Marymog said:
Hi FHII,
I have some thoughts on this. I actually got into a discussion with my son about this several years ago and I sent him this:
What is a fair salary for a pastor of a church? Some would argue it largely depends on the size of the church. Is it a mega-church with thousands of members or small town chapel with only a few hundred? Some pastors have college degrees and put in long hours tending to their members. Others have no degree but have become the pastor due to their great passion and speaking (preaching) ability. They also put in as many hours as the pastor with a degree. So which do you pay more? The pastor with the degree who gives good philisophical sermons and faithfully tends to his members or the pastor with no degree who gives fiery/passionate sermons who also faithfully tends to his members? “The Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1Corinthians 9:14). This quote is often used to back up the notion that a pastor should be paid because The Lord says so! But if we read further into the same passage the writer (the apostle Paul) asked, “What then is my reward?”. He answers his own question by saying, “in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:18). For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate (2 Thessalonians 3:7-9). So the apostle Paul basically said according to the Lord the church should pay him, but he didn’t want to be paid and he worked night and day so that he may not be a burden. He was being a good example for them to imitate. So if our pastors are supposed to be apostles for our Lord, shouldn’t they follow in the footsteps of the first apostles? If a person truly feels they are called to preach the word of God and be an apostle for God, wouldn’t they do it free of charge like Paul did and be a good example to imitate?
If a congregation wants a professional full time pastor to manage the church and be on call like a doctor then yes they should be paid accordingly. The pastor is basically running a business and could be in charge of several employees/volunteers. But what is a fair payment? If the church is in New York or LA then the cost of living is obviously going to be higher than a church located in rural Arkansas or Montana. So maybe the answer is to pay the pastor what the average salary is of its members. How much more fair can you get than that?
Most preachers make an average salary for the work they do in the church. But what concerns me are the preachers who are given a salary of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Some of those preachers add to their salary by selling books. These wealthy preachers ask their congregation to give to the church so the church can continue to do great things. These same pastors are living in million dollar homes, have private jets (with their own hanger) and drive very expensive cars. Sounds like the “great things” their church is doing is supporting the lavish lifestyle they live.
When Jesus sent his apostles out he told them to “take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics”. (Mark 6:7-9) What would Jesus say to them if they came back with their belts over flowing with money, new clothes, jewelry and a nice pair of shoes? Would he say, it’s ok guys, as long as you were preaching the word of God and casting out unclean spirits like I asked you too! You can keep all that stuff. Or, should these wealthy pastors do as the apostles did and make sure “there was not a needy person among them” and distribute the wealth “to each as any had need” (Acts 4:34-35). I don’t think Jesus would be happy with the wealth that these pastors have accumulated; I think He would tell them to distribute the wealth. These wealthy pastors should remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira who tried to deceive Peter about money. Peter said to Ananias, ”why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?” (Acts 5: 1-3). Has Satan filled the hearts of these wealthy pastors? Have these wealthy pastors forgotten that the bible says “the love of money is the root of all evils” (1Timothy 6:10). Do these wealthy pastors skip over the part of the bible that says, “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money” (Mathew 6:24). Have these wealthy pastors forgotten the example the poor widow set who gave two copper coins to her church and Jesus said of her, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.” (Mark 12: 42-44) Do these wealthy pastors conveniently skip over Hebrews 13:5 which says, “ Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, “I will never fail you nor forsake you.”
So to sum it all up I believe pastors should be paid what the average salary is of their congregation, however, a pastor who is truly only interested in serving God, preaching his word and saving peoples souls would live below his means and do great things with the extra money they are given. He would live in an average house, in an average neighborhood living next to the average church goers who pays their salary via tithes. I don’t think Jesus would be unhappy with that. If those wealthy pastors wanted to be perfect in the eyes of Jesus he would tell them to “sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21). I suppose that these wealthy pastors would do the same thing that the rich young man did once Jesus told him those words. They would go away sorrowful, for they have great possessions (Matthew 19:22). These wealthy pastors are probably good people who sin less than I, however, their hypocrisy is on public display when they preach from the bible about helping the poor by giving your money but don’t live by the bible like they ask you and I to do. We were warned ”do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” Do they not feel guilty for getting rich abusing the gospel of Jesus and off the backs of the hard working men and women who support the church financially?
The one thing Jesus said to his disciples that these wealthy pastors should remember is, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:23) and …”none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).
“How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23)
Marymog,
Wow! Forgot all about this thread and sorry i haven't responded quicker. I'm afraid I cannot answer as well as I want on my cell phone as I want. That is, with detailed scripture. I will do my best.
In the OT it was clearly defined what the Levites got: 10% and there were some bonuses here and there. In the NT, they were still technically under the law during Jesus' ministry. Jesus even said tithing ought to be done. But shortly after the pentacost and especially during Paul's ministry a new standard was set. I will give that later.
You brought up church size, college degrees, long hours, great speaking abilities, "in the trench" work (my term for getting involved with persomal lives and problems of congegants). All important, but I somewhat disregard that. Not totally.
Romans 10 says preachers are semt by God. Doesn't always mean they have those attributes or even are good at what they do. Paul was highly educated and history says Peter was an illiterate fisherman. Moses was highly educated but was of slow speech. Doesn't matter to God.
You brought up 1 cor. Yes Paul didn't demand money from them even though he acknowledged the right to.
We should understand something about the Corinthians. They were babes in Christ and had a history of financial saavyness. paul MIGJT have perceived them as being tight-fisted with their money. Nonetheless. Paul did later in that letter ask for a contribution for the Church at Jerusalem. And in his se ond letter he asked for funding of his missionary desires (to Rome and Spain, if I remember correctly).
Also remember the nature of 1 Cor. It was a rebuking letter. A harsh one! The fact that he said he didn't ask what was his right was kind of part of the rebuke in that he was putting them to shame ( while at the same time being funded bythe Philippians... I believe... Again, memory might not be correct).
Paul laid down the rebuke and the Corinthians responded rightly. In 2 Cor, like I said, he does ask for funding for his evangelistic missions. In other words, cash to live on and do his business. Paul was a true pastor! His life was God's work! But he needed hotel fair, dining expenses, "cab money" and maybe even entertainment money...
Let me acknowledge you seem to be concerned with pastors with private jets and accomodatons at 5 star hotels... Duely noted. I haven't forgotten that point.
I want to address the letters to the Thesselonians. Paul did say he labored amongst them so they wouldn't be a burden. He said that in both letters. But in 1 thes 2 he noted what he did: he preached the gospel.
See, that wad Paul's profession. Not a lawyer, not a judge, not a tentmaker... Though he did all those things. He was an apostle firat and foremost in the history of his life and most of the time he lived off the offering. And by "lived" I mean he spent his life going throughout the known world preaching. I suspect he had a few moments of downtime (got a shocking verse to show that), but overall his purse was also the Church coffer.
Next I want to assure and remind you that in every one of his epistles except one or two he talked about giving to the ministry.
I have to slightly digress and discuss what Jesus said. When he sent his disciples out and said leave your wallet at home, he was basically saing that those they preached to should provide their lodging, thei food, and other needs.
I don't see anywhere in this Jesus being upset if they came back wirh money. Especially when i see Jesus asking Judas if they had any money to buy foid for 5000 followers. Yea... Jesus was setting up a miracle... But the fact that he asked shows that he expected the money to be there!
I have one more point to makebefore my conclusion: Jesus said we could lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven (mat 6). Paul told the Philippians that by their giving they gad fruit abounding to thei account.
Thus... Giving may financially benefit the pastor in the flesh.... Praise God. But it really edifies us and benefits us spiritually.
I know thats hard to swallow... But our money is our time spent. When we are earning money at work we have the opportunity togiGodthat to God.
So ourgiving is much more a blessing to us than it is to the preacher. Yet Gal 5 says we give for the teaching and giving to the teacher allows him tofocus on teaching, which blesses us.
Now about those megachurch preachers.... God is going to get them if they are at fault. I reckon he can do abetter job at dealing with them than I can. Furthermore, you and I can only suspect all the wrongdoing they are doing.
But God knows! Vengence is his!
Now, about that verse that dictates a REAL pastor's salary:
2 Corinthians 9:[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give ; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
That's how much a Christian should give and that's how much a pastor should earn.