OSAS Deniers can “ Sin and Get Away With It Too! Here’s How!

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BloodBought 1953

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I know that I sin less than I have ever sinned before now that I have been greatly sanctified

Good for you! A decrease in sin is always a thing to be happy about! It has nothing to do with being saved or staying saved.....If you are Trusting in an improved Morality or a better performance of the Law to get you or keep you Saved, the Standard ,if you choose to go that route , is Perfection! How’s that working for ya?
I dont worry about any if that stuff.....I found a great big “Loop- Hole!” It works like this: I Trust in the Finished Work Of The Cross.....I Trust it so much that I REST in it.....that is what God calls “ Faith” .....for that Faith , God took ALL of my sins and put them in the Cross.....Jesus got my Sin and BB got His Perfection.....an “ imputed” Perfection. It works for God and it works for me......you ought to try it—- while you still have time.
 

BloodBought 1953

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Often, the thing that we most often see in other people that is such an offence is the very thing that plagues us.

When we point the finger at another man, we cannot fail to have three fingers pointing back at us

Luk 6:39, And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk 6:40, The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luk 6:4, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luk 6:42, Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


I agree.....it just doesn’t hold any water in my case....think what you want.....you have the Right to be Wrong....
 

justbyfaith

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Good for you! A decrease in sin is always a thing to be happy about! It has nothing to do with being saved or staying saved...

It is the true result of being saved...and if I did not have it, there would be reason to question as to whether I had genuinely been regenerated and renewed (see 2 Corinthians 13:5)

.If you are Trusting in an improved Morality or a better performance of the Law to get you or keep you Saved, the Standard ,if you choose to go that route , is Perfection! How’s that working for ya?

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me when I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). And this means that I sin not as long as I abide in Christ (1 John 3:6).

When I allow Christ to live His life in me and through me, it is His perfect life that will be lived out by this vessel that the Lord has redeemed. If I take back my life, there is a question at that point as to whether I am still redeemed (Matthew 16:25).

If I sin, my previous righteousness may not very well help me in the day of my transgression (Ezekiel 33:12). Especially if I trust in my imputed righteousness and because of that I transgress out of presumption, all my righteousnesses shall not be remembered, but for my iniquity that I have committed, I shall die for it (Ezekiel 33:13). If I, being righteous, turn from my righteousness and commit iniquity, I shall even die thereby (Ezekiel 33:18).

Now, in the New Testament there is a provision for such iniquity. If I confess my sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive me of my sin and will cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

Even in Ezekiel 33:12, it is written,

Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

If, after committing wickedness, and I die, I turn from my wickedness, confessing my sin...I shall not fall thereby (because of my wickedness) in the day that I turn from my wickedness; because I repented of my sin and laid it at the foot of the Cross.
 

justbyfaith

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I agree.....it just doesn’t hold any water in my case....think what you want.....you have the Right to be Wrong....
Lol...the holy scriptures apply to everyone except you...

ROTFL...

(not really...but your idea is so undignified that I could be ROTFL if I were a lesser type of man)
 

ChristisGod

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Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves

Proverbs 24:17
Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles,

Proverbs 26:19
Is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I am only joking!”

Ephesians 5:4
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving

Proverbs 21:23-24
Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble. “Scoffer” is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride.

1 Peter 3:9-17
Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For “Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? ...

Proverbs 11:9-12
With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered. When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices, and when the wicked perish there are shouts of gladness. By the blessing of the upright a city is exalted, but by the mouth of the wicked it is overthrown. Whoever belittles his neighbor lacks sense, but a man of understanding remains silent.

Proverbs 10:8-18
The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out. Whoever winks the eye causes trouble, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but the mouth of the wicked conceals violence. Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses

hope this helps !!!
 

TheslightestID

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“YOU” are the one that brought it up .....if you want an answer , ask the question.....You think I give a Rat’s Patootie about you trying to put me on trial or something? Go away.......

I posted the question and you were afraid to answer it, so now you want me to look it up and post it again...no fair. I think you are stalling...I've have seen this exact scenario many times before. Either answer it or don't.
 

BloodBought 1953

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Even in Ezekiel 33:12, it is written,

Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness;neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.


I find it very revealing that most of the Bible verses you quote to support your positions come from the OT......nothing wrong with that, per se.........it just shows you have a mindset of Legalism ( Believers are DEAD to the Law—- Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness— so why do you keep spouting off about it? )
The CROSS changed EVERYTHING—— you ever hear Of it?
 

BloodBought 1953

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I posted the question and you were afraid to answer it, so now you want me to look it up and post it again...no fair. I think you are stalling...I've have seen this exact scenario many times before. Either answer it or don't.


My world does not revolve around you....You can love me or hate me, but even my most ardent foes would be forced to admit that I NEVER avoid any questions ....if I did not answer your question, I may have “ thought” that I did, but I didn't Answer it to your satisfaction or maybe I took off on another tangent or maybe I just forgot it...... “YOU” , obviously were the one that cared enough about it to post it....so if you sincerely want an answer —- do the obvious thing —- ask the question again. You apparently “ cared” about it.....I could not care “ less !”
 

Paul Christensen

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It does speak of the born again believer....if he is a good tree, he will produce good fruit and cannot produce evil fruit.



So, you're saying that everyone is a false prophet...

I know that I sin less than I have ever sinned before now that I have been greatly sanctified.

I cannot claim to be perfected, otherwise my claim to perfection is disqualified (Philippians 3:13-15).

But I will say that I abide pretty consistently these days; and that the scriptures teach that the one who abideth in Christ "sinneth not" (1 John 3:6) for ever (1 John 2:17).



I will get back to you on this with something that I posted recently.


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And of course it is a straw man to say that I or @Paul Christensen is preaching a gospel that adds works to grace.

I will say that grace produces holiness of character; which is different from works.

Most assuredly, it would seem that works would result from holiness of character. However Ephesians 2:10 is clear that works are the result of salvation although they are not the catalyst for it.
My view is that a genuinely converted believer is a good tree, period.
If a person turns out to be a bad tree producing bad fruit, then it would suppose that he is not a genuine convert to Christ.

Someone adding works to faith would assume that the nature of the tree depends on one's works. This could mean that he could change from being a good tree to a bad one, and then back again according to the nature of his works. This is the type of gospel espoused by those who, on this forum, say that one's standing with Christ depends on whether they sin or not. They trumpet that willful sin (whatever that is) will cause one to become a bad tree.

This is the difference between a "performance-based" Christian (one who is depending on his good works to remain right with the God), and a "grace-based" Christian who is resting on the grace of God through faith to maintain his standing with Christ.
 

Paul Christensen

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My message will likely be different come Sunday......Even so, the results will be the same ....Some will actually “ get” Paul’s True Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing and will be Saved by it.To others that come to this Site .....the Stiff-Necked, The Legalist, The Religionists, and the Tares , it will just be another day because “ The Gospel is Foolishness to those that Perish...”
You guys will go on preaching your “ Jesus Saves—- B U T !” Perverted, False Gospels and the Blind shall continue to lead the Blind.....You live a “ Crippled Walk Of Faith”.....You are “ Fallen from Grace” and don’t even know it.Let us hope that this Condition , that shows a Heart that does not fully trust in the Blood Of Jesus for their Salvation , does not lead to Damnation..MANY excellent Bible Teachers say that it does.....it really is “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD”——- You Sing it , and all along , in your heart of hearts, you think it’s a lie. Hypocrite .
..
In all the 20 or so years I have been involved in forums, this issue of grace and works has come up time and time again, and the issues have been fully answered. But zealots never listen and learn. In spite of clear Scriptural examination to show where grace alone is appropriate, and where observance to the moral law is necessary, there are those, on this forum as well, who stick to an extreme position and pour condemnation on those who choose to take a more moderate position.

So we get extremists who take the ultra-Calvinist position (not actually taught by Calvin himself), and teach that once a person is saved by grace and faith, he can go on doing just as he likes and still be saved at the end.

The opposite end of the spectrum is the ultra-Arminian who says that coming to Christ is totally our choice, and that our continuing salvation consists of being totally sin free, and the moment we fall off the holiness wagon, we lose our salvation and have to repent and effectively be born-again all over again.

Those at either end of the spectrum spout condemnation to those at the other end. It's like watching the movie, "Sea Wolf" where two boats opposing each other had riflemen shooting at each other. On the forums I have been associated with, I have observed ultra-Calvinists sniping at ultra-Arminians, and vice versa, with the moderates who are not extreme either way caught in the crossfire.

What I see in the post that I am replying to, is total confusion between Justification and Sanctification. The truth, according to what I read in the New Testament, Justification depends on grace and faith alone apart from works. (If anyone doesn't know what Justification is all about, he shouldn't be coming on here and raving on about something he knows nothing about).

Sanctification is the development of the Justified believer as he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God, as he progresses towards being conformed to the image of Christ. This makes observance of God's moral law imperative. To continue on the Sanctification road, he must forsake the works of the flesh and do the works that are consistent with the fruit of the Spirit. This is called "walking in the Spirit".

Paul says that the Law is not abolished. He is talking about God's moral law, which is summarised in the Ten Commandments. But instead of the Law being essential for Justification as it was under the Old Covenant, supported by ceremonial law of sacrifice and the priesthood, under the New Covenant, the Law is now applied to the process of Sanctification in the believer. This is supported in the believer by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Of course, the understanding of this comes by comprehensive study of the whole Scriptures over many years, rather than just cherry picking one's favourite passages that suit him and ignoring the rest.
 
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Nancy

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In all the 20 or so years I have been involved in forums, this issue of grace and works has come up time and time again, and the issues have been fully answered. But zealots never listen and learn. In spite of clear Scriptural examination to show where grace alone is appropriate, and where observance to the moral law is necessary, there are those, on this forum as well, who stick to an extreme position and pour condemnation on those who choose to take a more moderate position.

So we get extremists who take the ultra-Calvinist position (not actually taught by Calvin himself), and teach that once a person is saved by grace and faith, he can go on doing just as he likes and still be saved at the end.

The opposite end of the spectrum is the ultra-Arminian who says that coming to Christ is totally our choice, and that our continuing salvation consists of being totally sin free, and the moment we fall off the holiness wagon, we lose our salvation and have to repent and effectively be born-again all over again.

Those at either end of the spectrum spout condemnation to those at the other end. It's like watching the movie, "Sea Wolf" where two boats opposing each other had riflemen shooting at each other. On the forums I have been associated with, I have observed ultra-Calvinists sniping at ultra-Arminians, and vice versa, with the moderates who are not extreme either way caught in the crossfire.

What I see in the post that I am replying to, is total confusion between Justification and Sanctification. The truth, according to what I read in the New Testament, Justification depends on grace and faith alone apart from works. (If anyone doesn't know what Justification is all about, he shouldn't be coming on here and raving on about something he knows nothing about).

Sanctification is the development of the Justified believer as he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God, as he progresses towards being conformed to the image of Christ. This makes observance of God's moral law imperative. To continue on the Sanctification road, he must forsake the works of the flesh and do the works that are consistent with the fruit of the Spirit. This is called "walking in the Spirit".

Paul says that the Law is not abolished. He is talking about God's moral law, which is summarised in the Ten Commandments. But instead of the Law being essential for Justification as it was under the Old Covenant, supported by ceremonial law of sacrifice and the priesthood, under the New Covenant, the Law is now applied to the process of Sanctification in the believer. This is supported in the believer by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Of course, the understanding of this comes by comprehensive study of the whole Scriptures over many years, rather than just cherry picking one's favourite passages that suit him and ignoring the rest.

Awesome post Paul.
 

TheslightestID

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You can love me or hate me, but even my most ardent foes would be forced to admit that I NEVER avoid any questions

You avoided this one.

All you need to do is follow the arrow by the user name in the quote box, that should take you right to it. If you are not willing to do that, then you don't want to find it.

And no one hates you, that is over doing it a bit, don't you think?
 

Paul Christensen

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You avoided this one.

All you need to do is follow the arrow by the user name in the quote box, that should take you right to it. If you are not willing to do that, then you don't want to find it.

And no one hates you, that is over doing it a bit, don't you think?
Some forum members take a more adversarial approach to discussion and debates than others. It doesn't matter what points are made, and adversarial person will find an argument against it. Some take a more aggressive adversarial approach that when they run out of answers to clear logical points they start aiming their silver bullets at the persons themselves. It is called kicking the player instead of the ball. When aggressive members start doing that there is no point continuing discussion or debate with them because they will keep repeating their points even though they have successfully been proved to be without secure foundation.

Just a piece of information to the wise among us, as you certainly are!
 

justbyfaith

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Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling,

I admit that I have not been perfect in obeying this scripture...however the fact that I have not been testifies to the fact that there have been those who have reviled me; not in return for my reviling: but out of the blue.

Even in Ezekiel 33:12, it is written,

Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness;neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.


I find it very revealing that most of the Bible verses you quote to support your positions come from the OT......nothing wrong with that, per se.........it just shows you have a mindset of Legalism ( Believers are DEAD to the Law—- Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness— so why do you keep spouting off about it? )
The CROSS changed EVERYTHING—— you ever hear Of it?

We have a righteousness of the Lord apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21), that it is righteousness indeed...

We do not obtain this righteousness by obeying a set of do's and don'ts...

We obtain it by receiving the Holy Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14) and then bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); against which there is no law.

Therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who are truly redeemed (Romans 8:4); who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

I utterly fail at keeping the letter of the law (see Galatians 6:13)...I will probably never wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin, or blow the trumpet at the new moon...

However, according to scripture (Romans 7:6), we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of what is written...

In walking not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

This is the type of gospel espoused by those who, on this forum, say that one's standing with Christ depends on whether they sin or not. They trumpet that willful sin (whatever that is) will cause one to become a bad tree.

It is not that willful sin will cause one to become a bad tree, per se...it is that if someone willfully sins, they show their true nature that in all reality they are a bad tree.

Our salvation is not based on outward behaviour...however, when salvation occurs, a person will be changed from the inside out.

Outward behaviour is merely the evidence of whether or not salvation exists within a person.

Paul says that the Law is not abolished. He is talking about God's moral law, which is summarised in the Ten Commandments. But instead of the Law being essential for Justification as it was under the Old Covenant, supported by ceremonial law of sacrifice and the priesthood, under the New Covenant, the Law is now applied to the process of Sanctification in the believer. This is supported in the believer by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It is not that we are sanctified through law-keeping; but rather that we are sanctified through bearing the fruit of the Spirit; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

You avoided this one.

All you need to do is follow the arrow by the user name in the quote box, that should take you right to it. If you are not willing to do that, then you don't want to find it.

And no one hates you, that is over doing it a bit, don't you think?

Just repeat the question.
 

BloodBought 1953

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All you need to do is follow the arrow by the user name in the quote box, that should take you right to it. If you are not willing to do that, then you don't want to find it.


When I constantly confess to being a computer “ dotard” , I don’t say it because I want to waste valuable computer ink.....I see no “ arrows “ and I honestly don’t know what you are talking about...
 

BloodBought 1953

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It is the true result of being saved...and if I did not have it, there would be reason to question as to whether I had genuinely been regenerated and renewed (see 2 Corinthians 13:5)



The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me when I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). And this means that I sin not as long as I abide in Christ (1 John 3:6).

When I allow Christ to live His life in me and through me, it is His perfect life that will be lived out by this vessel that the Lord has redeemed. If I take back my life, there is a question at that point as to whether I am still redeemed (Matthew 16:25).

If I sin, my previous righteousness may not very well help me in the day of my transgression (Ezekiel 33:12). Especially if I trust in my imputed righteousness and because of that I transgress out of presumption, all my righteousnesses shall not be remembered, but for my iniquity that I have committed, I shall die for it (Ezekiel 33:13). If I, being righteous, turn from my righteousness and commit iniquity, I shall even die thereby (Ezekiel 33:18).

Now, in the New Testament there is a provision for such iniquity. If I confess my sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive me of my sin and will cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

Even in Ezekiel 33:12, it is written,

Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

If, after committing wickedness, and I die, I turn from my wickedness, confessing my sin...I shall not fall thereby (because of my wickedness) in the day that I turn from my wickedness; because I repented of my sin and laid it at the foot of the Cross.


You verify what I accuse you of —— “ Lucky Repentance” Trumps “ Everything” when it comes to Salvation.....Love for God? Justification by Faith? The GRACE of God that “ supposedly” was Stronger than Sin? Pfffttt ......get outta here with all of that stuff! It’s all about having the SUPER MEMORY to recall ALL of your millions of Sins and the LUCK to have the presence of mind to make SURE they have all been admitted to and apologized for before you “ kick the bucket”
Somebody once said “ Your God is too small”...... “Yours” is...... Mine is not..... “Your” God is NOT the God of the Bible.....” It is by GRACE that you are Saved, through Faith”......The only “ Repentance “ That “ YOU” need is to Repent Of your False , Perverted Gospel Addition That “Lucky Repentance Saves”.....REPENT!
 

Paul Christensen

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We obtain it by receiving the Holy Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14) and then bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23); against which there is no law. Therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who are truly redeemed (Romans 8:4); who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
I agree.

I utterly fail at keeping the letter of the law (see Galatians 6:13)...I will probably never wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin, or blow the trumpet at the new moon... However, according to scripture (Romans 7:6), we are no longer bound to the letter but are obedient to the spirit of what is written... In walking not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).
Although the ceremonial law of the Old Covenant passed into history at the death of Jesus on the cross, God's moral law (the law He lives by) is still very much in force. When we do something that is an infraction of that law, the Holy Spirit clearly lets us know in our conscience. In fact, the Holy Spirit rebooted our conscience when we were born again of the Spirit. The unconverted person's conscience is seared through constant sinning, therefore, gives an inaccurate "reading" of what is right or wrong. This is why every unconverted person does what it right in his or her own eyes because the conscience is calibrated to the sinful life where evil is seen as good and good as evil. But when conversion to Christ takes place, the Holy Spirit comes in, resets the conscience and calibrates it to God's moral law, so that we get accurate readings of what is good and what is evil.

When we fall off the holiness wagon, which we do at times, because the flesh wars against the Spirit, we get a "what's up" in our conscience that draws our attention to something that is wrong, and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we put things right through confession, cleansing and forsaking. So it is not as you say, following the letter of the law as a set of external rules, as some religious groups impose on people in the name of "holiness", but it is walking in the Spirit with a sensitive conscience which either approves of what we are doing, or warns us that we are straying off the straight and narrow. It is rather like walking on a path with electric fences on each side. When we start to stray off the path we get a jolt that puts us back on the path again.

It is not that willful sin will cause one to become a bad tree, per se...it is that if someone willfully sins, they show their true nature that in all reality they are a bad tree.
The expression "willful sin" can be inexact and can cover everything we do that we know is wrong. But we know something we do is wrong because our godly conscience tells us so. But we need to qualify the expression with "continued" so that continued repetition of willful sin while ignoring the "jolts" of the conscience can show a badness in the tree that needs to be put right by a genuine conversion to Christ. But a "good tree" although having struggles with conscience, will capitulate to the conscience eventually and put things right with God.

Our salvation is not based on outward behaviour...however, when salvation occurs, a person will be changed from the inside out. Outward behaviour is merely the evidence of whether or not salvation exists within a person.
Agreed!

It is not that we are sanctified through law-keeping; but rather that we are sanctified through bearing the fruit of the Spirit; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).
When we are walking in the Spirit, we are guided by our conscience calibrated with the Holy Spirit. God's moral law is written on the fleshly tables of our hearts, not as external rules written on stone or rule-posters on the wall.
 
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Paul Christensen

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You verify what I accuse you of —— “ Lucky Repentance” Trumps “ Everything” when it comes to Salvation.....Love for God? Justification by Faith? The GRACE of God that “ supposedly” was Stronger than Sin? Pfffttt ......get outta here with all of that stuff! It’s all about having the SUPER MEMORY to recall ALL of your millions of Sins and the LUCK to have the presence of mind to make SURE they have all been admitted to and apologized for before you “ kick the bucket”
Somebody once said “ Your God is too small”...... “Yours” is...... Mine is not..... “Your” God is NOT the God of the Bible.....” It is by GRACE that you are Saved, through Faith”......The only “ Repentance “ That “ YOU” need is to Repent Of your False , Perverted Gospel Addition That “Lucky Repentance Saves”.....REPENT!

Well, that is a discussion stopper!