST to baptize the Gentiles (See Acts 10:44-48). All the Apostles went out into the world and all of them except St. John were martyed. St. John died about 100 A.D. most likely in Ephesus. Both St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred in Rome.

No, the Catholic Church never taught that the Christian church was built on the 12 Apostles. It taught that the Christian Church was built on the Apostle Peter according to Matthew 16:18. It was St. Peter whom Christ gave the keys to Heaven and to whom He put in charge of His entire flock (John 21:15-17).

Read carefully what Galatians 2 is telling you. Chapter 2 started out with a problem that came up. Below is the entire Scripture:

Galatians 2:4-9 The question came up only because some who do not really belong to the brotherhood have furtively crept in to spy on the liberty we enjoy in Christ Jesus, and want to reduce us all to slavery. I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for a moment. As a result, these people who are acknowledged leaders - not that their importance matters to me, since God has no favourites - these leaders, as I say, had nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they recognized that I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the cirumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans. So, James, Cephas, and John, these leaders, these pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to go to the pagans and they to the cirucmcised.

(Taken from the Jerusalem Bible)

The issue at hand was the Good News, which was the Gospel, that St. Paul was preaching. St. Paul said that nothing new was added to the Gospel because he safeguarded it and refused to believe those leaders. When the Apostles learned that what St. Paul preached was the same thing that they preached, they shook hands and allowed him to preach to the Gentiles.

However, there was never a restriction placed on St. Paul or on St. Peter and the Apostles. We know there was no restrictions for St. Paul to preach ONLY to the Gentiles because we see St. Paul preaching to the Jews in Acts 22. We also know that there never was any restrictions on St. Peter to preach ONLY to the Jews because we see St. Peter going to the Gentiles from place to place in Acts 9:32-43. We also know that St. Peter wrote his letters while he was in Rome (1 Peter 5:13).

As for water baptism, all the Apostles including St. Paul practiced it. Water baptism did not come from man. It came directly from Heaven. It came from God (See John 1:33 and Matthew 21:25). It was God who ordered St. John the Baptist to start water baptism, and Christ allowed His Apostles to continue this practice (John 4:1-2). Water baptism came from God and it was never rescinded by God. God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

1C 1:17 . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If water baptism is a requirement from God, why did the Lord from heaven rescind it when He commissioned Paul? I find it contradictory that Paul, an Apostle of God, was given a commission and this requirement was not a part of it. Or, is this passage too vague?

fivesense

fivesense · Jul 23, 2010

bling said:
I am not RCC. I am not taking the verse out of context and all scripture is applicable in some ways. What Peter said to the Jews at that time is only applicable to us, because it is repeated (not word for word) to the gentiles and is totally consistent with everything else in the New Testament.
Did Christ bare your sins on the cross?
If you matured to the point of completing your earthly objective without sinning, than there would be another way for humans to fulfill their objective without Christ going to the cross and He would not have had to. So in this way, I am personally responsible for Christ’s crucifixion.
Why did Paul baptize some people?
Why did Paul re-baptize the 12 in Acts 19: 1-7?

The Jewish nation was to be the recipients of a King of Promise, and all were to repent and be baptized in order to establish the Covenant made with the Patriachs, and Jesus Messiah was suppose to have reigned at His first coming with them over the nations. It did not happen because God locked them up in stubbornness so He could have mercy on everyone.

Had the plan of the Patriarchal Promise found fulfillment, we would be going through the Hebrew system of worship, and seeking them to intercede on our behalf, our place as strangers and foreigners to the promises being intact.

The Cross of Christ came by way of Israel's rejection of their King and the Kingdom. It is the result of their sin against Him. It is after the fact that we are saved, the Sacrificial Lamb being so completely perfect in the offering to God. Water baptism, in light of the bloody crucifixion and murder of out Lord, is small potatoes indeed.
Yet even the saved Jews of the time could not see that. They never did see it, and that is why God commissioned Paul as the Apostle to the nations. There are only three episodes recorded of gentile conversion by any of the Twelve, and that was to the Law and works (see James' epistle), never to the gospel of grace.

fivesense

fivesense · Jul 23, 2010

Selene said:
Hello Richard,

All 12 Apostles went to the Gentiles. Christ told all of them to go out into the world and Christ does not go back on His word because He is Truth. However, it was St. Paul who converted and baptized MOST of the Gentiles; therefore, we call him the Apostle of the Gentiles. St. Peter, on the other hand, was the FIRST to baptize the Gentiles (See Acts 10:44-48). All the Apostles went out into the world and all of them except St. John were martyed. St. John died about 100 A.D. most likely in Ephesus. Both St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred in Rome.
Selene

Ac 11:19 . Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

This is evidence. It is not conjecture Selene.

Peter converted one man, not many. The Holy Spirit does not record any more. He had to experience three terrifying visions before he would go, and then they chided the heck out of him for going into a gentile home. These were Jewish believers that did the chiding, not unbelievers.

They failed to incorporate the Gentiles into the gospel they were to preach. No where do the scriptures record "all 12 Apostles went to the Gentiles", in fact, it states the contrary. They failed because the did not want to see the gentile nations inheriting the promises of the fathers. They wanted it to themselves, as was promised by the Prophets, the heathen as an inheritance.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother Ga 1:18-19

The eleven remained in Jerusalem til they finally fled or were possibly martyred. The times and events surrounding their deaths are unkown, and Paul remained uncharged under house arrest in Rome for many years, til he was old (Philemon 1:9). He may very well have exceeded John the Beloved in time and place in the Writings
Ga 2:1 . Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also.

Seventeen years after Paul's commission the Jewish believers still did not know the evangel of the grace of God, nor the truth of the cross of Christ and justification by faith alone. They did not. Only Paul was commissioned to dispense to the gentiles the gospel of grace and faith.

fivesense

Selene · Jul 27, 2010

fivesense said:
Ac 11:19 . Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

This is evidence. It is not conjecture Selene.

Peter converted one man, not many. The Holy Spirit does not record any more. He had to experience three terrifying visions before he would go, and then they chided the heck out of him for going into a gentile home. These were Jewish believers that did the chiding, not unbelievers.

They failed to incorporate the Gentiles into the gospel they were to preach. No where do the scriptures record "all 12 Apostles went to the Gentiles", in fact, it states the contrary. They failed because the did not want to see the gentile nations inheriting the promises of the fathers. They wanted it to themselves, as was promised by the Prophets, the heathen as an inheritance.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother Ga 1:18-19

The eleven remained in Jerusalem til they finally fled or were possibly martyred. The times and events surrounding their deaths are unkown, and Paul remained uncharged under house arrest in Rome for many years, til he was old (Philemon 1:9). He may very well have exceeded John the Beloved in time and place in the Writings
Ga 2:1 . Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also.

Seventeen years after Paul's commission the Jewish believers still did not know the evangel of the grace of God, nor the truth of the cross of Christ and justification by faith alone. They did not. Only Paul was commissioned to dispense to the gentiles the gospel of grace and faith.

fivesense

Hello Fivesense,

You only quoted parts of Scripture. You left out the rest. This is what Scripture says, including the part that you left out.

Acts 11:19-20 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only. But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch, spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus.

As you can see, in the very next verse, it DOES say that they also preached to the Greeks (who are the Hellenists). The Greeks are the Gentiles. When Christ told His 12 Apostles to go out into the world, He is not going to set them up to fail.

I also gave evidence of St. Peter being in Rome. There was a Christian community in Rome BEFORE St. Paul went there. It was St. Peter who established that Christian community in Rome (See Romans 1:1-15). In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul introduced himself to the Christian community in Rome, and in that letter, you can plainly see that he never visited Rome and had always wanted to visit them. So, who converted and established this Christian community in Rome? It was St. Peter who was already there as shown by his letter in 1 Peter 5:13.

In Christ,
Selene

brionne · Jul 27, 2010

RichardBurger said:
I am not a slave to the ideas of the RCC. I can read and understand for myself. What I said about Peter's sermon is factual. What Peter said was directed to a specific people who had asked a specific question. To take the verse out of context is to teach a lie. But I know that those that teach water baptism will refuse to see anything that might interfere with what they believe.

Hi Richard,

What do you say about the fact that Peter, the same one who gave the speech to the Jews at Pentecost about baptism and repentance, also was the one sent by God to the home of the gentile Cornelius to teach him about Jesus and baptize him? If you say gentiles dont need to be baptized, why would God request Peter to do so?

Acts 10:1 Now in Caes‧a‧re′a there was a certain man named Cornelius, an army officer of the Italian band, as it was called, 2 a devout man and one fearing God together with all his household, and he made many gifts of mercy to the people and made supplication to God continually...26 But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man.” 27 And as he conversed with him he went in and found many people assembled, 28 and he said to them: “YOU well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to join himself to or approach a man of another race; and yet God has shown me I should call no man defiled or unclean...44 While Peter was yet speaking about these matters the holy spirit fell upon all those hearing the word. 45 And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations. 46 ...Then Peter responded: 47 “Can anyone forbid water so that these might not be baptized who have received the holy spirit even as we have?” 48 With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Peter's Sermon On Pentecost

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Member

New Member

New Member

Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Active Member

Similar threads