Contradiction Or Paradox?

BarnyFife said:

This is not a debate thread. I can't keep it from becoming one, of course, but let the record show that it was never my purpose for starting it.

I believe that most disagreements stem from either a refusal or lack of recognition that the solution involves accepting that God has the power to claim things which, if originating from humans, would be considered talking out of both sides of one's mouth.

For instance:

***And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved. (1 Corinthians 11:19


***Ephesians 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


I have chosen a mild example to start. But I have no doubt that the question of unity versus division could be debated at length on this forum. In this example, it seems to be that division is a temporarily necessary reality, but that unity should be the ultimate goal of the church.

I personally find the presence of paradox in Scripture quite fascinating.

Does anyone else have any examples of passages that seem to contradict each other, but are actually both quite true?

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There are many paradoxes in the Bible, but these only SEEM to be contradictions because our human minds can’t grasp the whole truth. If you read Acts 2, you will see that believers were united in the Holy Spirit. Without God’s Spirit working in and through us, we cannot have unity. But as we submit to the Spirit individually, we experience unity of the Spirit within the body.

amadeus said:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:
They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God.? Lev 21:1,7

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son." Hosea 1:2-3

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" II Cor 6:14-15

To understand and accept it all as true perhaps a different understanding is necessary as to what the scriptures are and what the Word of God is?

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It only goes to show that the Lord is not limited; not even by things that He has previously spoken.

The Lord decided to go outside the box in order to proclaim a specific message to Israel; He told one of His prophets to basically violate the law so that His message would be even more noticeable to those who are sticklers for the law.

The fact that Hosea's prophecies came to pass indicate to all that he was a true prophet.

But the Lord will sometimes tell a man to do things that may bring hardship or disparagement from other people; in order to test that man.

The Lord also had Jesus violate the sabbath day law (Exodus 20:10, John 5:17-18) in order that He might give us the message that was later identified by Paul in Romans 7:6.

justbyfaith said:

The Lord also had Jesus violate the sabbath day law (Exodus 20:10, John 5:17-18) in order that He might give us the message that was later identified by Paul in Romans 7:6.

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Untrue.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

However, moreso, looking at the text [John 5:18], this word for “broken” is ελυενG3089 V-IAI-3S [Grk. Trans. = eleun] and, generally meaning 'loosed' [as in, 'untied', 'unbound', 'set free'], can be seen in other passages, like:

Therefore did Jesus “destroy” the Sabbath? No. He clearly defends His position from Scripture upholding the Sabbath.

Did Jesus “dissolve” the Sabbath? Again, No, otherwise why defend His actions from Scripture about the appropriateness of what was permissible in/on the Sabbath?

Did Jesus actually “break” the Sabbath? No, for that would have been sin [1 John 3:4, etc], and would have been contrary to Jesus' own mission as stated in Prophecy [Isaiah 42:21], in which He would “magnify” the Law and make it “honourable”, not dishonourable or lessened.

Therefore, what does this word “broken” mean in the context of the Pharisaical understanding? Jesus ignored their man-made traditions which placed heavy “burdens” upon Sabbath, which God never gave:

Jesus therefore indeed “broke” the Sabbath free of these horrendous selfish regulations which the Pharisees, etc had burdened it with, but never ever would break the Sabbath as commanded to all men [the Sabbath commandment even speaks of Gentiles and beasts of the earth, and nowhere does it say “Jew” in the Commandment, Exodus 20:8-11]. In effect, what Jesus did was give rest back to the people on Sabbath. He loosed their restrictions, untied those toilsome knots, and set it free to be obeyed in righteousness. Notice Isaiah 58, even contexually in regards the Sabbath:

amadeus said:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:
They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God.? Lev 21:1,7

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son." Hosea 1:2-3 ...

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Context Lev 21:1,7 is that of the Levites, or priesthood ("sons of Aaron"). Hosea wasn't a priest or a Levite, neither a Son of Aaron. No contradiction. It is simply a matter of actually reading each "word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD".

amadeus said:

...
"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son." Hosea 1:2-3

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" II Cor 6:14-15

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Hosea was a believer among the people of Israel, and Israelite. The "whore" was also of the people Israel:


Again, no contradiction.

justbyfaith said:

It only goes to show that the Lord is not limited ...

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The LORD is limited to His character, and will not transgress against it. In other words, the LORD will not do evil (Genesis 18:23,25). The LORD will not lie, &c (Numbers 23:19). The LORD will not break His covenant (Psalms 89:34). The LORD will not use the means of the enemy (Jude 1:9). Thus the LORD is self-limited (meaning bound to His own character).

@ReChoired,

The letter of the sabbath law states that you shall not do any work on the sabbath day (Exodus 20:10).

In John 5:16-17, it becomes clear that Jesus is claiming that His Father was working and that so was He on that particular sabbath day.

Was Jesus lying?
.
.
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No, Jesus did not sin in violating the sabbath; because He was the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec; and with a change in priesthood (from Levi to Melchizedec) came also a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12).

We are no longer bound by the letter of the law but are rather, now, obedient to to the spirit of what is written in the law (Romans 7:6).

This is the message that the Father was bringing forth when He had Jesus violate the sabbath in John 5:16-18.

I bring to your attention the case of Corrie Ten Boom, whose family lied to the Nazis in order to preserve the lives of the Jewish people that they were harboring.

In that instance, she did indeed violate a standard of God; however in doing so she was choosing the lesser of two evils. The principle of love is a greater principle than that of truth. Therefore she and her family were justified in lying to those who, if she had told them the truth, would have murdered the people that they were protecting.

So then, we are not bound any longer by what the letter of the law requires; but if we have been filled with the Holy Spirit we will be obedient to what the spirit of the law requires.

Jesus, in healing the lame man on the sabbath day, was in fact doing the same as what the law required; in that He, as God, was pulling a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath day. This is required by the law, that if you see your neighbor's sheep caught in a pit, you are to immediately pull it out (I have forgotten the reference; but it is in the Pentateuch).

So then, the Lord was in fact obeying one aspect of the law even though He was violating the letter of another aspect of the same law of Moses. He chose the greater of two goods and the lesser of two evils. He truly obeyed the law as it was originally meant to be obeyed.

So then, again, the Lord, in coming as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec, came not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life.

His life is basically indestructible; and therefor His violation of the letter had no capability of bringing Him into condemnation.

We likewise, have been delivered from the law so that there is no condemnation even through we may violate the letter of the law (Romans 7:6). However, that the Spirit dwells within us means that we will most definitely be obedient to the spirit of the law (see Romans 8:7); which entails, for the most part, not violating the letter. However, in such cases where two laws conflict, the Holy Spirit will lead us to do the greater good or avoid the greater evil, every time.

ReChoired said:

The LORD is limited to His character, and will not transgress against it. In other words, the LORD will not do evil (Genesis 18:23,25). The LORD will not lie, &c (Numbers 23:19). The LORD will not break His covenant (Psalms 89:34). The LORD will not use the means of the enemy (Jude 1:9). Thus the LORD is self-limited (meaning bound to His own character).

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Why did the Lord violate His own standard of the law, as @amadeus pointed out (Contradiction Or Paradox?), when He told Hosea to choose a wife of whoredoms for himself? In doing that He was basically telling Hosea to violate the letter of the law in order to proclaim a message to the people of Israel.

justbyfaith said:

Why did the Lord violate His own standard of the law, as @amadeus pointed out (Contradiction Or Paradox?), when He told Hosea to choose a wife of whoredoms for himself? In doing that He was basically telling Hosea to violate the letter of the law in order to proclaim a message to the people of Israel.

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Answer Part 01: Contradiction Or Paradox?

Answer Part 02: Contradiction Or Paradox?

Yes, it is a debate thread. You knew that the moment you posted it. Now, do you want to argue that it is not a debate thread?

justbyfaith said:

The letter of the sabbath law states that you shall not do any work on the sabbath day (Exodus 20:10).

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Read more carefully. What type of "work" is Exodus 20:10 speaking of in its context that is not to be done on the Sabbath? For in reading carefully, it distinguishes between work that is "holy" vs that which isn't or "thy work", which is the common work.

justbyfaith said:

So then, we are not bound any longer by what the letter of the law requires; but if we have been filled with the Holy Spirit we will be obedient to what the spirit of the law requires.

Jesus, in healing the lame man on the sabbath day, was in fact doing the same as what the law required; in that He, as God, was pulling a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath day. This is required by the law, that if you see your neighbor's sheep caught in a pit, you are to immediately pull it out (I have forgotten the reference; but it is in the Pentateuch).

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You have a contradiction. You stated that "Jesus, in healing the lame man on the sabbath day, was in fact doing the same as what the law required", and in the sentence before it said, "we are not bound any longer by what the letter of the law requires", and yet Jesus was fulfilling the exact letter of the law, yes?

Btw, the whole not adhere to the letter of the law, but only the 'spirit' of the law is blatant spiritualism. Think about it.

One cannot possibly fulfill the 'spirit' without also at the exact same time fulfilling the letter.

ReChoired said:

Context Lev 21:1,7 is that of the Levites, or priesthood ("sons of Aaron"). Hosea wasn't a priest or a Levite, neither a Son of Aaron. No contradiction. It is simply a matter of actually reading each "word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD".

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My bad. I had heard with my ears at one point that Hosea was a priest. Perhaps that information is hidden someplace in the Bible where I have now been unable to find it; but until or unless I do find it, I concede the point.

BarnyFife said:

Absolutely not, and you have misrepresented my intentions, if you care to know.

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So, you don't want to argue that it is a debate thread?

I didn't misrepresent your intentions. You said:

"I can't keep it from becoming one, of course, but let the record show that it was never my purpose for starting it."

I said:

"Yes, it is a debate thread. You knew that the moment you posted it."

ReChoired said:

You have a contradiction. You stated that "Jesus, in healing the lame man on the sabbath day, was in fact doing the same as what the law required", and in the sentence before it said, "we are not bound any longer by what the letter of the law requires", and yet Jesus was fulfilling the exact letter of the law, yes?

Btw, the whole not adhere to the letter of the law, but only the 'spirit' of the law is blatant spiritualism. Think about it.

One cannot possibly fulfill the 'spirit' without a the exact same time fulfilling the letter.

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You missed my point.

Fact is, Jesus healed on the sabbath day, even thought that was a violation of the letter of the law; because it was obedience to something greater in the law, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

I said that obeying the spirit of what the law requires will, for the most part, be obedience to the letter. But that where two laws require something different, the Holy Spirit will lead us to do the greater of two goods or the lesser of two evils.