Contradiction Or Paradox?

amadeus · Dec 5, 2020

justbyfaith said:
It only goes to show that the Lord is not limited; not even by things that He has previously spoken.

Hmmm? I do believe that God having spoken has limited Himself in some things. For example when He has made a promise to man, He cannot break His promise. What God has spoken is the correct answer for each and every situation which can happen. We cannot do so speak like that in our fleshly flawed ways, but God can. God has an unchangeable overall plan for mankind from day one in the first creation until the end of time. God does not change His mind. Rather man may change what his own reward or chastisement or curse is in accord with what God has already spoken. God effectively spoke it all before the foundation of the world. Our inability to easily see or understand it is because the way we are bound up in time. God is not so bound by time, but by His Word He is. The following are a few verses which indicate me that God's Word is established. It cannot be changed... especially not by Him. We cannot change either and if we try to... then we may indeed be in trouble with God.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

They natural children of Jacob limited God by their disobedience. When they went against His right hand, his left hand curses were invoked. Even God was limited by His own Word.

"He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations." Psalm 105:8

"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee" Psalm 119:11

"So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word." Psalm 119:42

"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalm 119:160

The Lord decided to go outside the box in order to proclaim a specific message to Israel; He told one of His prophets to basically violate the law so that His message would be even more noticeable to those who are sticklers for the law.

The fact that Hosea's prophecies came to pass indicate to all that he was a true prophet.

But the Lord will sometimes tell a man to do things that may bring hardship or disparagement from other people; in order to test that man.

Unlike men, God does not change His overall plan from day to day and moment to moment. Everything was in place and spoken when the first man was created. God had spoken His Word for or against every situation of any man and the results of any action by a man were already prepared by what God had spoken.

marks · Dec 5, 2020

ReChoired said:
Jesus, acting as the priest would, and even as Deity, seeing through and through, in matter of the plague of sin, pronounces the man "clean". The touch at the same time, reinforces the words spoken.

Exactly. At His touch the man was cleansed, so Jesus touched a clean man.

Much love!

Prayer Warrior · Dec 5, 2020

Grailhunter said:
Not my first rodeo...I have been through this....
If you can imagine the students in college shifting to apologist mode after being confronted with this.
There are various explanations for some of these but, even in that depending on the beliefs of others, no matter what people are not going to like some of the explanations.
The explanations themselves end up being personnel. In other words they have to resolve the contradictions to their own satisfaction. Anyone that tries to offer explanations will just get ridiculed.

As Rechoired said, No one needs any degrees in theology to answer any or all of what you have posted. They only need the KJB, the Holy Ghost, and the ability to read and consider carefully. Apparently he does not think that over the last 2000 years and 30,000 denominations that they have come to a consensus on this, because they did not consult with or were not filled with the Holy Spirit. He is the only one filled with the Holy Spirit, and thus his interpretation is the only correct one...and he is not alone.

Depending how deep you dig into this topic, it get complicated real quick. And I can tell you where it leads....Faith dependent on human concepts of perfection.

It’s not a rodeo at all. I can only conclude from all you’re saying that it’s your goal to disparage the Bible by making it appear to be very flawed. You rarely, if ever, offer explanations for what appear to be inaccuracies even though there are explanations available for those who have time to dig (as you say.)

ReChoired · Dec 5, 2020

Grailhunter said:
As Rechoired said, No one needs any degrees in theology to answer any or all of what you have posted. They only need the KJB, the Holy Ghost, and the ability to read and consider carefully. Apparently he does not think that over the last 2000 years and 30,000 denominations that they have come to a consensus on this

I never said that there were not in some instances multiple ways to arrive at a non-contradictory conclusion, and in many cases with lineage, it usually revolves around relationship of persons to this or that person, or to this or that way of speaking.

Over the last 2000 years (and before that for the OT), there is indeed consensus that there are "NO" contradictions in the actual word of God.

I also never said I am the only one with the KJB, the Holy Ghost or the ability to read. I, in fact, enjoy most of Ruckman's abilities, though there are some issues with some of his theological positions which colours some of the answers, which I could not outright accept, but have another way in which the areas reconcile that do not include his theological position (he taught there was a race of men on earth before Adam, and that is not scriptural).

So, it is not as you make it out to be. I am not the end-all-be-all source for contradiction annihilation. I am simply one of the many defenders of what God stated about His word.

amadeus · Dec 5, 2020

ReChoired said:
Context Lev 21:1,7 is that of the Levites, or priesthood ("sons of Aaron"). Hosea wasn't a priest or a Levite, neither a Son of Aaron. No contradiction. It is simply a matter of actually reading each "word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD".

While I agree essentially with what you have derived from you reading, I do not agree that it is simply a matter of actually reading each word. An atheist and many Christians could read the same verses carefully and still miss the point that you made. I purposely quoted verse 1 as well as verse 7 so that "the Levites, or priesthood" would be included. You already understood the point or caught it in this reading.

The only seemingly apparent contradiction for me initially was between what God told Hosea to do and what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. To me that is also not really a contradiction, but I believe it would appear to be one to many people!

ReChoired · Dec 5, 2020

amadeus said:
While I agree essentially with what you have derived from you reading, I do not agree that it is simply a matter of actually reading each word. An atheist and many Christians could read the same verses carefully and still miss the point that you made. I purposely quoted verse 1 as well as verse 7 so that "the Levites, or priesthood" would be included. You already understood the point or caught it in this reading.

With you, if it is not one thing it is another. I wasn't saying that the Holy Ghost isn't needed. I was speaking to Christians, among Christians (context - yea, that thing that most neglect). Atheists are not in view.

amadeus said:
The only seemingly apparent contradiction for me initially was between what God told Hosea to do and what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. To me that is also not really a contradiction, but I believe it would appear to be one to many people!

Are you speaking about "fornication"? Hosea wasn't fornicating, nor was he an adulterer, even if his wife was. There is no rule against that, and there is even "mercy" involved when there is (meaning he doesn't have to divorce, even though there is legal grounds to do so).

There is no contradiction there either.

Hosea was faithful. What his wife was, is irrelevant, if that is the point you make about Corinthians.

Grailhunter · Dec 5, 2020

Prayer Warrior said:
I can only conclude from all that you’re saying that it’s your goal to disparage the Bible by making it appear to be very flawed.

Well in fact it is your conclusion that is flawed.
My only goal was to answer a question. Offended by facts...it is one of the reason people seek alternate realities or put their head in the sand. Taking these contradictions as a challenge can lead to a better understanding of Christianity. But still it will be in many ways a personel understanding of Christianity.

amadeus · Dec 5, 2020

ReChoired said:
Hosea was a believer among the people of Israel, and Israelite. The "whore" was also of the people Israel:

Hos 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
Hos 1:3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

Again, no contradiction.

Is it more important to please God or to win an argument. I was not arguing with you or anyone else. Did you read the last sentence in the OP carefully?

@BarnyFife said:
"Does anyone else have any examples of passages that seem to contradict each other, but are actually both quite true?"

To many people there certainly would seem to be contradictions... even if it does not seem so to you!

WaterSong · Dec 5, 2020

I would submit that of course this would become a debate thread due to the subject under discussion. For each one of us to posit the argument, this seems to contradict but is actually quite true, each one of us will likely have an opinion on any passages as pertains to the latter.
Debate isn't bad. Bad attitudes during a debate is bad.

Stay friendly people.

These are two passages that I don't believe qualify as, turns out to be true. What do you all think?
1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

amigo de christo · Dec 5, 2020

Prayer Warrior said:
It’s not a rodeo at all. I can only conclude from all you’re saying that it’s your goal to disparage the Bible by making it appear to be very flawed. You rarely, if ever, offer explanations for what appear to be inaccuracies even though there are explanations available for those who have time to dig (as you say.)

SOUND IT OUT SISTER . any time folks come trying to make the bible seem errneous , ITS NOT GOOD . ITS NOT GOOD .
THEY have another agenda . I aint sit under no popes or any other who clings not to scriptures . LET folks think what they will aabout me .
BUT by grace i do know the truth . Paul , peter , were huge on teaching that church about STAYING IN SOUND HOLY DOCTRINE .
LET NONE SWAY US O THERWISE . BIBILES OPEN TO THE END . FROM THAT WE TEST ALL WHO DO TEACH .

ReChoired · Dec 5, 2020

amadeus said:
Is it more important to please God or to win an argument. I was not arguing with you or anyone else. Did you read the last sentence in the OP carefully?

@BarnyFife said:
"Does anyone else have any examples of passages that seem to contradict each other, but are actually both quite true?"

To many people there certainly would seem to be contradictions... even if it does not seem so to you!

I assume you are asking rhetorically again. So ...

Prayer Warrior · Dec 5, 2020

Grailhunter said:
Well in fact it is your conclusion that is flawed.
My only goal was to answer a question. Offended by facts...it is one of the reason people seek alternate realities or put their head in the sand. Taking these contradictions as a challenge can lead to a better understanding of Christianity. But still it will be in many ways a personel understanding of Christianity.

Well, you’re assuming that they ARE contradictions or inaccuracies, and you don’t lift a finger to prove otherwise. No doubt, there are many Bible scholars with Ph.D.’s who have done it. I’d better find some of their writings.

As for reality, what’s real and true is what GOD says is real and true.

Grailhunter · Dec 5, 2020

ReChoired said:
Over the last 2000 years (and before that for the OT), there is indeed consensus that there are "NO" contradictions in the actual word of God.

Can you say that with your head in the sand?

ReChoired said:
So, it is not as you make it out to be. I am not the end-all-be-all source for contradiction annihilation. I am simply one of the many defenders of what God stated about His word.

As I said this topic would lead to perfection by the standards of man. And this is a common problem....The Bible is not God or a God. Your faith should be in God. No matter how you cut it, men wrote the Bible...it is about God and about the Word of God. But a man cannot write the "Word of God" that can only come out or from God. They can write what God said. But no matter what, expecting perfection from men is a flawed expectation. The concept of "the Word" is a highly evolved theological concept...a man writing does not have the power of God and a man writing what he understands is not going to be perfect.

amigo de christo · Dec 5, 2020

Prayer Warrior said:
It’s not a rodeo at all. I can only conclude from all you’re saying that it’s your goal to disparage the Bible by making it appear to be very flawed. You rarely, if ever, offer explanations for what appear to be inaccuracies even though there are explanations available for those who have time to dig (as you say.)

THAT was a fast quick eye sister . I have watched many teachers do this . they come into churches .
they tell you they support the bible and all , but then they ever so slowly start making it seem like its just not quite that perfect
And before too long , They GOT that church and they start teaching more and more what THEY BELEIVE . IT has happend a lot .
THE DEVIL knows how to come . He appears as though he is of us , but he sets his men up and they in time
slowly but surely downplay the bible . NEVER saying at first anything bad about it . BUT JUST planting doubts .
IT WORKS A LOT . i have watched churches fall big time over the years . THE POPES are masters at it , so are many cults .
ITS THE REASON why we have so many different thoughts. HAD WE JUST CLUNG to the simplicty of the bible , we would have grown
and matured up , that no man would could sway us . They are SLICK TOO SISTER . they know enough about that bible
TO MAKE THEM HIGHLY DANGEROUS , to unlearned and unstable folks . AND THEY WORK big time in this day and age .
YOU STICK TO That BIBLE . we might not know it all , BUT WE STICKING TO JESUS , TO GOD , TO that BIBLE . WHICH
does contain the actual HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD .

amadeus · Dec 5, 2020

ReChoired said:
With you, if it is not one thing it is another. I wasn't saying that the Holy Ghost isn't needed. I was speaking to Christians, among Christians (context - yea, that thing that most neglect). Atheists are not in view.

Are you speaking about "fornication"? Hosea wasn't fornicating, nor was he an adulterer, even if his wife was. There is no rule against that, and there is even "mercy" involved when there is (meaning he doesn't have to divorce, even though there is legal grounds to do so).

There is no contradiction there either.

Hosea was faithful. What his wife was, is irrelevant, if that is the point you make about Corinthians.

You are still insisting on arguing the point. I am not. You misunderstood my exact meaning and presumed that I misunderstood yours. Perhaps I did. I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

Grailhunter · Dec 5, 2020

Prayer Warrior said:
As for reality, what’s real and true is what GOD says is real and true.

When you hear it from His mouth...real and true. But what man says or what man wrote is not going to be perfect. The Bible as a whole contains real truth...what we read from the Bible is someone's description and some times interpretations of that.

If you want to believe the Bible is perfect it is as accurate as many beliefs. Beliefs, truth, facts...where do they meet?

amadeus · Dec 5, 2020

ReChoired said:
I assume you are asking rhetorically again. So ...

Exactly! You should learn how to share your knowledge with others IMHO.

amadeus · Dec 5, 2020

BarnyFife said:
Well, so much for a debate-less participation thread.

What you wanted was a polite loving discussion and unfortunately it is easier to ask for it than to get it. Sorry!

Grailhunter · Dec 5, 2020

amigo de christo said:
THAT was a fast quick eye sister . I have watched many teachers do this . they come into churches .
they tell you they support the bible and all , but then they ever so slowly start making it seem like its just not quite that perfect
And before too long , They GOT that church and they start teaching more and more what THEY BELEIVE . IT has happend a lot .
THE DEVIL knows how to come . He appears as though he is of us , but he sets his men up and they in time
slowly but surely downplay the bible . NEVER saying at first anything bad about it . BUT JUST planting doubts .
IT WORKS A LOT . i have watched churches fall big time over the years . THE POPES are masters at it , so are many cults .
ITS THE REASON why we have so many different thoughts. HAD WE JUST CLUNG to the simplicty of the bible , we would have grown
and matured up , that no man would could sway us . They are SLICK TOO SISTER . they know enough about that bible
TO MAKE THEM HIGHLY DANGEROUS , to unlearned and unstable folks . AND THEY WORK big time in this day and age .
YOU STICK TO That BIBLE . we might not know it all , BUT WE STICKING TO JESUS , TO GOD , TO that BIBLE . WHICH
does contain the actual HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD .

Again facts are facts. Your whining is not going to change the truth. Something intelligent please. If you want to contest if the scriptures I presented exist or not...bring it on. Other than that they stand. You not liking it, does not change anything, or condemn me for telling the truth. I don't like it mommy! Tell it to the hand!

amigo de christo · Dec 5, 2020

justbyfaith said:
You missed my point.

Fact is, Jesus healed on the sabbath day, even thought that was a violation of the letter of the law; because it was obedience to something greater in the law, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself".

I said that obeying the spirit of what the law requires will, for the most part, be obedience to the letter. But that where two laws require something different, the Holy Spirit will lead us to do the greater of two goods or the lesser of two evils.

NO . HE did not contradict the sabbath by healing . BY LAW they could cut , circumsize a male child on the eight day
IF that day fell on the sabbath , THEY HAD to cirumcise the child to keep the law . IT was not unlawful therefore to cirumcise
a child if it fell on the sabbath . AND JESUS making a man WHOLE on sabbath , was not contradicting it eitther .
LOVE dont trangress the law my friend , IT FULLFILLS the law . IT was no trangression to cirmcumcise or heal a man on the sabbath .

Contradiction Or Paradox?

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