The Fourth beast of Revelation

David H. said:

Both heaven and hell, and the Spiritual world in general are on a higher dimension than we can see, and we can only see shadows of these things. The Demonic world is invisible to most save those who are given the eyesalve of God to see. The same can be said of the light of the Holy Spirit, which is invisible to most, only in extreme examples are some given eyes to see this such as the apostles who were present at the transfiguration, and the Jews who saw Moses radiating from being in the presence of God, Or Elisha seeing Elijah ascend into the whirlwind. In that respect the Sagan video is an interesting take on this, But we are not speaking of physical dimensions, but the Spiritual world, where Jesus could walk through walls, or appear and disappear at will to Apostles and eat with them or speak with them.

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We are 3 dimensional beings without a spirit so similar to the 2 dimensional theory, but not quite. We do not have our spirit, so cannot enjoy the full 3 dimensional aspect of creation. Time is the fourth dimension. Carl Sagan is just plain wrong. We know up and down, and that is not the issue. We cannot see past time.

What we call spiritual is not a dimension, because dimension deals with physical space. We cannot see what is spiritual because God took that ability away from us, when He took away the spirit. Spirit is just as physical as physical is, and still not a dimension.

Yes there is way more to creation than what we experience, because of sin, we are put into a place of limited experience.

MrBebe said:

...
“WHY the LION is the MOUTH; WHY the LEOPARD (actually a "TIGER") is the BODY; and WHY the BEAR is the FEET” – not yet studied. Can you share a thought on these?

Here’s how I understand the 7 heads of Rev 17 as “kings” and as “mountains” based on the Bible only:
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Hi MB,
To understand Revelation, you must start with Daniel, -- as evidenced by the Lion/Bear/Leopard-(actually a TIGER). And so Chapter 2 provides FIVE world empires per Vs 45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, where the Clay is called a "Divided Kingdom" as evidence today by Three Superpowers. And where we know that FIVE ≠ FOUR, we MUST conclude that the FOUR represent the "Divided Kingdom" participants:

And so we have between Chapts. 2 & 7:

and when combined with Rev. 17 we get:


... and to your question:

It's totally obvious, but people who don't have a clue can confuse the most simple of concepts.

But let me ask you, -- are you familiar with China? Do you know that where the U.S. has Three Branches of Government, that China has Four Branches (Four Heads)? And where in 1975 Premier Chou En-lai conceived their "Four Modernizations"? Chou En-lai was with Mao in 1948 and after Mao's failed 1968 "Great Proletarian Leap" which put China a decade backwards, in 1975 Chou En-lai announced the "Four Modernizations" which included: Agriculture; Manufacturing; Science & Technology; & Military (Four Wings) which have propelled China into an economic Superpower.

Deut. 18:22 says that if whatever prophecies physically come to pass, that they're of GOD, -- and so we must combine what we see with what we read.

Bobby Jo

It seems to me that many people have not identified who or what the entity of the 4 beasts are of Daniel 7:1-12 and particularly verse 7:2. Also verse 7:17b also suggests that the 4 beasts are not kingdoms or empires as many believe but are individual kings and that, as kings, they have a crown that they wear. If the beasts are individual kings, they can have armies that operate within their respective given dominions, but the beasts that we can observe through the passing of history are a manifestation of the respective four beasts which rises up out of the sea of humanity. We can identify from our past history, the manifestations of the beasts that have ebbed and flowed through our history as different people groups, kingdoms and empires have risen up to inhabit the respective dominions of the four beasts during the different time periods of mankind.

Even Paul in Ephesians 6:12 gives us a clue as to who the beasts are and where they have come from.

But this rational only gets in the way of a good story for many people.

Shalom

Douggg said:

v11 is a contiunation of v10. It is talking about 7 kings in v10. And the beast in v 11, will be the eighth (king implied). And is of the 7.

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Good day brother,

v11 is a continuation of v10 – that is true, but, v10 is talking about the kings while v11 is talking about the beast and the “eight thing” is told from the future stage of the beast and not from the clause of the future king.

David H. said:

I am not ignoring it I am saying it is not true and right. You are comparing apples and oranges, Yes, both are fruit, both carry seeds, grow on trees, are attached to branches, yet they are different fruit. The entirety of the text tells us these two beasts rule at different times and are empowered by different sources, and have a different result when fighting the saints, and even if the Aramaic analysis "suggests" a similar origin, they are still different beasts.

The Fallen one do not like to hear of their demise and destruction and judgment to come, but it is the saints that will judge them and there is no denying that, and this text is showing you their "perdition". The Harlot religions of the world negate teaching this, because they will unite with these fallen ones in the end, That being the final delusion of these peoples. I suspect by your name that you know all this already, but just do not want to admit it??

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Good day brother,

There are instances in the Bible where people tend to compare/mix apples and oranges but that is not the case with the 1st beast of Rev 13 and the scarlet beast of Rev 17 – it’s looking at an object through different lenses. These lenses are the themes of the sections or chapters they belong to. The theme of chapters 12-13 is: The Woman/Saints and the Dragon/Beasts. The theme of chapters 17-19:10 is: The Harlot/Beast and the Lamb/Bride. That is why they seem to tell different events but by mixing the pictures taken by different lenses, the picture becomes clear or clearer. And besides, their similarities outweigh what seem to be their differences.

I’m just a student of the Scriptures who knows little and I agree with some of your ideas. There are persons in the Internet that also use the name I’m using in this forum.

Bobby Jo said:

Hi MB,
To understand Revelation, you must start with Daniel, -- as evidenced by the Lion/Bear/Leopard-(actually a TIGER). And so Chapter 2 provides FIVE world empires per Vs 45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, where the Clay is called a "Divided Kingdom" as evidence today by Three Superpowers. And where we know that FIVE ≠ FOUR, we MUST conclude that the FOUR represent the "Divided Kingdom" participants:

And so we have between Chapts. 2 & 7:

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "Divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard (actually a TIGER), China
-- 8. Dreadful, United Nations
​

and when combined with Rev. 17 we get:

1. Gold, Babylon -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persia-- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Greece-- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Rome-- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "Divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.-- 5 of 5 has fallen from pre-eminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- one "is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a TIGER), China -- is "yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. Dreadful, United Nations -- "was and is not" because it has NO Populous, NO Geography, NO Army, - it's a Paper Entitiy​

... and to your question:

The Lion, U.K./U.S., is the MOUTH because of their proficiency in Trade, Finance, Science, & Technology; the Leopard (actually a TIGER), China, is the BODY because it has the most mass of Population; and the Bear, Russia, is the FEET because it has the most land mass, -- where the U.S., Canada, China have some 3M sq. miles, Russia has 8M sq. miles.

​

It's totally obvious, but people who don't have a clue can confuse the most simple of concepts.

But let me ask you, -- are you familiar with China? Do you know that where the U.S. has Three Branches of Government, that China has Four Branches (Four Heads)? And where in 1975 Premier Chou En-lai conceived their "Four Modernizations"? Chou En-lai was with Mao in 1948 and after Mao's failed 1968 "Great Proletarian Leap" which put China a decade backwards, in 1975 Chou En-lai announced the "Four Modernizations" which included: Agriculture; Manufacturing; Science & Technology; & Military (Four Wings) which have propelled China into an economic Superpower.

Deut. 18:22 says that if whatever prophecies physically come to pass, that they're of GOD, -- and so we must combine what we see with what we read.

Bobby Jo

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Good day Bobby Jo,

Some nations/kingdoms on your list, still, don’t sit compatibly with what I know but I will study it further, sometimes, it helps in a way or another.

I have to study also the “why” of the mouth, body, and feet of the beast Biblically.

What I already know about China is the Great Leap Forward, the 2nd 5-year plan (1958 – 1962). Regarding the other things you mentioned about China, I’ll do a research including the Four Heads and Four Wings you attached to China.

MrBebe said:

... I have to study also the “why” of the mouth, body, and feet of the beast Biblically. ...

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... "Biblically"?!? If there's no "History" to your "Bible", then you have no Bible. That's why GOD provided Deut 22:18.


Bobby Jo

MrBebe said:

Good day brother,

v11 is a continuation of v10 – that is true, but, v10 is talking about the kings while v11 is talking about the beast and the “eight thing” is told from the future stage of the beast and not from the clause of the future king.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-

1Co 13:8-9 Murdock
(8) Love will never cease. But prophesyings will end; and tongues will be silent; and knowledge will vanish. (9) For we know but partially; and we prophesy but partially.

——- ——- === O === ——- ——-​

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Hi MrBebe, I am not sure of what you are saying because of the language in your post. But the 7th king, the one yet to come, will become the beast, as the 7th king will be killed and a few days later comes back to life - as the beast.

David H. said:

There is a large segment of the church that silences the teaching on the fallen angels and the principalities of this world, which is what Rev. 17 is speaking about, and these characters have a role to play in end times before their judgment.... And those very principalities like to work in secret, unbeknownst to most Christians. Until you differentiate the beast of rev. 13 from the one of Rev. 17 you will not see these things, and your so called lenses are nothing more than blinders.

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Good day David H.,

I agree with the first part of your reply but not with the last part.

Even if the themes/lenses are nothing more than blinders as you have remarked, it doesn’t make the 1st beast of Rev 13 and the beast of Rev 17 two distinct beasts. But of course the themes/lenses are not just blinders. It was God who wrote the Book of Revelation. He divided it into sections, each with their own theme(s) and it is through these themes/lenses God intends the book to be seen or understood, they serve His purpose. Yes, maybe, one of their purpose is to hide things from certain people or even evil entities but to God’s true servants, they serve the opposite – to REVEAL deep things and that’s the reason the book is called “REVELATION” (English) which He gave to the Lord Jesus Christ. But God doesn’t force anyone to look at Revelation through these themes/lenses.

Bobby Jo said:

... "Biblically"?!? If there's no "History" to your "Bible", then you have no Bible. That's why GOD provided Deut 22:18.


Bobby Jo

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Good day Bobby Jo,

That’s right, Biblically! To study the Biblical symbolism of a lion’s mouth, feet of a bear, and body of a leopard, then, compare them to history. Are you sure Deut 22:18 is what you're referring to?

Douggg said:

Hi MrBebe, I am not sure of what you are saying because of the language in your post. But the 7th king, the one yet to come, will become the beast, as the 7th king will be killed and a few days later comes back to life - as the beast.

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Good day Douggg,

I’m sorry if it was not made clear before mentioning the beasts/heads of Dan 7 that they are what I believe to be the heads of the beast (Rev 17:9) as “mountains.” I hope that the other parts of that post are understandable enough.

As to your last sentence, those are new to me.

MrBebe said:

Good day Bobby Jo,
That’s right, Biblically! To study the Biblical symbolism of a lion’s mouth, feet of a bear, and body of a leopard, then, compare them to history. Are you sure Deut 22:18 is what you're referring to?

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Hey MB,

... Yep, -- so long as it's the SAME Lion(Eagle)/Bear/Leopard-(actually a TIGER) as found in Dan. 7, AND IN WORLD HISTORY.

But if you can't find these entities in History, then just make stuff up. Pretend there's an alternate "interpretation" where there's some semblance of connectivity either in an obscure statue, or some obscure idol, or some obscure text, and declare "EUREKA", and pronounce your DISCOVERY.


Conversely, if Dan. 2:45 DOES depict a Five World Empire Scenario (typical of: 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE), along with the depiction that the Clay consists of a "DIVIDED KINGDOM" typical of THREE SUPERPOWERS and a One-World-Government; and Dan. 7 DOES depict that delineation as the U.K./U.S., Russia, China, and the United Nations having a TEN NATION/TOES/HORNS/DIADEMS, -- then certainly Deut. 22:18 could apply.


But to accurately do the above, you'd have to use Scripture along with History, -- in accordance with Deut. 22:18, exactly as previously asserted!
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

Hey MB,

... Yep, -- so long as it's the SAME Lion(Eagle)/Bear/Leopard-(actually a TIGER) as found in Dan. 7, AND IN WORLD HISTORY.

But if you can't find these entities in History, then just make stuff up. Pretend there's an alternate "interpretation" where there's some semblance of connectivity either in an obscure statue, or some obscure idol, or some obscure text, and declare "EUREKA", and pronounce your DISCOVERY.


Conversely, if Dan. 2:45 DOES depict a Five World Empire Scenario (typical of: 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE), along with the depiction that the Clay consists of a "DIVIDED KINGDOM" typical of THREE SUPERPOWERS and a One-World-Government; and Dan. 7 DOES depict that delineation as the U.K./U.S., Russia, China, and the United Nations having a TEN NATION/TOES/HORNS/DIADEMS, -- then certainly Deut. 22:18 could apply.


But to accurately do the above, you'd have to use Scripture along with History, -- in accordance with Deut. 22:18, exactly as previously asserted!
Bobby Jo

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@MrBebe, this is all dependant upon to the ability of the person to correctly interpret both the scriptures and the Historical record accurately enough to be conclusive in their theories. Sadly, those who claim they can do so are stuck in the same repeating loop of sound in their minds and really have no understanding. The most common mistake is to link the Statue prophecy of Dan. 2 with the Beast prophecies of Dan. 7 as one and the same entities.

The Dan. 2 Statue prophecy is only focused on what is to occur within the confines of the Land of the Chaldeans which is also associated with the land of Babylon. As such the Roman Empire cannot be associated with this prophecy.

On the other hand the beasts of Dan. 7 have an influence over all of the people of the earth should the people of the earth chose to inhabit the respective beasts' dominions and manifest the dominate characteristics of the respective beast that they have chosen to inhabit. This understanding of the Beasts and their abilities to influence people groups, kingdoms and empires over time means that during different time periods in the history of mankind, we can discern the influence of the respective beasts occurring at different time periods in the history of mankind.

Some people like to only have one period of time where the beasts of Dan. 7 had one particular period of manifesting themselves with a particular people group, kingdom or empire such that they can point to a period of time and state emphatically that that itme period was when one of the four beasts was active in the history of mankind.

I on the other hand, prefer to hold to the theory that the beasts of Dan. 7 influenced multiply people groups, kingdoms and empires over time such that the respective manifestations of the beasts ebbed and flowed over time as the influence of the respective beast dominion ebbed and waned over time within the respective people groups, kingdoms and empires, such that we can see their influences at different times inthe history of mankind.

Depending on how one interprets the scriptures, will influence how we see the impact of the respective beasts in the history of mankind.

For example the third beast of Dan. 7 has had many occurrences of people groups, kingdoms and empires inhabiting the dominions of the beasts four heads over time. The influence of the third beast can still be observed today with the four heads jostling for dominance within the world today.

How we all arrive at our conclusions is very dependent on who we allow to influence our interpretative abilities.

Shalom.