Must You Be Born Again?

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JohnDB

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That would only come through the Holy Spirit.
I have heard some Bible University graduates preach the word without knowledge and understanding.
I have heard a simple uneducated person preach with lots of knowledge given to him by the Spirit.

The first one was reading from a piece of paper.
The second one did not read from notes.

But there comes a time when there's a World of difference between the two.

And that's when there's competing theologies stemming from the same scripture.
I can point to the book of John itself to show exactly what is being said and why. Nothing fancy whatsoever. No extra biblical knowledge needed. (But it does help with this section)

The common mistranslation and flat reading strays way outside the norm of every theology the Bible expresses. Again no studying needed.

For the common understanding all you have to do is not use your brain whatsoever and mindlessly accept what the guy in the pulpit is saying.
 

Pearl

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Such is the case of King Henry VIII and Wycliffe...
Wycliffe entered into the political fray of Catholic Church central authority vx local Authorities. This very verse was called into the defining the theological position.
Wycliffe actually was more aligned with King Henry vx Rome/Spain than anything but differed in other areas of politics...so the King had Wycliffe killed. But he didn't have the clout to kill Coverdale and his translation which much of it came from Wycliffe. (Kings rule at the will of the people too)

At any rate Wycliffe is thought to have purposefully mistranslated this section for political reasons..."genethe anothen" is greek for born from above...any first year Greek/latin student won't come to any other conclusion... because "anothen" means "upper" in every instance in every written document in every time period...

"Again" is not inferred here because Paul's description of regeneration or heart renewal was not thought of as a new birth. It doesn't fit Greek/Roman or Jewish mindset. Nicodemus was being sarcastic when talking to Jesus and his thoughts on incredulity of Jesus' statements and the requirements for actually holding the title/classification of "Born from Above" which referenced such giants of the faith as Samuel, Jacob, and Sampson.
Not sure what you're saying here. sorry.
 

JohnDB

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Not sure what you're saying here. sorry.
There's a lot of history concerning how and why we have an English translation of the Bible. I was discussing a portion of this.
 

Pearl

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There's a lot of history concerning how and why we have an English translation of the Bible. I was discussing a portion of this.
I understand that but even today certain sectors of people who believe they are Christians are discouraged from reading or studying the scriptures for themselves without the aid of 'study aids' designated by their 'elders' which more or less tell them what to believe. All Christians should be free to read and study God's word for themselves but not free to make up their own doctrines.
 

JohnDB

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I understand that but even today certain sectors of people who believe they are Christians are discouraged from reading or studying the scriptures for themselves without the aid of 'study aids' designated by their 'elders' which more or less tell them what to believe. All Christians should be free to read and study God's word for themselves but not free to make up their own doctrines.

Well...I can go along with this somewhat...

But.
There's obvious truths that come to light when studying that most denominations will not go along with...and I do mean very obvious.

And I often wonder why God would allow the confusion or obfuscation.

I can understand how it happened... just not the why.
 

Pearl

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There's obvious truths that come to light when studying that most denominations will not go along with...and I do mean very obvious.
Yes, and that's exactly why they're not allowed to make their own minds up but have to have scripture spoon-fed.
 

amadeus

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That's what it amounts too.
Amadeus I always appreciate your posts.
You remind me of an older local ferry man who operated a small ferry across a river nearby my house.
We attended a bible study at his farm house for years. :)
Thank you for your kind words my friend.

I miss the little church group Bible studies I used to attend and even sometimes lead in... Now being out of the church place, I meet weekly with my old lonely pastor for a good little Bible study... meeting, I believe, the requirement of 2 or 3 gathered in His Name. Give God the glory for that, but I wish the other was also still happening. Am I getting too old I as well as locked down too for many of the things that once were..? Ha! Today is the day is it not? 77 years ago today I began this trek in Oklahoma City. By 7 years I am staying ahead of my wife, but just barely. Happy birthday to me??? Hmmm?
 
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justbyfaith

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Such is the case of King Henry VIII and Wycliffe...
Wycliffe entered into the political fray of Catholic Church central authority vx local Authorities. This very verse was called into the defining the theological position.
Wycliffe actually was more aligned with King Henry vx Rome/Spain than anything but differed in other areas of politics...so the King had Wycliffe killed. But he didn't have the clout to kill Coverdale and his translation which much of it came from Wycliffe. (Kings rule at the will of the people too)

At any rate Wycliffe is thought to have purposefully mistranslated this section for political reasons..."genethe anothen" is greek for born from above...any first year Greek/latin student won't come to any other conclusion... because "anothen" means "upper" in every instance in every written document in every time period...

"Again" is not inferred here because Paul's description of regeneration or heart renewal was not thought of as a new birth. It doesn't fit Greek/Roman or Jewish mindset. Nicodemus was being sarcastic when talking to Jesus and his thoughts on incredulity of Jesus' statements and the requirements for actually holding the title/classification of "Born from Above" which referenced such giants of the faith as Samuel, Jacob, and Sampson.

Personally, I believe that the kjv is inspired and inerrant; and that many of the modern translations have been watered down.
 

JohnDB

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Personally, I believe that the kjv is inspired and inerrant; and that many of the modern translations have been watered down.
You would!

The Oxford/Cambridge translation is so bad by comparison of today's modern translations it's laughable.
You might as well learn Hebrew and Greek and go original.
 

Enoch111

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Born again has to be similar and baptism is just that!
So you are back to promoting baptismal regeneration. The Catholic Church has been promoting this nonsense since time immemorial , and you have joined the crowd.

Baptismal regeneration is FALSE DOCTRINE. Regeneration -- the New Birth -- is strictly a supernatural inward work of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism for believers comes later, since water has no spiritual power or merit.
 

CharismaticLady

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So you are back to promoting baptismal regeneration. The Catholic Church has been promoting this nonsense since time immemorial , and you have joined the crowd.

Baptismal regeneration is FALSE DOCTRINE. Regeneration -- the New Birth -- is strictly a supernatural inward work of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism for believers comes later, since water has no spiritual power or merit.

I believe water baptism has to come after being born again also.
 

CharismaticLady

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There are verses/passages that speak to the contrary.

The only one that I can think of actually requires be filled with the Holy Spirit first in order to be free from sin and have a good conscience.

1 Peter 3:
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
 

justbyfaith

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Hi @CharismaticLady,

Those who are about to be baptized have a good conscience before the Lord because they have died to self and have crucified self.

In baptism, they take the next step...they are buried and risen.

Do a Bible search on baptism and/or sprinkle; and I think that you will get a more rounded view of verses that teach that baptism does indeed have the power to save.

Here:

Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
 
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CharismaticLady

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Hi @CharismaticLady,

Those who are about to be baptized have a good conscience before the Lord because they have died to self and have crucified self.

In baptism, they take the next step...they are buried and risen.

Do a Bible search on baptism and/or sprinkle; and I think that you will get a more rounded view of verses that teach that baptism does indeed have the power to save.

Here:

Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible

I look at baptism as obedience. Whether anything mystical or supernatural happens I don't know. I've was baptized 3 times BEFORE being born again. But once I was born again, I felt the Spirit tell me that NOW I should be baptized, as if for the first time. So what were the other three?
 

justbyfaith

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I look at baptism as obedience. Whether anything mystical or supernatural happens I don't know. I've was baptized 3 times BEFORE being born again. But once I was born again, I felt the Spirit tell me that NOW I should be baptized, as if for the first time. So what were the other three?
I don't know....were they in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? And, were they the answer of a good conscience towards the Lord?
 

CharismaticLady

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I don't know....were they in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? And, were they the answer of a good conscience towards the Lord?

Good conscience? How could they be? I didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after the third one.
 

mailmandan

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In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.
 
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