The Sabbath Day and Jesus

justbyfaith · Dec 15, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Also yes Jesus is our eternal Father but not in the sense that Jehovah God is.

If Jesus is our Father at all, He is the only Father (Malachi 2:10).

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Yes both Jesus and Jehovah are said to be mighty Gods in scripture, but nowhere in scripture is Jesus said to be Almighty God this is only applied to Jehovah and him alone.

You are saying that there is more than one "Mighty God" then...I would suggest reading James 2:19.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Being released from the consequences of sin could only be realized by having a perfect Father, one who had not inherited sin and it's consequences. That person was the last Adam Jesus Christ.

So, Jesus is your perfect Father.

Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Are you saying then that Jehovah is not the Father?

justbyfaith · Dec 15, 2020

What do you think the word "The" means, in Isaiah 9:6 and in Psalms 50:1 (kjv), @BARNEY BRIGHT?

Can there be more than one Person who is "the" Mighty God?

BARNEY BRIGHT · Dec 15, 2020

justbyfaith said:
What do you think the word "The" means, in Isaiah 9:6 and in Psalms 50:1 (kjv), @BARNEY BRIGHT?

Can there be more than one Person who is "the" Mighty God?

As I said Jesus nowhere in scripture is said to be the Almighty God. That's the truth.

justbyfaith said:
If Jesus is our Father at all, He is the only Father (Malachi 2:10).

You are saying that there is more than one "Mighty God" then...I would suggest reading James 2:19.

So, Jesus is your perfect Father.

Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Are you saying then that Jehovah is not the Father?

Since Adam was supposed to be the human Father of all humanity even though he lost that relationship when he sinned that shows in scripture that we have more than one Father doesn't it? Or are trying to say Adam was never to be mankinds human Father? Also the fact we have phrases like, "The Only True God," "Almighty God," in scripture doesn't that show that there would be others in heaven and earth called God's yet we know that there is only one True God, and in scripture other gods would said to be mighty gods but we know there would only be one Almighty God who's name is Jehovah. So to say we humans don't have a Father other than Jehovah isn't true. I agree when you find in scripture it says not to call anyone Father, or Lord etc in scripture you must keep that in context of what those scriptures is talking about or trying to teach us. The scriptures show us that there are many said to be lords and many said to be gods but we know there is Only One True God Jehovah and one Lord Jesus Christ. Because Jesus is our Lord and King doesn't mean we don't have another who is our father who is also Jesus Father and we know Jesus God is our God so just as Jesus is our Lord and King So is Jehovah our Lord and King after all The Only True God Jehovah is Father and God to Jesus.

justbyfaith · Dec 15, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
As I said Jesus nowhere in scripture is said to be the Almighty God. That's the truth.

Actually, Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 that He has been given all power in heaven and on earth...so He is in fact Almighty God.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Or are trying to say Adam was never to be mankinds human Father?

We have only one Father...God (Malachi 2:10).

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
So to say we humans don't have a Father other than Jehovah isn't true.

So, you deny what it says in Malachi 2:10?

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
but we know there is Only One True God Jehovah and one Lord Jesus Christ.

yet Jesus said that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. So, the Father is the one Lord Jesus Christ?

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
after all The Only True God Jehovah is Father

So, you are saying that Jesus Christ is the only true God Jehovah; since He is the one Lord and this one Lord is obviously the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Ziggy · Dec 15, 2020

Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Dec 15, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Actually, Jesus said in Matthew 28:18 that He has been given all power in heaven and on earth...so He is in fact Almighty God.

We have only one Father...God (Malachi 2:10).

So, you deny what it says in Malachi 2:10?

yet Jesus said that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. So, the Father is the one Lord Jesus Christ?

So, you are saying that Jesus Christ is the only true God Jehovah; since He is the one Lord and this one Lord is obviously the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Are you not listening to what you're posting. If someone has GIVEN Jesus this authority you're talking about at Matthew 28:18 that means someone Mightier than him GAVE him this authority. That person is Jehovah God The Almighty. Also how do you explain John 20:17 with Malachi 2:10 at John 20:17Jesus says after he's been resurrected that he has a Father and God who is our Father and God.
At Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21Jesus is praying to the Father which is his father and God according to John 20:17

justbyfaith · Dec 15, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Are you not listening to what you're posting. If someone has GIVEN Jesus this authority you're talking about at Matthew 28:18 that means someone Mightier than him GAVE him this authority. That person is Jehovah God The Almighty.

Because the Father emptied Himself of some of the attributes of Deity when He descended to become the Son; and also stayed behind in eternity: therefore from the perspective of being in eternity God the Father was able to give unto Himself (in the Person of the Son) all power in heaven and on earth; which He had relinquished for the sake of becoming human.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Also how do you explain John 20:17 with Malachi 2:10 at John 20:17Jesus says after he's been resurrected that he has a Father and God who is our Father and God.

In Revelation 1:6 it says,

Rev 1:6, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Apparently God has a Father.

Who is this God who has a Father?

Is it not Jesus Christ the Son of the living God?

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
At Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21Jesus is praying to the Father which is his father and God according to John 20:17

And yes, there is also only one God (James 2:19). So, how is the Father not the one Lord of holy scripture when it is clear from these verses that the Father (God) is that one Lord? yet, the scripture also teaches that Jesus is the one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6). And that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

Can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and Ephesians 4:5? Read the verses before answering.

And yes, there is also only one God (James 2:19). So, how is the Father the one Lord of holy scripture when it is clear from these verses that the Father (God) is that one Lord? Because Jesus is the Lord. (Can you say that in light of the scriptures presented? If you can't, maybe you don't have the Spirit of truth (the Holy Ghost).)

The answer to the question of how, is that the Father descended to become a Man (He took on an added nature of human flesh) so that He might be able to die as a Man (see Revelation 2:8); since we know from other scripture (Isaiah 44:6) that Jehovah is the First and the Last.

His Spirit separated from His body (Luke 23:46) and this is the death that is being spoken of in Revelation 2:8.

Yes, God became a Man and died for you and me.

I know that this goes against everything that you believe as a Jehovah's Witness; but I believe that you must look at the testimony of the scriptures that have been presented.

The answer to the question of how, is that the Father descended to become a Man (He took on an added nature of human flesh); while staying behind in eternity in the Person of the Father so that Jesus (who is the Father) might operate as a human being and show us the way...for Jesus did in fact pray to the Father and this does not mean that He and the Father are not the same Spirit.

For, if you look at John 14:7-11 you will see that the Father was in Jesus and Jesus was in the Father; and that whoever saw Jesus was also looking at the Father. And in John 4:23-24 you will see that the Father is a Spirit. Therefore the Spirit who dwelt in Jesus Christ was in fact the Father (see also 2 Corinthians 5:19) and is the Father.

Therefore all you have yet to realize is that in what is called the hypostatic union, the human nature of Jesus is intertwined with His Divine nature so that in all of who Jesus is, He is God.

If you don't believe me, I would suggest looking up the scriptures that I have presented to you in the kjv...I trust that you accept its veracity as a Jehovah's Witness?

Ziggy · Dec 15, 2020

Question..
When 3 men show up at Abraham's tent on their way to Sodom,
Who was Abraham talking to?

thank you

justbyfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Ziggy said:
Question..
When 3 men show up at Abraham's tent on their way to Sodom,
Who was Abraham talking to?

thank you

It was a Theophany and two angels.

Ziggy · Dec 15, 2020

You making me work

Theophany, (from Greek theophaneia, “appearance of God”), manifestation of deity in sensible form. ... The mark of biblical theophanies is the temporariness and suddenness of the appearance of God, which is here not an enduring presence in a certain place or object.

So out of eternity would you consider 33 1/2 years a temporariness or suddenness of the apperance of God?
Like a blink of an eye.. so to speak?

Ziggy · Dec 15, 2020

And how many times has God blinked I wonder..

BARNEY BRIGHT · Dec 15, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Because the Father emptied Himself of some of the attributes of Deity when He descended to become the Son; and also stayed behind in eternity: therefore from the perspective of being in eternity God the Father was able to give unto Himself (in the Person of the Son) all power in heaven and on earth; which He had relinquished for the sake of becoming human.

In Revelation 1:6 it says,

Rev 1:6, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Apparently God has a Father.

Who is this God who has a Father?

Is it not Jesus Christ the Son of the living God?

And yes, there is also only one God (James 2:19). So, how is the Father not the one Lord of holy scripture when it is clear from these verses that the Father (God) is that one Lord? yet, the scripture also teaches that Jesus is the one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6). And that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

Can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and Ephesians 4:5? Read the verses before answering.

And yes, there is also only one God (James 2:19). So, how is the Father the one Lord of holy scripture when it is clear from these verses that the Father (God) is that one Lord? Because Jesus is the Lord. (Can you say that in light of the scriptures presented? If you can't, maybe you don't have the Spirit of truth (the Holy Ghost).)

The answer to the question of how, is that the Father descended to become a Man (He took on an added nature of human flesh) so that He might be able to die as a Man (see Revelation 2:8); since we know from other scripture (Isaiah 44:6) that Jehovah is the First and the Last.

His Spirit separated from His body (Luke 23:46) and this is the death that is being spoken of in Revelation 2:8.

Yes, God became a Man and died for you and me.

I know that this goes against everything that you believe as a Jehovah's Witness; but I believe that you must look at the testimony of the scriptures that have been presented.

The answer to the question of how, is that the Father descended to become a Man (He took on an added nature of human flesh); while staying behind in eternity in the Person of the Father so that Jesus (who is the Father) might operate as a human being and show us the way...for Jesus did in fact pray to the Father and this does not mean that He and the Father are not the same Spirit.

For, if you look at John 14:7-11 you will see that the Father was in Jesus and Jesus was in the Father; and that whoever saw Jesus was also looking at the Father. And in John 4:23-24 you will see that the Father is a Spirit. Therefore the Spirit who dwelt in Jesus Christ was in fact the Father (see also 2 Corinthians 5:19) and is the Father.

Therefore all you have yet to realize is that in what is called the hypostatic union, the human nature of Jesus is intertwined with His Divine nature so that in all of who Jesus is, He is God.

If you don't believe me, I would suggest looking up the scriptures that I have presented to you in the kjv...I trust that you accept its veracity as a Jehovah's Witness?

At John 14:5-11 Jesus, responding to a question by Thomas, said: “If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him,” and, in answer to a question from Philip, Jesus added: “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (John 14:5-9) but Jesus’ following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Father’s words, and did the Father’s works. (John 14:10,11) compare (John 12:28, 44-49)

All this other stuff you're saying that God became a man and died for us is you along with many others denying that it was the Only Begotten Son of God that became a human and died for us. If you wish to deny that, that's your choice, I however believe it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became human and died for mankind.

At Revelation 1:6 that says- And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This scripture isn't saying that Jesus is God. This scripture is saying that Jesus made them that this scripture is addressing to be kings and priests to his God and Father.

And yes I can say Jesus is my Lord because I understand that at Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21 Jesus is praying to his Father who is God these scriptures don't claim Jesus to be God.

Ziggy · Dec 15, 2020

Hi Barney,
I'm not arguing with ya, just working it through..

Jesus is flesh. But he is also the seed of God. Meaning when Mary ...
okay..
The seed in the flesh we call Jesus IS God.
Emmanuel.. God with us.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How I understand it is God, through his own seed, created a flesh body or "tabernacle" in which He could walk among men.
God is the Father and He is also the Son. He resides in both the heaven and the earth at the same time.
He is All and in All.
God in the body of himself as the Son laid his own life down for humanity. He covered our sins with his own life.. life is in the blood.
This he poured out for us, He also poured out His spirit on those who believed.
God is Father in heaven, Son on earth, and Holy Spirit in us.

This is why death could have no power over Jesus. Jesus is the Life of God Himself.
If death were able to conquer life...
we wouldn't be here talking.

That's how I understand it.
Many see it differently I understand.
I believe the important thing to believe is. God loves us and want us to love Him.
We have not seen the Father, but He has shown us the Son. He shares himself through the Holy Spirit.
What more can he do for his vineyard?

Much Love
Hugs

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
Isa 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

justbyfaith · Dec 15, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
All this other stuff you're saying that God became a man and died for us is you along with many others denying that it was the Only Begotten Son of God that became a human and died for us. If you wish to deny that, that's your choice, I however believe it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became human and died for mankind.

I do not deny that the only begotten Son came and died for us. But you seem to be in denial of the fact that the "son that was given" has and shall have the name of "The everlasting Father".

In light of the fact that we all have only one Father (Malachi 2:10) how is it that you still deny the fact that Jesus being the Son also means that He is also God the Father in His Spirit?

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
And yes I can say Jesus is my Lord because I understand that at Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21 Jesus is praying to his Father who is God these scriptures don't claim Jesus to be God.

The question was whether or not you can say that Jesus is the Lord (see 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)) n light of the fact that there is only one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and that this Lord of heaven and earth is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21)?

BARNEY BRIGHT · Dec 15, 2020

Justbyfaith said:
I do not deny that the only begotten Son came and died for us.[/Quote\]

Actually you did deny that. You very clearly said that Jesus is God. That it was God who became man. Therefore you're denying it was The Only Begotten Son of God who became man/human and died for us. Instead you are claiming that God became human/man and died for us which is denying that the Only Begotten Son of God became man/human and died for us.

Ziggy · Dec 15, 2020

I know this is a serious matter..
but just for levity sake..

Heart2Soul · Dec 15, 2020

Ziggy said:
I know this is a serious matter..
but just for levity sake..

I remember that song.

justbyfaith · Dec 16, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Justbyfaith said:
I do not deny that the only begotten Son came and died for us.[/Quote\]

Actually you did deny that. You very clearly said that Jesus is God. That it was God who became man. Therefore you're denying it was The Only Begotten Son of God who became man/human and died for us. Instead you are claiming that God became human/man and died for us which is denying that the Only Begotten Son of God became man/human and died for us.

Jesus became the only begotten Son at the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but He truly is the only begotten Son and he truly did come to die for us.

That He was the Father in His pre-incarnate form is of no consequence to the fact that He is the only begotten Son and that He came to die for us.

The "son that was given" shall be given the name of "The everlasting Father".

This is because the everlasting Father is who Jesus is..our one God and Father according to Malachi 2:10.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Dec 16, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Jesus became the only begotten Son at the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but He truly is the only begotten Son and he truly did come to die for us.

That He was the Father in His pre-incarnate form is of no consequence to the fact that He is the only begotten Son and that He came to die for us.

The "son that was given" shall be given the name of "The everlasting Father".

This is because the everlasting Father is who Jesus is..our one God and Father according to Malachi 2:10.

I asked you specifically what does John 1:14 mean to you. You said it means that Jesus is God. Saying something like that in regards to John 1:14, "that Jesus is God" is saying that it was God who became man/human. That's denying the Only Begotten Son of God became man/human.

ChristisGod · Dec 17, 2020

Ziggy said:
You making me work

Theophany, (from Greek theophaneia, “appearance of God”), manifestation of deity in sensible form. ... The mark of biblical theophanies is the temporariness and suddenness of the appearance of God, which is here not an enduring presence in a certain place or object.

So out of eternity would you consider 33 1/2 years a temporariness or suddenness of the apperance of God?
Like a blink of an eye.. so to speak?

A Christophany

The Sabbath Day and Jesus

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