SinSinSin

justbyfaith said:

Just like "sinless perfection" is a misnomer intended to produce a straw man (and a false witness) that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8...

When the doctrine of entire sanctification actually does not teach that sin is eradicated from the body (i.e. we become sinless) but rather that it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

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BarnyFife said:

Isn't this slightly doubletalky? What does "it no longer has any say over our behaviour" even mean?

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It means that we don't have to obey the dictates of out old man / flesh, but that we can walk in newness of the spirit.

Marymog said:

Hi Marks,

When we sin, and don't repent, we loose our salvation. For you see we have to repent to have forgiveness of our sins (Acts). Because Jesus does not wish that any should perish, but that we all should reach repentance (2 Peter). Maybe that is why threads which discuss our salvation become so focused on sin?

I agree with you that "Salvation is through faith in Christ"!!! But that is only part of the story told in Scripture. Here is, as Paul Harvey would say, The Rest of the Story:

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans). He even told us if we confesse Him before men the Son of Man also will confess on our behalf before the angels of God (Luke).

AND, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark) because Baptism saves you (1 Peter)

After we have faith in Him and have become Christians He tells us that He will render to each one according to his works (Romans). Christians also know that we must have good works because He has made it clear that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James).

My two cents worth....Mary

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However, salvation is not of works by the slightest means (Romans 4:1-8 (Romans 4:5-6), Titus 3:4-7 (Titus 3:5), Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6).

Being "justified by works" in the Bible refers to being declared righteous before men; whereas "justification by faith" in the Bible means being declared righteous before God (see Romans 4:2). I think that the Greek word for justify is even slightly different when you compare them between Romans and James.

CharismaticLady said:

I think he means we have more freedom to chose rather than being controlled as a slave to a carnal nature.

My beliefs are similar, except I do believe Jesus means for us to be sinless, and gives us His Spirit to accomplish that. Putting sinless and perfection together is wrong for those newly born again. We become sinless when we become free from sin, and choose righteousness, but we do not become perfect unless we grow to maturity in the fruit of the Spirit. Two different things.

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Personally, I don't think that we can biblically become sinless (1 John 1:8); although biblically we can become perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

marks said:

When you are speaking with me, it's a straw man. I've never given you any indication I think that way, and I don't.

It's a straw man, and if you ascribe such to me, its a false witness.

Much love!

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However, this is a public forum; and when we consider doctrine we need to consider every impact that a doctrine might have on people who believe in it.

So, even though the particular bent on your doctrine may not apply to you because you don't believe in it that way, that bent needs to be dealt with on behalf of those who have that bent in their thinking.

justbyfaith said:

It means that we don't have to obey the dictates of out old man / flesh, but that we can walk in newness of the spirit.



However, salvation is not of works by the slightest means (Romans 4:1-8 (Romans 4:5-6), Titus 3:4-7 (Titus 3:5), Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6).

Being "justified by works" in the Bible refers to being declared righteous before men; whereas "justification by faith" in the Bible means being declared righteous before God (see Romans 4:2). I think that the Greek word for justify is even slightly different when you compare them between Romans and James.



Personally, I don't think that we can biblically become sinless (1 John 1:8); although biblically we can become perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

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You're right. Without Jesus (like the person in 1 John 1:8) we cannot say we have no sin. A Christian who has repented 1 John 1:9 is the person in 1 John 1:7, and 1 John 3:9. Why can't you understand that - it is so simple. Verse 9 is in conjunction with verse 8.

marks said:

Doesn't matter to who??

Anyway, this isn't something I say, that sin doesn't matter. Certainly sin matters.

Much love!

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What you may not be understanding about my view is that grace and Jesus are inseparable, just like Jesus and the Father are inseparable. Jesus is full of grace and truth, John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Grace is the divine power of God as it is the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:2-4; Acts 4:33 (Jewish parallelism) great power/great grace. The Spirit is the difference in our New Covenant, than the Old Covenant of Law. Our covenant of the Spirit is also the covenant of grace. And the Spirit is the power of God. Thus grace is power. So if you actually have Jesus, He MUST be inside you, and that is grace.

CharismaticLady said:

You're right. Without Jesus (like the person in 1 John 1:8) we cannot say we have no sin. A Christian who has repented 1 John 1:9 is the person in 1 John 1:7, and 1 John 3:9. Why can't you understand that - it is so simple. Verse 9 is in conjunction with verse 8.

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See this post: Commentary on Romans.

Ronald Nolette said:

So which laws do you obey?

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All of them.

The only and effective way scripture tells me how to:

By Loving my friends and enemies.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And Jesus himself said:

Joh 14:23 ...If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So if you believe you cannot keep all of God’s commandments you have been listening to the wrong voices.

Ronald Nolette said:

THE law of Moses is no longer in effect.

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Says who?

Scripture says that believers establish the law:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)

marks said:

Sounds good to me!

Justification is what brings sanctification. Go and sin no more! Peter, come to Me! Get out of the boat!

It's in Romans 6:7, the one who had died has been justified away from sin.

It is our justification that if we simply walk according to what God did for us, we walk in sanctification. This is the natural state of the born again. But be it to you according to your faith.

If you believe you must fight and struggle against sin you will, since that becomes the life you choose. But if you believe that God has freed us from sin you can be free, choosing to walk in that life.

For me, the best way to keep my mind set in the liberty given me by Christ, is to always remember God loves me, He is here with me, He will never leave me, and I am His forever.

Faith springs alive, and the flesh shuts up.

Much love!

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Interestingly, the wife brought to my attention the other day regarding the text @BarnyFife i believe is quoting, that the men heard what he was writing on the ground.

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Waiting on him said:

Interestingly, the wife brought to my attention the other day regarding the text @BarnyFife i believe is quoting, that the men heard what he was writing on the ground.

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@Waiting on him Interesting point....

Waiting on him said:

Jeremiah 31:33 KJV
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

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@Waiting on him Shows there needs to be a work of God in the heart first of all...

marks said:

Um . . . did you have a question?

If someone ascribes that thinking to me that's incorrect. And when someone with whom I've discussed this a great many times ascribes that to me, what do you call that?

Are they debating we me? Or someone else? To debate with me giving refutations that would be others as if they were to me is what a Straw Man is.

Let's discuss doctrine with clarity and completeness, without all this obfuscation and misdirection. But not everyone can do that.

Much love!

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I realize that she was not portraying your understanding of those beliefs accurately. It remains that there are those who hold such beliefs who hold them in the manner that she has described.

So, in debating, she is not only debating with you; but with every spectrum of the beliefs that you are espousing.

Therefore, while it may be a straw man as concerning your understanding of the subject, it is not a straw man as concerning the broader spectrum of those who hold similar beliefs and who take them to mean what she has said they take them to mean.

She is not only debating with your concepts but with the concepts of those who hold views as concerning this doctrine that do not coincide with yours completely. And, I think that you need to understand that she is addressing the broader issue of the doctrine in question and not only your beliefs on the doctrine in question.

Ronald Nolette said:

So which laws do you obey?

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Michiah-Imla said:

All of them.

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Do you wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin? Do you blow the trumpet every new moon?

If you don't, then you have fallen short of the glory of what God has proclaimed to be the standard of righteousness in the law.

Consider.

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

marks said:

When you are speaking with me, it's a straw man. I've never given you any indication I think that way, and I don't.

It's a straw man, and if you ascribe such to me, its a false witness.

Much love!

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I thought the law said to not bear false witness?
Isn’t it one of the ten?

justbyfaith said:

Do you wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin? Do you blow the trumpet every new moon?

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Are you calling Paul a liar?