Help Wanted - Luke 15:7

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

DNB said:
In each parable, the analogy is about bringing the lost back to where their counterparts already were.

Hmmm . . . but the chapter starts off with Jesus eating with sinners, which made the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees angry. Neither the sinners nor the teachers of the Law / Pharisees were saved. Not unless we're going to say that those who were circumcised physically, their Father is Abraham.

Romans 4:12 NLT - "And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised."

quietthinker · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
This passage is a tough one, for me, to understand.

Luke 15:7 KJV - "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

It seems to me that all need repentance. It seems to me that we were all, at one time, sinners.

I don't read commentaries, however, I prefer to talk to others and get their ideas. So . . . how do we make rational sense of this?

I see the 99 as being other created orders observing God's solution to the sin problem on Earth. We on Earth like no other are embroiled in sin and death......we are the ones salvation has come to through repentance and faith in Jesus.

Brakelite · Dec 13, 2020

Nancy said:
Okay then,
What is meant by those "who do not need to repent"? Are they:

-Not supposed to be real people, just illustrations in the text. So they can have the status "do not need to repent"?
-People who think they don't have the need to repent?
-People who genuinely do not need to repent?

To me, it seems that ALL are to repent to become His child. Look at the Pharisees who thought that they themselves did not need to repent...seems Christ was not so happy with them...so, you could very well be correct yet, I have to stick with what is revealed to myself. Not saying that my interpretation is correct or incorrect.
His blessings,
nancy

Hi Nancy. The 99 are sheep... They are safe. The one wandered away and was lost. Despite going his own way and abandoning his Shepherd, the Shepherd didn't abandon him, but went searching until he was found. Being found however incorporated repentance from going astray.

Marymog · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
This passage is a tough one, for me, to understand.

Luke 15:7 KJV - "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

It seems to me that all need repentance. It seems to me that we were all, at one time, sinners.

I don't read commentaries, however, I prefer to talk to others and get their ideas. So . . . how do we make rational sense of this?

Hi,

My idea is that souls in heaven are aware of what occurs to us souls here on earth.

My two cents worth....Mary

Nancy · Dec 13, 2020

Backlit said:
Hi Nancy. The 99 are sheep... They are safe. The one wandered away and was lost. Despite going his own way and abandoning his Shepherd, the Shepherd didn't abandon him, but went searching until he was found. Being found however incorporated repentance from going astray.

After another read, I do see that it was the one sheep that "wandered". Not sure where I got off track on this but I did. Sorry folks. I suppose it is the "Do not need to repent" that had me re thinking.
Thanks Braklit...E

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

Backlit said:
Hi Nancy. The 99 are sheep... They are safe. The one wandered away and was lost. Despite going his own way and abandoning his Shepherd, the Shepherd didn't abandon him, but went searching until he was found. Being found however incorporated repentance from going astray.

Question for you: Do you think that Peter, Barnabas, and the many others that THEY led astray . . . did they need to repent of their sins?

Galatians 2:11-15 NLT - "But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter's hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, "Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions? 15 "You and I are Jews by birth, not 'sinners' like the Gentiles."

And to make another point out of the above Scripture, did you notice that the "sinners" here, are the Gentiles? Did you note that Paul did not refer to the Jews as "sinners," likely because they are of the Chosen race? Could it be that Jesus is referring to the Gentiles who have yet to repent and Turn from their Sinful Ways?

Semantics. We're dealing with semantics. Here is an example from the Doctrine of Circumcision. The two below passages are completely opposite of each other. Which verse shall we choose to believe is the Truth?

Jeremiah 4:4 KJV - "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings."

Deuteronomy 30:6 NKJV - "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

The above verses, if taken literally, cannot both be True. So . . . as you can see, we have a conundrum not only with Circumcision, but with Luke 15:7. If a person has already been saved, why are they lost? And if they have already been saved, but have merely wandered off, why would they need to repent? Repentance is granted; not something that we keep on exercising over and over again, hence we send Christ to the Cross over and over again. Hebrews makes it clear that if we reject Christ, perhaps to the point of needing to once again repent, it will be impossible.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV - "For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame."

Would anyone else care to comment on the above? Seems like a pretty solid case having just been presented.

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

Nancy said:
After another read, I do see that it was the one sheep that "wandered". Not sure where I got off track on this but I did. Sorry folks. I suppose it is the "Do not need to repent" that had me re-thinking.
Thanks Braklit...E

Nancy . . . you seem like a solid Christian. Do you find yourself wandering off and needing to repent? I doubt it.

Repentance is granted. Does God grant repentance, just so that we can turn right around and do the things we once did . . . over and over again? And those that were healed of their physical ailments (living parables to the lifting of the Sin Nature within that person's Heart) . . . do we find that Jesus needed to keep healing them over and over for leprosy, blindness, lameness, etc? Didn't Jesus come to earth to give Spiritual Sight to the blind so that they could see, and to also show those who claim that they can see, that they cannot? This is what all of John chapter 9 deals with . . . the living allegory of what it means to have our Hearts Circumcised by Christ. Here's the tail end of John 9 (this section of Scripture below is entitled "Spiritual Blindness."

John 9:35-41 NLT - "When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 The man answered, "Who is he, sir? I want to believe in him." 37 "You have seen him," Jesus said, "and he is speaking to you!" 38 "Yes, Lord, I believe!" the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 39 Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." 40 Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" 41 "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

And what is Jesus really doing, above? Is He healing bodies or Hearts? Yes, Jesus physically healed them, but that's not why Christ came to earth. Jesus came to lift the Sinful Curse from our Hearts so that we would obey the Lord and Live forever with Him. Do we flop back and forth? Does Jesus lift the Curse, then reapply it? No, the Curse is lifted so that we WILL obey.

[See this Edit @Nancy - Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV - "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

The Promise of God is stated above, that He will Circumcise our Hearts SO THAT we will finally obey. If the Sinful Nature has been cut out and removed as described clearly in Colossians 2:9-15, why would we Fall astray, thus needing full repentance all over again? This defies the Heart of Scripture.

- End of Edit]

If we WILL obey, why would a person ever need to be granted the Holy Gift of Repentance . . . again? As Hebrews above states . . . this is impossible. Read Colossians 2:9-15 again . . . and ask yourself if Jesus must go through this process over and over again for His "sheep?"

BTW: Thanks, everyone! This is not an easy verse to figure out, and more, we may not ever agree until the Spirit begins to teach us all His Truth and His Truth alone.

Nancy · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
Nancy . . . you seem like a solid Christian. Do you find yourself wandering off and needing to repent? I doubt it.

Repentance is granted. Does God grant repentance, just so that we can turn right around and do the things we once did . . . over and over again? And those that were healed of their physical ailments (living parables to the lifting of the Sin Nature with that person's Heart) . . . do we find that Jesus needed to keep healing them over and over for leprosy, blindness, lameness, etc? Didn't Jesus come to earth to give Spiritual Sight to the blind so that they could see, and to also show those who claim that they can see, that they cannot? This is what all of John chapter 9 deals with . . . the living allegory of what it means to have our Hearts Circumcised by Christ. Here's the tail end of John 9 (this section of Scripture below is entitled "Spiritual Blindness"

John 9:35-41 NLT - 35 When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 The man answered, "Who is he, sir? I want to believe in him." 37 "You have seen him," Jesus said, "and he is speaking to you!" 38 "Yes, Lord, I believe!" the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 39 Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." 40 Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" 41 "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.

And what is Jesus really doing, above? Is He healing bodies or Hearts? Yes, Jesus physically healed them, but that's not why Christ came to earth. Jesus came to lift the Sinful Curse from our Hearts so that we would obey the Lord and Live forever with Him. Do we flop back and forth? Does Jesus lift the Curse, then reapply it? No, the Curse is lifted so that we WILL obey. If we WILL obey, why would a person ever need to be granted the Holy Gift of Repentance . . . again? As Hebrews above states . . . this is impossible. Read Colossians 2:9-15 again . . . and ask yourself if Jesus must go through this process over and over again for His "sheep?"

BTW: Thanks, everyone! This is not an easy verse to figure out, and more, we may not ever agree until the Spirit begins to teach us all His Truth and His Truth alone.

Good morning 2ndTim,
I do understand that we are to move on from the elementary teachings like, repentance, baptisms and such. He died one time and it worked...He will never do it again as, it was needed only once yet, still find myself repenting of frustration. And, I wish I were more of a solid Christian...I fall short in areas like study...do not have any kind of "study habits"...not even when in High School. So, I suppose it's self condemnation when failing to do these things as I very much desire to understand the deeper things of God. So, I just stop even trying and, read the Word best I can and also, learning from commentaries but how do we know which ones are sound in doctrine? Oh man, sure wish there were folks in church that would disciple folks like me in the deeper studies...and even HOW to do your own studies. Also, yes...Jesus did come to give sight to the blind and heal physically but, mostly for the spiritually blind who think they have "sight" but do not. They are blind to their own blindness! Double blinded and double minded!
The "one" wandered, the 99 did not because they were already saved. This I realized after reading the whole of the chapter. There was more rejoicing in the presence of the angels in Heaven with the one lost sheep being saved. I take it that the rejoicing of a saved sinner goes on into eternity maybe? Hence, the 99 already got their "rejoicing" lol...yeah, most likely way off track on that one

God Bless you brother
nancy

Nancy · Dec 13, 2020

DNB said:
I would think that the proper parallel passage would be the 100 sheep and the one that goes astray. The 99 sheep were safe and with their proper owner. But, the owner now, wanted to bring the lost sheep to the same place as the others, not to a more glorious abode. In all these cases of the lost coin, the lost sheep, the prodigal son, or eating and drinking with sinners, Jesus is juxtaposing the already saved who are truly not in need of a physician, as to those who are truly lost and on their way to perdition. This is not the same principle as the Pharisee and the tax collector in the synagogue - one feeling that he did not need to repent, whereas the other one felt that he could do nothing but repent (the former was self-righteous and deluded).

In each parable, the analogy is about bringing the lost back to where their counterparts already were. This is the implication, they were all already healed, found, or saved. Thus, in all these contexts, Jesus is elucidating the fact the evangelization is of great importance, even at great risk, and that one should not rest on their laurels, complacently dealing with only the already saved (pastorally).

Hi DNB,
Yes, after some reading and praying last night, I am back to seeing it this way again. How easy it can be sometimes to get off track. It does make sense that the 99 were the ones that did NOT wander like the one. So therefore of course, they have already repented and stayed with The Shepherd.

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

Nancy said:
Good morning 2ndTim,
I do understand that we are to move on from the elementary teachings like, repentance, baptisms and such. He died one time and it worked...He will never do it again as, it was needed only once yet, still find myself repenting of frustration. And, I wish I were more of a solid Christian...I fall short in areas like study...do not have any kind of "study habits"...not even when in High School. So, I suppose it's self condemnation when failing to do these things as I very much desire to understand the deeper things of God. So, I just stop even trying and, read the Word best I can and also, learning from commentaries but how do we know which ones are sound in doctrine? Oh man, sure wish there were folks in church that would disciple folks like me in the deeper studies...and even HOW to do your own studies. Also, yes...Jesus did come to give sight to the blind and heal physically but, mostly for the spiritually blind who think they have "sight" but do not. They are blind to their own blindness! Double blinded and double minded!
The "one" wandered, the 99 did not because they were already saved. This I realized after reading the whole of the chapter. There was more rejoicing in the presence of the angels in Heaven with the one lost sheep being saved. I take it that the rejoicing of a saved sinner goes on into eternity maybe? Hence, the 99 already got their "rejoicing" lol...yeah, most likely way off track on that one
God Bless you brother
nancy

I see all sides of this conundrum. But . . . if a sheep has wandered from the Pen, and was not saved, thus needing Holy Repentance, why was that sheep in the Pen to begin with? And . . . the True sheep are able to pass from pasture to pasture [freely], meaning that the Devil cannot actually harm them. But, if a sheep needs repentance, it is because their Father remains the Devil.

John 10:6-16 NLT - "Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn't understand what he meant, 7 so he explained it to them: "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them. 9 Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures. 10 The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. 12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don't belong to him and he isn't their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. 13 The hired hand runs away because he's working only for the money and doesn't really care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd."

If Christ's True sheep listen to His voice, why would they fall astray, thus needing to repent all over again?

Consider this:

If the Sinful Nature has been removed: Colossians 2:9-15 . . .
If the Curse has been removed: Galatians 3:13 . . .
If True Sheep have been granted the Divine Nature, thus escaping the corruption of the world: . . . 2 Peter 1:4
If our Old Life of sin is gone, and New Life begins: . . . 2 Corinthians 5:13-21
If True Sheep will reflect the Lord's Glory with increasing measure: . . . 2 Corinthians 3:14-18
If True Sheep are reborn, born of God and thus possess no pattern of sin: . . . 1 John 3:8-10

Why would a person, who has already repented and given their Heart to Christ for Purification . . . fall astray, thus needing to repent over and over again? Simply put, this concept doesn't fit the narrative of the Bible as a whole. The whole point of the Bible is to deal with the six points above. What Adam and Eve did in the Garden is why the six points above exist at all. The Work of Christ is to Purify, thus, if a person has become Purified by Christ, thus no longer controlled by Satan, but now by the Holy Spirit, how does one Truly fall astray? They don't, and neither did Peter, Barnabas or the others that were allegedly fallen astray.

Fun stuff! This is an incredible Bible that we have!

Heart2Soul · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
This passage is a tough one, for me, to understand.

Luke 15:7 KJV - "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

It seems to me that all need repentance. It seems to me that we were all, at one time, sinners.

I don't read commentaries, however, I prefer to talk to others and get their ideas. So . . . how do we make rational sense of this?

I really like this saying because it helps us understand ourselves in our weakness to sin.
"We are not sinners because we sin...
We sin because we are sinners."
In other words our sins isn't what makes us sinners for we are all born sinners without ever committing a sin. But being born a sinner we are compelled by the lust of our flesh or another way of saying it is that the flesh is tempted to satisfy its own desires without having the conscience to know it is sin. We are taught what is sin by our parents and by the Word of God.

And we learn from scripture that by ONE man ALL were made sinners...
And by the obedience of ONE man (Jesus) all are made righteous...it is not of ourselves in either case.
Adam caused the fall of man and brought the curse of sin and death upon the world.
Jesus became the redemption of man and restored us to the righteousness of God through Him.

Berserk · Dec 13, 2020

Most Christians have a distorted understanding of Jesus' parables (1) because they don't know the cultural background and (3) because they don't recognize the difference between parable and allegory, and (3) because they don't recognize Jesus' characteristic use of shock tactics to grab audience attention and make them think; that is, the central character either acts like a fool or breaks the law.

In his magisterial academic commentary on Jesus' parables, Burton Mack represents the scholarly consensus about the Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:3-7). Rather than offer a definitive interpretation, I will lay out the important factors for scholarly interpretation. Shepherds are reviled in the Judaism of Jesus' day: "they are not to be trusted because they cross boundaries intentionally so their sheep can graxe on another's land (i.e. they steal from others)."

Mack continues: "A real shepherd would not leave the sheep alone." The text implies neither that the 99 are left in a secure sheepfold nor that they are left in the care of another. "The narrative structure makes evident the risk the shepherd runs. When one of the sheep wanders away, should he go after it and leave the 99 vin the mountains, where they too may scatter and be attacked by a wolf?...Will the 99 still be intact when he returns? Why this concern for just one?...The shepherd is not God but perhaps a fool...This is the story of a possible fool who may have gambled all and lost."

Brakelite · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
Question for you: Do you think that Peter, Barnabas, and the many others that THEY led astray . . . did they need to repent of their sins?

Galatians 2:11-15 NLT - "But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter's hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, "Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions? 15 "You and I are Jews by birth, not 'sinners' like the Gentiles."

And to make another point out of the above Scripture, did you notice that the "sinners" here, are the Gentiles? Did you note that Paul did not refer to the Jews as "sinners," likely because they are of the Chosen race? Could it be that Jesus is referring to the Gentiles who have yet to repent and Turn from their Sinful Ways?

Semantics. We're dealing with semantics. Here is an example from the Doctrine of Circumcision. The two below passages are completely opposite of each other. Which verse shall we choose to believe is the Truth?

Jeremiah 4:4 KJV - "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings."

Deuteronomy 30:6 NKJV - "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

The above verses, if taken literally, cannot both be True. So . . . as you can see, we have a conundrum not only with Circumcision, but with Luke 15:7. If a person has already been saved, why are they lost? And if they have already been saved, but have merely wandered off, why would they need to repent? Repentance is granted; not something that we keep on exercising over and over again, hence we send Christ to the Cross over and over again. Hebrews makes it clear that if we reject Christ, perhaps to the point of needing to once again repent, it will be impossible.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV - "For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame."

Would anyone else care to comment on the above? Seems like a pretty solid case having just been presented.

Making a mistake...a misjudgment... Allowing pride to get the better of you... Committing sin... These are certainly things we need to repent of. But the lost sheep didn't just make a mistake. He walked away. He was lost. In fact so lost he didn't know where he was... The Shepherd had to go looking for Him. He made a decision to abandon his Master. So once saved always saved is not a thing. One can still choose to leave home. The Homeowner however has promised never to give up on you. And He won't. But don't harden your heart against the promptings of the holy Spirit. The more one resists, the more difficult it is to humble oneself to accept the mercy needed. While the Shepherd will keep looking, keep pleading, keep imploring you to return to the fold with the 99, He won't drag you kicking and screaming against your will.

Brakelite · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
Seems like a pretty solid case having just been presented.

A solid case for what? I don't get the point you're making.

DNB · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
Hmmm . . . but the chapter starts off with Jesus eating with sinners, which made the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees angry. Neither the sinners nor the teachers of the Law / Pharisees were saved. Not unless we're going to say that those who were circumcised physically, their Father is Abraham.

Romans 4:12 NLT - "And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised."

The parables were demonstrating that point, in order to justify his 'carousing' with sinners. Jesus was addressing the immediate context - the position of his accusers against those that he was trying to save. He was just explaining why he chose to engage with sinners, nothing more than that.

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

Backlit said:
Making a mistake...a misjudgment... Slowing pride to get the better of you... Committing sin... These are certainly things we need to repent of. But the most sheep didn't just make s mistake. He walked away. He was lost. In fact so lost he didn't know where he was... The Shepherd had to go looking for Him. He made a decision to abandon his Master. So once saved always saved is not a thing. One can still choose to leave home. The Homeowner however has promised never to give up on you. And He won't. But don't harden your heart against the promptings of the holy Spirit. The more one resists, the more difficult it is to humble oneself to accept the mercy needed. While the Shepherd will keep looking, keep pleading, keep imploring you to return to the fold with the 99, He won't drag you kicking and screaming against your will.

Hmmm . . . if what you're saying is True, then Scripture is false. The passage below, I can duplicate it over and over again throughout Old and New Testaments . . . here is just one.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]."

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

Backlit said:
A solid case for what? I don't get the point you're making.

Okie doke.

OzSpen · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
This passage is a tough one, for me, to understand.

Luke 15:7 KJV - "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

It seems to me that all need repentance. It seems to me that we were all, at one time, sinners.

I don't read commentaries, however, I prefer to talk to others and get their ideas. So . . . how do we make rational sense of this?

2nd Tim,

Righteous/just people don't need to repent. The Scribes and Pharisees saw themselves as 'just people' by their external behaviour because they lived regular lives. However, if we read Josephus and the Talmud we learn these Jewish leaders were guilty of a pile of barefaced sins. We see this irony in the parable of the Pharisee and publican - the despised tax collector (Luke 18:9).

They were egotistic, considered themselves righteous, and despised others who were not like they were. They all needed repentance but the Pharisees and Scribes didn't see their need of it. They knew this of God, 'Surely thou, O Lord, the God of the just, hast not appointed repentance for the just, for Abraham and Isaac and Jacob who have not sinned against thee; but thou hast appointed repentance for me a sinner:' (Prayer of Manasseh 1:8, apocryphal book).

It would do you good to read other Bible teachers in commentaries. After all, it was the Lord God who gave teachers for this purpose:

10 He, the very one who descended, is also the one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things. 11 And he himself gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ (Eph 4:10-12 NET).

Who taught you to ignore biblical teachers by refusing to use commentaries? By refusing to use commentaries you refuse to seek guidance from God's gifted people who are given to the church 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry' and so 'build up the body of Christ'.

Oz

2nd Timothy Group · Dec 13, 2020

OzSpen said:
Who taught you to ignore biblical teachers by refusing to use commentaries? By refusing to use commentaries you refuse to seek guidance from God's gifted people who are given to the church 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry' and so 'build up the body of Christ'.

Most interesting paraphrasing of what I wrote.

[Edit - THAT's why I, for the most part, do not turn to commentators. They confuse what is obvious. Now, while you have thoroughly mistranslated me, at least I can communicate and clarify with you, while I do not have that chance with what some dude wrote in a book.

Nancy · Dec 13, 2020

2nd Timothy Group said:
I see all sides of this conundrum. But . . . if a sheep has wandered from the Pen, and was not saved, thus needing Holy Repentance, why was that sheep in the Pen to begin with? The only sheep within the Pen of God is one that is a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing. And . . . the True sheep are able to pass from pasture to pasture [freely], meaning that the Devil cannot actually harm them. But, if a sheep needs repentance, it is because their Father remains the Devil.

John 10:6-16 NLT - "Those who heard Jesus use this illustration didn't understand what he meant, 7 so he explained it to them: "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them. 9 Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures. 10 The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. 12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don't belong to him and he isn't their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. 13 The hired hand runs away because he's working only for the money and doesn't really care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd."

If Christ's True sheep listen to His voice, why would they fall astray, thus needing to repent all over again?

Consider this:

If the Sinful Nature has been removed: Colossians 2:9-15 . . .
If the Curse has been removed: Galatians 3:13 . . .
If True Sheep have been granted the Divine Nature, thus escaping the corruption of the world: . . . 2 Peter 1:4
If our Old Life of sin is gone, and New Life begins: . . . 2 Corinthians 5:13-21
If True Sheep will reflect the Lord's Glory with increasing measure: . . . 2 Corinthians 3:14-18
If True Sheep are reborn, born of God and thus possess no pattern of sin: . . . 1 John 3:8-10

Fun stuff! This is an incredible Bible that we have!

Hi 2Tim,

"If the Sinful Nature has been removed: Colossians 2:9-15 . . .
If the Curse has been removed: Galatians 3:13 . . .
If True Sheep have been granted the Divine Nature, thus escaping the corruption of the world: . . . 2 Peter 1:4
If our Old Life of sin is gone, and New Life begins: . . . 2 Corinthians 5:13-21
If True Sheep will reflect the Lord's Glory with increasing measure: . . . 2 Corinthians 3:14-18
If True Sheep are reborn, born of God and thus possess no pattern of sin: . . . 1 John 3:8-

10Why would a person, who has already repented and given their Heart to Christ for Purification . . . fall astray, thus needing to repent over and over again?" <--- Maybe because sheep are known to stray? And The Good Shepherd will never allow the evil one to snatch His sheep from His hand?

"... born of God and thus possess no pattern of sin <----"Pattern to me is the key word here. "Living" in sin, not falling in sin at times, as we still fight the flesh, and Satan. We can and do falter at times but where the difference in true sheep and false ones is, do you hate when you do or omit doing something God want's or does not want you to do? If we don't hate sin as He does then yes, the flesh and Satan will take over as we do not believe God then. We lose battles also at times but, He will never allow His true sheep to stray for very long or far. He brings us back into the fold. The key is IMHO, obedience, hearing and heeding and turning back in the right direction. Now, if you are speaking of those who make a lifestyle of sinning, and thinking God is okay with that then that would open up a whole nother issue, lol.

Simply put, this concept doesn't fit the narrative of the Bible as a whole. The whole point of the Bible is to deal with the six points above. What Adam and Eve did in the Garden is why the six points above exist at all. The Work of Christ is to Purify, thus, if a person has become Purified by Christ, thus no longer controlled by Satan, but now by the Holy Spirit, how does one Truly fall astray? They don't, and neither did Peter, Barnabas or the others that were allegedly fallen astray. <----- To myself, I see the narrative of the bible as a whole, beginning and ending with Christ. And, if what you say is true then, I myself am not a saved person because I DID walk away from the church for a good 20 years, BUT...I was not saved then, just wanted to be. I was holding onto the things of this world, that NEVER fully satisfy. When I realized about 8 or 9 years ago that HE never left my side, it was I who wandered off into the wilderness again. That realization, that day changed every single thing in my life. Simply put, I was never saved back then, but I know that I am now His as, things in my life that have happened when I put my FULL faith in Him for the impossible, the impossible happens! Nothing in this world turns my head, nothing. He has done that in His way and in His time. When looking back over the many years of leaving the church, there was not one single day that I did not think about God. Weather or not I understood anything didn't matter as, I can now say that He was continuing to draw me all that time.

Christians are not "controlled" by Satan but are tempted and can "fall" into sin (hopefully less and less as we grow), There is a difference between "falling in sin" and "living" in sin. We overcome with discernment and growth in Him. But, that is probably not overnight for most. Think Prodigal son? He walked away but was welcomed back.

"Fun stuff! This is an incredible Bible that we have!" <---- Yes indeed it is, it is a treasure chest...or should I say treasure hunt!

God bless
nancy

"

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